Southwest looking to contain costs - article

[redflyer65]

But, but, that had nothing do due with Southwest....

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

But, but, that had nothing do due with Southwest....

Red, nobody gave us those rates or that contract. If WN was so gracious, they'd have "given" us your rates. The rates we got as the result of an expedited contract closure process to aid in the merger were lower than we'd turned down before. In fact, had our pilots known that we'd have been working under them much longer than 6-12 months as advertised (as well as everything else that's happened), I'm not so sure it would have passed so handedly if at all. You're also assuming that had we stood alone, we'd still be working under 2001CBA wages, about 8 years past the amendable date. While that may have happened, it's also as good of a chance that we'd be working for about the same rates now.

 

[27 driver]

Red, nobody gave us those rates or that contract. If WN was so gracious, they'd have "given" us your rates. The rates we got as the result of an expedited contract closure process to aid in the merger were lower than we'd turned down before. In fact, had our pilots known that we'd have been working under them much longer than 6-12 months as advertised (as well as everything else that's happened), I'm not so sure it would have passed so handedly if at all. You're also assuming that had we stood alone, we'd still be working under 2001CBA wages, about 8 years past the amendable date. While that may have happened, it's also as good of a chance that we'd be working for about the same rates now.

Save your key strokes luv. They will never believe we would have got a new contract. It's obvious we would have worked under the old contract for ever.

 

[redflyer65]

Nobody 'gave' you a contract? Someone did, right? Like you said, AAI management was trying to clean things up. So by that logic, SW was involved. Right? Although indirectly....agreed?

You had been working for 9yrs under your current contract. You think you would have a new contract as a stand alone in 3 months? 6 months? You weren't anywhere close to being released, so Bob would have just kept you under his thumb for probably a year+.

Southwest did give you their rate. You guys passed.

 

[Ty Webb]

Nobody 'gave' you a contract? Someone did, right? Like you said, AAI management was trying to clean things up. So by that logic, SW was involved. Right? Although indirectly....agreed?

You had been working for 9yrs under your current contract. You think you would have a new contract as a stand alone in 3 months? 6 months? You weren't anywhere close to being released, so Bob would have just kept you under his thumb for probably a year+.

Southwest did give you their rate. You guys passed.

Red, I can't figure out if you're really the moron you appear to be, or if you're just half that stupid and bluffing the rest of the way to the finish line.

Either way, it's getting pretty stale.

 

[waveflyer]

There is no SWA pilot who believes the bullish/t you guys throw out on this particular subject.

None. The most kool aid drinking one luv pilot in the group believes you guys got big raises as a result of this deal, and you'll get bigger.

If you can't find the positive in this then quit and go do something else. It's not red who's the moron with this one. You guys are. Period. End of story.

And 110% agree. It's ALL stale at this point.

 

[Ty Webb]

I meant the raise you got after SWA bought you....

Hey, MJ-

Enjoy the raise you got when you upgraded into one of our jets. . . .a raise you weren't gong to see for many years.

I get the impression, though, that you're not enjoying it very much; hell, you'd think you had lost your seat, instead of having gained someone else's.

Maybe you'd be happier if you gave it back, and went back to being an FO again . . . . 'cause you sure don't seem to be enjoying it very much.

 

[redflyer65]

And 110% agree. It's ALL stale at this point.

Agreed.

 

[Nindiri]

Hey, MJ-

I get the impression, though, that you're not enjoying it very much; hell, you'd think you had lost your seat, instead of having gained someone else's.

MJ does seem to have some anger issues. Is this something recent, or has he always been this unhappy here on the message board?

 

[PCL_128]

It's not a dis, you just argue your singular self interest

No, I simply argue what actually happens in seniority integrations, while you choose to focus on how you think it should happen. I live in reality, while you live in SWA la-la land.

Pilots make most of theirs decisions based on money, but you decide it's irrelevant

Money is not irrelevant overall, just for seniority integration. Money is fleeting. Seniority is forever.

 

[PCL_128]

But, but, that had nothing do due with Southwest....

If it did, then someone at SWA broke the law. You arguing in favor of sending Gary and VdV to jail? I'm okay with that.

 

[waveflyer]

Jail Pcl?

For a smart guy you say a lot of stupid things

 

[redflyer65]

Money is not irrelevant overall, just for seniority integration. Money is fleeting. Seniority is forever.

Hilarious. Money is irrelevant until those at AirTran decide they want SW pay, or should have gotten it with the SLI.....then magically it's very relevant. Go figure.

 

[PCL_128]

Jail Pcl?

For a smart guy you say a lot of stupid things

I'm not the one accusing them of anti-trust violations (yes, anti-trust violations can result in jail time).

For the record, I don't think they violated any anti-trust obligations. In fact, they took great pains to avoid even the appearance of it. That's why it's so ridiculous for you guys to claim that they handed orders down to settle the CBA. The reality is that we were incredibly close to a deal before the merger was even announced. We made a big move to close the deal after the merger was announced because the NMB made it clear that a release was now off the table because they weren't going to interfere with an ongoing merger. That is what closed the deal.

 

[ATLplt]

Hilarious. Money is irrelevant until those at AirTran decide they want SW pay, or should have gotten it with the SLI.....then magically it's very relevant. Go figure.

You guys don't seem to understand what quality of life means, so keep the money and give us back our seniority and Captain seats. You get the pleasure of seeing us get paid less, and we get to enjoy being home with our families and such while you're working weekends in Oakland. It's a win-win.

 

[madjack]

I'll correct, the acquisition closed the deal....incredibly close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades...SWA purchase of AAI got you a contract and a a pay raise, that's a fact, and as a SWA FO you will get another one, geez...

 

[Ty Webb]

You guys don't seem to understand what quality of life means, so keep the money and give us back our seniority and Captain seats. You get the pleasure of seeing us get paid less, and we get to enjoy being home with our families and such while you're working weekends in Oakland. It's a win-win.

Yep... and. MJ can finally relax, unbunch his drawers, and go home to whatever village he hails from.

 

[waveflyer]

And you don't seem to understand that you hitched your career to air tran which was not the most stable of companies. Went from fighting for its spot at the table and survival to a takeover target.

I'm sorry you got bought, believe me, but that doesn't mean you get to keep air tran seniority at the company that bought you who is 30 years older, five times your size with much more stability and money.

You took that risk, own up to that

Tired of the posters here acting like teenagers instead of grown men. Do none of you take responsibility for anything in your life?

At least PCL says he's going to bail. He knows it's the only move left besides letting go and joining the new team.

Same thing for those that went to virgin. Same thing for those that began at SWA in the 70's and 80's.

You aren't guaranteed anything in this gig. True at all companies for different reasons.

 

[waveflyer]

Duplicate

 

[Ty Webb]

Wave.

Thanks for the fortune cookie. See you in OAK, beeotch.

 

[waveflyer]

I'll be in Vegas
But don't knock the bay
Oakland's one of the most interesting places I've ever lived and it is booming right now

 

[Ty Webb]

I'll be in Vegas
But don't knock the bay
Oakland's one of the most interesting places I've ever lived and it is booming right now

I know....pay for OAK, view SFO....

 

[humveedriver]

Awesome point Dicko.

It shows how Southwest shared in the wealth and SWAPA was able to secure much, much better payrates while AirTran languished with the bad management team and dysfunctional union. None of that is your fault personally, just the landscape you had deal with at the time. Complete opposite at SW.

SWA just had a record profit sharing quarter. Why is SWA management asking for concessions in the form of PBS, lower sick accrual and other various work rule concessions? That's cool that management gifted you a lucrative contract back then. But they certainly seem to want it back now. I don't mind you defending the SLI based on facts like the retirement numbers. But you are either talking out of both sides of your mouth. Or you are just kool aid drinking fool.

 

[waveflyer]

You know Hum, when I was first hired I remembered being surprised by the strength of the Swapa union. Never as strong as the uniquely militant would want, but much stronger than I expected. I heard stories of cats passing out united applications to new hires and calling them all kinds of numb nuts for coming to SWA back when everyone was hiring.
We do have a history of better than average working relationship with management- and that might be disappearing in the shear size of the company and corporate nature and the "not-Herb" personality of GK. But we also do have a history of negotiating and doing our thing. A bunch of outsiders are advising this negotiation. Both sides have old school alpa negotiators contracted for this round.
Their reward for going old school last time is a really tough flight attendant union.
Critique GK if you like, but the most influential board member is Mr Cunningham, and he's still a true believer in the southwest way and having an economic advantage to good employee relations. I am confident he will exert more influence if negotiations get too nasty, and having gone through many airline negotiations, ....they aren't "nasty" at all yet. They're simply being guided as predictably as we'd expect by randy Babbitt -
Nit a surprise at all.

I would be careful to assume that it's much more than posturing so that GK can delay delay and hit his 15%. It's just one part in the manipulation of spreadsheets to get to that point. Hit it. Start the growth that has been planned for some time, then we'll see where section 6 economics lays. There isn't a rush though IMO

I bet it comes around. In 2015, I get a bit more hard core. For NOW, it's a Solid no vote from every kool aid guy I've talked to. The company isn't dumb. They know what they're proposing would never pass- even an arbitrator wouldn't call their position reasonable. So why get riled up about whatever position SWA takes when it's pretty clear they're in delay mode.

 

[Tripower455]

SWA just had a record profit sharing quarter. Why is SWA management asking for concessions in the form of PBS, lower sick accrual and other various work rule concessions? That's cool that management gifted you a lucrative contract back then. But they certainly seem to want it back now. I don't mind you defending the SLI based on facts like the retirement numbers. But you are either talking out of both sides of your mouth. Or you are just kool aid drinking fool.

They offered this contract because they KNOW it will pass if they can convince the SWApA BOD to put it to a membership vote (and I'm sure there are more than a few BOD members that have NO problem with the offer, as it stands).

With few exceptions, we always vote yes, even when it's not in our best interest (which is typically the case) and they know it. The only contract that's been turned down in the nearly 2 decades I've been here took a massive grass roots effort to refute the SWApAganda campaign and educate the pilot group about what they were really voting on, and it failed by a few % points at best. Then "we" voted in a (arguably) WORSE one.

This time around, we gave away any semblance of leverage via side letters DURING Section 6. Why WOULDN'T GK and Kompany expect us to vote for whatever they offer?

Any "militancy" displayed by the Koolie crowd is all negated when, in spite of their "vote no" talk, they vote, resoundingly, "YES", and then deny doing so.

Try finding anyone that will admit that they voted for SL 10...... I rest my case.

 

[madjack]

The above two posts by Wave and Tri are both spot on...as long as we are making good $$, concessionary, a contract is a no go, heck GK, and VdV both got big pay bumps...I agree this offer is fishing/stalling...don't think it will be the final product...PBS and codeshare are the third rail, the BOD knows this...

 

[fr8doggie]

How long have you guys been in section 6? How many sections are complete? After X years did you just see the company's openers or was what I read from SWAPA after years of negotiations?

Regards,
Fr8-

 

[redflyer65]

Just a stall plain and simple. I don't believe any on the BOD would have sent it out.

 

[vixin]

You're also assuming that had we stood alone, we'd still be working under 2001CBA wages, about 8 years past the amendable date. While that may have happened, it's also as good of a chance that we'd be working for about the same rates now.

I think you may have been going out of business or bankruptcy by now. But you know what about opinions. And we will never know what AAI may have become.

 

[Dan Roman]

I think you may have been going out of business or bankruptcy by now. But you know what about opinions. And we will never know what AAI may have become.

Or SWA if the merger hadn't happened. Don't forget the domestic market has pretty much matured. It's a big step to take if SWA wanted to fly Intl. AirTran appears to have been that ticket as well as providing entry into ATL, which SWA would have been unable on it's own.
BTW, again, on one hand your trying to tell them SWA "saved" them (which is pretty silly) and then elsewhere you say it's time SWA and AirTran pilots pull together. Can't have it both ways....you want to treat them as second class citizens you get to live with the unrest you deserve.
An AirTran pilot owes nothing to SWA, and certainly not any loyalty.