is 40 to 45 too old to get hired at a major?

[pilotyip]

If nothing else, I doubt anyone would ever regret having a degree. Mine is as useless as tits on a boar hog as is, in and of itself, but I'm glad I have it.

As opposed to not having any regrets to being successful in life in one of the skilled trades, such as ATC, pilot, mechanic, small business owner, plumber, electrician, nuclear power plant operator, Radiation Physiologist, RN, etc. All high paying jobs not requiring a college degree. All these trades requiring a much higher degree of knowledge expansion than the on-line degree in Gender studies from Bubble Bee State. We all have many thing to proud of in life and a college degree is only one of them.

The airline HR dept's are absolutely stupid to allow the on-line degree in Gender studies from Bubble Bee State to carry greater weight than other significant life accomplishments. In could be SWA's HR dept not being hung up on this stupid requirement that makes it such as great job

 

[jonjuan]

Congrats, the college only crowd hates to hear this. It makes it much harder to justify the $100K of debt. Which if you care to say?

Sounds like he had 25 years of life experience which made up for the lack of a degree. Not many pilots want to wait until 48 to get hired at a major.

 

[vetrider]

As opposed to not having any regrets to being successful in life in one of the skilled trades, such as ATC, pilot, mechanic, small business owner, plumber, electrician, nuclear power plant operator, Radiation Physiologist, RN, etc. All high paying jobs not requiring a college degree. All these trades requiring a much higher degree of knowledge expansion than the on-line degree in Gender studies from Bubble Bee State. We all have many thing to proud of in life and a college degree is only one of them.

......

I agree. I'm sure many people without degrees are proud of their accomplishments and have no regrets, as it should be. I've been in cockpits with fellow pilots of all walks: degrees, no degrees, academy grads, military, civilian, fighter pilots, tanker pilots, charter pilots, commuter pilots, you name it. Most times the only way you could tell any of that was if it came out in conversation. All those different backgrounds accomplishing the same task.

 

[pilotyip]

Sounds like he had 25 years of life experience which made up for the lack of a degree. Not many pilots want to wait until 48 to get hired at a major.

I have seen them hired in their early thirty's without degrees, maybe you build life experience faster at KYIP, what you do think?

 

[jonjuan]

Heck, there are CEOs with no college. Rare, but possible.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Not a good idea to make life choices based on anecdote rather than statistics.

 

[pilotyip]

Heck, there are CEOs with no college. Rare, but possible.

and I am going to guess they might be better CEO's to work for than the MBA types we have running companies?

Not a good idea to make life choices based on anecdote rather than statistics.

And your point is that the on-line degree from Bubblebee State makes you superior to all those unwashed without a four year degree?

 

[RJLoser]

Yip.. Here you go (2013 numbers)

Yearly income:
High School education $33,852
College Degree: $57,616

Unemployment rate:
High School education: 7.5%
College educated: 4%

Are there good people/pilots that do not have a degree? Sure. The numbers don't lie though.

It's a linear relationship between income/unemployment rate and education.

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

 

[pilotyip]

Yip.. Here you go (2013 numbers)

Yearly income:
High School education $33,852
College Degree: $57,616

Unemployment rate:
High School education: 7.5%
College educated: 4%

Are there good people/pilots that do not have a degree? Sure. The numbers don't lie though.

It's a linear relationship between income/unemployment rate and education.

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

Don't dispute those numbers at all. But for every ME grad from the U of M making 6 figures, there are four college grads working at Starbucks, because they graduated with no marketable skills. A college degree is no more a pure path to success than a post high school training in a skilled trade is a path to failure.

oldie but fits here. from the WSJ, college degrees have become so meaningless to potential employers that then know have to test graduates to see if they learned anything.
From the Wall Street Journal

Next spring, seniors at about 200 U.S. colleges will take a new test that could prove more important to their future than final exams: an SAT-like assessment that aims to cut through grade-point averages and judge students' real value to employers.

A new test for college seniors that aims to be the SAT for prospective employers is the latest blow to the monopoly long-held by colleges and universities on what it means to be well-educated. Doug Belkin and Michael Poliakoff, American Council of Trustees and Alumni V.P. of Policy, discuss on Lunch Break. Photo: AP.

The test, called the Collegiate Learning Assessment, "provides an objective, benchmarked report card for critical thinking skills," said David Pate, dean of the School of Arts and Sciences at St. John Fisher College, a small liberal-arts school near Rochester, N.Y. "The students will be able to use it to go out and market themselves."

The test is part of a movement to find new ways to assess the skills of graduates. Employers say grades can be misleading and that they have grown skeptical of college credentials.

"For too long, colleges and universities have said to the American public, to students and their parents, 'Trust us, we're professional. If we say that you're learning and we give you a diploma it means you're prepared,' " said Michael Poliakoff, vice president of policy for the American Council of Trustees and Alumni. "But that's not true."

The new voluntary test, which the nonprofit behind it calls CLA +, represents the latest threat to the fraying monopoly that traditional four-year colleges have enjoyed in defining what it means to be well educated.

Even as students spend more on tuition?and take on increasing debt to pay for it?they are earning diplomas whose value is harder to calculate. Studies show that grade-point averages, or GPAs, have been rising steadily for decades, but employers feel many new graduates aren't prepared for the workforce.

Meanwhile, more students are taking inexpensive classes such as Massive Open Online Courses, or MOOCs, but have no way to earn a meaningful academic credential from them.

HNTB Corp., a national architectural firm with 3,600 employees, see value in new tools such as the CLA +, said Michael Sweeney, a senior vice president. Even students with top grades from good schools may not "be able to write well or make an argument," he said. "I think at some point everybody has been fooled by good grades or a good resume."

The new test "has the potential to be a very powerful tool for employers," said Ronald Gidwitz, a board member of the Council for Aid to Education, the group behind the test, and a retired chief executive of Helene Curtis, a Chicago-based hair-care company that was bought by Unilever in 1996.

Only one in four employers think that two- and four-year colleges are doing a good job preparing students for the global economy, according to a 2010 survey conducted for the Association of American Colleges and Universities.

Meanwhile, GPAs have been on the rise. A 2012 study looking at the grades of 1.5 million students from 200 four-year U.S. colleges and universities found that the percentage of A's given by teachers nearly tripled between 1940 and 2008. A college diploma is now more a mark "of social class than an indicator of academic accomplishment," said Stuart Rojstaczer, a former Duke University geophysics professor and co-author of the study.

Employers such as General Mills Inc. and Procter & Gamble Co. long have used their own job-applicant assessments. At some companies such as Google Inc., GPAs carry less weight than they once did because they have been shown to have little correlation with job success, said a Google spokeswoman.

At Teach for America, which recruits college students to teach in rural and urban school districts, the GPA is one of just dozens of things used to winnow nearly 60,000 applicants for 5,900 positions. Candidates who make it to the second step of the process are given an in-house exam that assesses higher-order thinking, said Sean Waldheim, vice president of admissions at the group. "We've found that our own problem-solving activities work best to measure the skills we're looking for," he said.

The Council for Aid to Education, the CLA + test's creator, is a New York-based nonprofit that once was part of Rand Corp. The 90-minute exam is based on a test that has been used by 700 schools to grade themselves and improve how well their students are learning.

The CLA + will be open to anyone?whether they are graduating from a four-year university or have taken just a series of MOOCs?and students will be allowed to show their scores to prospective employees. The test costs $35, but most schools are picking up the fee. Among schools that will use CLA + are the University of Texas system, Flagler College in Florida and Marshall University in West Virginia.

The CLA + is scored on the 1600-point scale once used by the SAT "because everyone is familiar with that," said Chris Jackson, director of partner development at the Council for Aid to Education. Instead of measuring subject-area knowledge, it assesses things like critical thinking, analytical reasoning, document literacy, writing and communication.

Cory LaDuke, a 21-year-old senior at St. John Fisher, said he had mixed feelings about taking the CLA + but understood why employers might be skeptical of some graduates because "some people don't work that hard and fake their way through it," he said.

"It kind of sucks that an employer can't trust your GPA, but that's the way it is right now, so this also an opportunity," said Mr. LaDuke. "It's another way to prove yourself."

Other groups also have been seeking ways to better judge graduates' skills. The Lumina Foundation, which aims to boost the number of college graduates, is offering a way to standardize what students should know once they earn a degree. The MacArthur Foundation has helped fund a system of "badges" for online learning to show mastery of certain skills. Last Thursday, President Barack Obama said he wants the federal government to devise a ratings system to gauge colleges' performance based on student outcomes.

Meanwhile, established testing companies are introducing new tools. Earlier this year, Educational Testing Service, which developed the Graduate Record Exam, announced two certificates to reward high marks on its Proficiency Profile, which assesses critical thinking, reading, writing and math.

And ACT, the nonprofit that administers the college-admission exam of the same name, has a National Career Readiness Certificate, which measures skills such as synthesizing and applying information presented graphically.

Educational Testing Service was surprised to learn through a survey last spring that more than a quarter of businesses were using the GRE to evaluate job applicants, said David Payne, an ETS vice president.

Sean Keegan, a 2011 graduate of Tufts University, has posted his GRE on his resume because he landed in the 97th percentile, even though he isn't applying to graduate school. "I think it shows I'm relatively smart," said Mr. Keegan, who is looking for work in finance. "So far, I've gotten a lot of positive feedback from employers."

Write to Douglas Belkin at [email protected]

 

[RJLoser]

All your article states is that there is variance in the "smartness" of college grads. High School grads aren't even considered! This points to the fact that a college degree is only a starting point. Even more education would help an individual stand out.

Is the college grad applicant for the job an idiot? Maybe. But...the high school grad can't even get through the door to interview.

 

[pilotyip]

But...the high school grad can't even get through the door to interview.

Well except at a smart airline like SWA as per above

 

[RJLoser]

93% hired at SWA have a degree. Kudos to the 7%. All I have done in life is to make decisions to keep the most doors open. A degree was one of the building blocks in that idea.

 

[GogglesPisano]

And your point is that the on-line degree from Bubblebee State makes you superior to all those unwashed without a four year degree?

Superior? No. More employable, with better career earnings? Unmistakably, statistically speaking-- especially in the piloting profession.

 

[HA25]

Hired at HAL at 43 and had a 50 year old in my class.... Lower career expectations is the only drawback.

 

[HA25]

We agree there are many ways to develop yourself, a college degree is only one of them. But the college only elitist crowd just doesn't see it that way.

BTW: Things are getting so upside down in this business that JUS is now recruiting for pilots with college degrees. Now not just any college degree, we could care less about a Mechanical Engineer from the University of Michigan. But a degree from Bumblebee State in Aviation Technology that meets the 1000 hour restricted ATP, that is the breakfast of champions.

Hey Yip, you still peddling that pilot shortage rumor for the ATA and Cohen?

 

[pilotyip]

Hey Yip, you still peddling that pilot shortage rumor for the ATA and Cohen?

Not me, I am a follower of good ole Avbugs's decree there will never be a pilot shortage. I am a preacher of the coming hiring boom that started back in 2012 and has not even approached it maximum rate of acceleration yet. Just hold on it is going to be a wild ride

 

[CRAWDADDY]

I agree with Yip while also agreeing with the stats. Those people who make up the degreed stats would have very similar earnings without their degrees. It's just that they read the stats and got their degrees.

You know males are behind females in degrees now. It appears they are making an economic versus an emotional decision and skipping academe and delayed adulthood. That's a shame because we lack truly educated people in the workforce and society. Our populace is too easily swayed by demagoguery. But you ain't gonna get educated in college anymore; it's for indoctrination now.

 

[waveflyer]

Is the English major going to be writing a book inflight? It can't hurt for a pilot to know a little something about airplanes. What about common sense....wasting your money on a useless degree???

Why would an English degree be useless in your world? And why would you assume an English major who becomes a pilot doesn't have just as much practical knowledge about flying airplanes as the A&P.

Are you suggesting pilots with an A&P have a leg up in the hiring process? Bc there is significant data to show otherwise.

Now, I'll agree that at today's prices and wages many degrees do waste money- that doesn't equate to a useless degree. This war in education has to stop.

"1782. (Notes on the State of Virginia) "Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories. And to render them safe, their minds must be improved to a certain degree."

1785 August 19. (to Peter Carr) "An honest heart being the first blessing, a knowing head is the second."[1]

1786 August 13. (to George Wythe) "I think by far the most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness...Preach, my dear Sir, a crusade against ignorance; establish & improve the law for educating the common people. Let our countrymen know that the people alone can protect us against these evils [tyranny, oppression, etc.] and that the tax which will be paid for this purpose is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings, priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance."[2]

1786 August 27. (to Thomas Mann Randolph) "Knowledge indeed is a desirable, a lovely possession."[3]

1787 December 20. (to James Madison) "Above all things I hope the education of the common people will be attended to ; convinced that on their good sense we may rely with the most security for the preservation of a due degree of liberty."[4]

1789 January 8. (to Richard Price) "...wherever the people are well informed they can be trusted with their own government..."[5]

1810 May 6. (to the Trustees of the Lottery for East Tennessee College) "No one more sincerely wishes the spread of information among mankind than I do, and none has greater confidence in it's effect towards supporting free & good government."[6]

1816 January 6. (to Charles Yancey) "if a nation expects to be ignorant & free, in a state of civilisation, it expects what never was & never will be."[7]

1816 April 24. (to Dupont de Nemours) "Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day . . . . I believe it [human condition] susceptible of much improvement, and most of all, in matters of government and religion; and that the diffusion of knowledge among the people is to be the instrument by which it is effected."[8]

1818 January 14. (to Joseph C. Cabell) "Now let us see what the present primary schools cost us, on the supposition that all the children of 10. 11. & 12. years old are, as they ought to be, at school: and, if they are not, so much the work is the system; for they will be untaught, and their ignorance & vices will, in future life cost us much dearer in their consequences, than it would have done, in their correction, by a good education."[9]

1818 January 14. (to Joseph C. Cabell) "A system of general instruction, which shall reach every description of our citizens from the richest to the poorest, as it was the earliest, so will it be the latest, of all the public concerns in which I shall permit myself to take an interest."[10]

1818 August 4. "The objects of this primary eduction determine its character and limits. These objects are To give to every citizen the information he needs for the transaction of his own business; To enable him to calculate for himself, and to express and preserve his ideas, his contracts and accounts, in writing; To improve by reading, his morals and faculties; To understand his duties to his neighbors and country, and to discharge with competence the functions confided to him by either; To know his rights; to exercise with order and justice those he retains; to choose with discretion the fiduciary of those he delegates; and to notice their conduct with diligence, with candor and judgement; And, in general, to observe with intelligence and faithfulness all the social relations under which he shall be placed. To instruct the mass of our citizens in these, their rights, interests and duties, as men and citizens, being then the objects of education in the primary schools, whether privet or public, in them should be taught reading, writing and numerical arithmetic, the elements of mensuration...and the outlines of geography and history."[11]

1820 September 28. (to William C. Jarvis) "I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society, but the people themselves: and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their controul with a wholsome discretion, the remedy is, not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. this is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power."[12]

1822 October 21. (to C.C. Blatchly) "I look to the diffusion of light and education as the resource to be relied on for ameliorating the condition, promoting the virtue, and advancing the happiness of man."[13]

1824 March 27. (to Edward Everett) "The qualifications for self-government in society are not innate. They are the result of habit and long training."[14]

- Thomas Jefferson

 

[2000Easyguy]

Waveflyer:


1990 1 June. "We will hire someone with less experience, less education, and less expertise, than someone who has more of those things and has a rotten attitude. Because we can train people. We can teach people how to lead. We can teach people how to provide customer service. But we can?t change their DNA."

Herb Kelleher.

 

[waveflyer]

How is that mutually exclusive?

Herb had a law degree

GK and MVdV have MBAs

And 93%+ of Swapa pilots have undergrad degrees
15% of us graduate level