Air Force to UAL New Hire

[waveflyer]

I find regional pilots complety lost when coming into the on-demand busienss. Had a lot of ComAir guys coming here a while back. They are not proficient in steam dials, hand flying skills, and flying with only VOR and DME on the Jet Routes. They have no idea how to clear customs at 0400 at KLRD, or deal ICCS to get clearnace to off load Cargo in Mexico. Plus them seem to have no idea how to use a J-Bar and skates to move cargo on the DA-20. I guess 121 regional pilots are not very well prepared to go into the on-demand cargo world.

None of them? Again with the superlatives

Do mil guys often deal with those same things?
So what's your point? Your company is the civilian background stepping stone that I'm lobbying for. Would you argue that a civilian background in your operation would or would not prepare a candidate for the Majors?

But I'll tell you what, we'll give you our senior guys who struggle with glass and trade them for your comair pilots

 

[waveflyer]

How did they overcome the 737 type requirement that SWA had in place for all those years?

You know we have to interview to get hired at swa right?
Not just get a type?

They had to have that

 

[waveflyer]

Yeah I skipped the regionals and went right to the majors. That Part 121 ops section of ground school was so difficult, I don't know how I made it through.

Re-read your posts and insert your own name, then come back and tell me what it sounds like. And yes, your back room hand shake military pilot selection process is entirely made up.

Who said that?
There was a handshake selection process at swa at one point.
The military has a waiver for many things and politics and needs play a factor.
One of my friends at the rj operator I worked was able to get both eye and height waivers, but that involved motivating selectors through politics and who you know. I don't begrudge that. Every career benefits from an individual's relationships and recommendations. That's just as true in the civilian world, you just wouldn't have such an artificial barrier as height and eyes.
I am not saying that ones grades in flight school are negotiable.
Clear enough?

It was easy for me the first time I went through it as well. Why do you get to skip the regionals when we didn't?
Do you see the arrogance? How come a military pilot can be "qualified" with much LESS total flight time?

The term qualifications in the majors is turned on its head. The people who fly the least applicable type of op are qualified with much less flight time. Heavy mil pilots need more and their flying is much more associated. And civilian guys who are doing the same exact job, need the most.

You don't answer AC, you just deflect- how on earth does that make sense. You're the one defending it. Let us all know.

 

[waveflyer]

Flew fighters 20 years. Now I fly MD-11s around the world into places like Japan, China, Germany, and Brazil when not beating up the domestic system.

Cool thing about flying fighters first is while I once envied the cool places my friends in 141s got to go, I eventually got to go to some cool places too.

My college roommate that went to the regionals and is now an AA captain had a pretty cool life. Mine is pretty similar now too.

So?we all (hopefully) get to that point without too much heartache or angst.

However--and for the guys who did fly the fast iron, or take Hercs into Baghdad on NVGs, or refueled a C-5 or C-17 over the cold North Atlantic, there probably is some smug satisfaction. It rests with concept of "hey?.I did THAT?" And THAT--whatever it was, was something very, very few people ever get to do. And that makes it special?

My own little piece of satisfaction came from not raging in Stony MOA or flying low level tapping Tornados in Germany (both very fun, BTW..) but leading 8 ships into Iraq to enforce the (idiotic) No Fly Zone. The satisfaction in that came from knowing that it wan't the CIC, the MAJCOM CC, the Squadron Commander, or anyone else that for the next 6-8 hours was going to enforce national policy. It was ME--and 7 of my comrades in arms. How many people can say they were an instrument of policy in their lives? My dorky little circles in the sky pale in comparison to what some of the guys on this board have done in combat, but again--for a few hours of their lives, they have made history--not just read about it.

If I am a lesser airline guy because I wasted so much time first driving Eagles around the globe, I can live with it. Next time I am drinking Caipirinhas in Brazil or sipping a beer in Cologne or a some wine in France, I'll be sure to reflect on how superior those guys who came out of the regionals before working up SWA are to me. And I'll sulk. And I'll have to have another round or two to ease my pain. But I'll get through it?.

Albie, I was hoping you'd chime in. It is well documented how much I respect your opinion and definitely respect emerald coast.

Here though, you argue the merits of a military career, and it sounds pretty amazing. Definitely a worthwhile human experience and career. And service.
I have not said you're "a lesser airline guy"- I said your experience is less qualified than civilians who have actually been doing the job for many years.

The last part makes you sound like general lee, mixed in with the exact weird superiority that we've been talking about- feel good about what you did- it's great- , but you come into the civilian world to make money and maybe it ought to be normal to have done that job before getting the top end job??

How can that even be argued against?

You paid many many dues doing other things than the job you're trying to get.

With all that you've done in your career, why is it offensive to spend a year or two in the right seat somewhere- getting those 121 rules down BEFORE getting the six figure job.

Besides we all know how fedex is about hiring retired military pilots. Had many friends go through your purple nugget hazing- literally having your probation pilots make you coffee- reprimanding pilots in training for not using exact verbiage per manual, then proceeding to use military jargon with no clue how dumb it looks to the civilian who was just reprimanded.

There's a lot of groupthink over there Albie
You've got a foothold, but that doesn't make for a good safe pilot group. To dans thinking, I'd imagine fedex could use some more civilian backgrounds

 

[Turtle21]

Your arguments are a self fulfilled prophecy.



You act cocky. Pilots call you on it. You convince yourself it's bc of an insecurity on our part. ??



The single biggest reason pilots don't like mil pilots is bc of their lack of perspective

Lack of perspective... I would say you might be on to something.

P.S. I think civilian pilots are really cool. I especially like flying with the ones that bitch about mil pilots for two days on a three day trip (on day three they ask me what planes I've flown )

 

[AirCobra]

Who said that?
There was a handshake selection process at swa at one point.
The military has a waiver for many things and politics and needs play a factor.
One of my friends at the rj operator I worked was able to get both eye and height waivers, but that involved motivating selectors through politics and who you know. I don't begrudge that. Every career benefits from an individual's relationships and recommendations. That's just as true in the civilian world, you just wouldn't have such an artificial barrier as height and eyes.
I am not saying that ones grades in flight school are negotiable.
Clear enough?

It was easy for me the first time I went through it as well. Why do you get to skip the regionals when we didn't?
Do you see the arrogance? How come a military pilot can be "qualified" with much LESS total flight time?

The term qualifications in the majors is turned on its head. The people who fly the least applicable type of op are qualified with much less flight time. Heavy mil pilots need more and their flying is much more associated. And civilian guys who are doing the same exact job, need the most.

You don't answer AC, you just deflect- how on earth does that make sense. You're the one defending it. Let us all know.

It's simple really. What did you start flying in? Was it a jet? Air Force guys start in jets. What is more like a jet? A jet or a Cessna 172? So likely for your first 250 you were behind in experience, and unqualified for turbine powered aircraft. If you did any instructing what did you instruct in? Was it a jet? Well Air Force guys instruct in jets like T-1's. What is more like a jet? A T-1 or a Cessna 172? When you went for you ME training what was it in? Was it a King Air or Beechjet? If not you were behind in experience and qualifications again. I could go on and on but you get the picture.

So by your standard were you even remotely qualified for your first regional job? Were you able to adapt? Did anyone suggest you be penalized by getting turbine experience before taking the controls of that Beech 1900 or RJ. Should you have flown cancelled checks in an MU-2 or or cargo in a Caravan?

Wave again your politics assertion still does not hold water. It is to get a larger pool of applicants, and all you have to do is fill out a form. It is not exclusive, its inclusive. I didn't know filling out a form was political. Not to mention even with a waiver does not mean you will get selected. Again by your standard is getting a waiver for your Class 1 Medical some sort of political deal, because if that is the case you civilian pilots must have an in with AME's.

I am not deflecting anything. Nothing is turned on its head but you. As far as I can see you started out about 250 hours behind in turbine experience from most military trained pilots. Why don't you go fly skydivers in a ratty C90 until you catch up.

 

[AirCobra]

You know we have to interview to get hired at swa right?
Not just get a type?

They had to have that

How did they ever get a 737 type with no CRM skills? Wait let me guess, the FAA gives those away to military guys.

 

[zasca]

OMG.... This thread is still going???

Jebus Christ.

Hopefully we all realize that Major airlines hire guys into the right seat and they will have 5-20 years to figure out how to run a cockpit competently, regardless of where they come from. If they still suck at CRM or flying or whatever by then, they probably wouldn't have learned it with a stint in the regionals. 91, 121, 135, Mil all have screwups. It's up to the pilot group and the training dept to teach a culture, and not tolerate idiot behavior. You don't like an airline's hiring board? Maybe you won't like working there either....

 

[scoreboardII]

Dig for dig
But sorry, never tried- never wanted to fly military-

It wasn't your extra special pre screens (that ABSOLUTELY predict a successful comrade :-/ ) that kept me out of your game

No- it's not the act of taxiing that gets them- it's that they never dealt with ohare and laguardia so Vegas can trip them up
It's law of primacy- they weren't taxiing or flying civilian 121 ops, so the pace, te business, the smoothness, the complexities aren't as natural- or else why would so many just blindly slam on the brakes when a Ramper crosses the wands?
Way to follow orders from a guy making $15/hr kernals- a normal pilot would know where the 737 nose wheel is and the mark they have to put it on and somewhat anticipate, not just myopically follow the wands.

And that's just one of 300 nuances civilians pick up in their initial experience that mil guys don't get bc they're excelling at dropping bombs and flying formation. Cool to talk about- but no applicability to what we do.

And as with all these critiques- if the military was such a good training ground- why do mil types struggle ?
I'm not making it up-

Wave, last time I checked, no ones shooting at you trying to land at Ohare, so, no biggy, FMC, hook it up, follow directions, land.

The ONLY guys I know have trouble at the training center are civy guys who didn't have fast jet time.

 

[waveflyer]

AC- point taken on your first 250 hours
Most don't jump into turbine until 1000 hours
And yes, I did fly cancelled checks for a time.

How does that explain needing 3 times the amount of flight time when it's all said and done and pilots start getting calls to interview?

Still haven't answered that.

Done. You win when it comes to primary training

(Though I have seen cessnas hand major airline pilots of all backgrounds their asses- so I'm not sure that underpowered light airplanes should be disrespected entirely- I find when I'm out and about and doing that light flying I'm a bit better skill wise in the Gup, but I digress.)

Please realize that there are plenty of civilian programs that have tough standards and a lot of civilians don't deserve this myth that they bought their ratings and didn't earn it.

All I can go by is what I hear and what I experience online-
Is it subjective ? Sure

But I stand by the message that civilians have earned, by our daily performance and attitudes, an equal spot at the hiring pool.
That's my only point.