Air Force to UAL New Hire

[ROSWELL41]

So true but now the DAL new hires look like the new hires at UAL 15 years ago. You have to look at FedEx now for dumb accidents caused by MilOnly pilots.

What exactly do they look like? Care to elaborate?

 

[Dan Roman]

Wasn't the L-1011 crash in 1988. Weren't most of the former military guys Vietnam era? Weren't most of the Vietnam era fighters/strike aircraft two seat? (F-4, F-111, A-6, F-14, F-100D, F-105).

The push for CRM was due not to single seat guys, but the "Captain is God" system the arilines had set up dating back to the days of Pan Am Clippers. The landmark United DC-8 accident and the KLM/Pan Am 747 collision triggered CRM training throughout the industry. Both found copilots unwilling to speak up because of the "Skygod" culture.

The story may be true but the analysis isn't there. Hiring all the military transport or civilian pilots in the world wouldn't have changed a culture that purposefully mimiced ocean travel, and had been around since the 1920's.

You are spot on that CRM came about due to the "Skygod" culture endemic in the airline industry. But it is a fact that DAL was found lacking in CRM and the FAA did lay blame on the fact that they had hired so many pilots with a single pilot background. (BTW F4 F111 etc you mentioned is still a single pilot operation)

 

[bluesideup1]

I was part of American Eagle when the AA pilots started furloughing. We had a flow back agreement with AA that stated AE would take and put the AA pilots in the left seat as they flowed back. Unfortunately AA had hired right up until the furlough and they had plenty of 1,500 hour single seat fighter pilots that had been at AA less than 6 months. Now given time most of those fighter jocks will learn the ropes and become productive Airline pilots. That was not the case when they were being sent back into the Captains position at Eagle though. It didn't take the FAA or the poor F.O. long to realize that the fighter guys had almost no transitional experience to flying Passengers aircraft in a crew environment. There was problems with WX as none of those guys have ever really dealt with WX, Deicing, crowded terminal environments, CRM, ect. The FAA removed all of those low time fighter pilots from their captain positions and made them get at least 3,000 hours before they would allow them to become P.I.C. again. I guess they just weren't too impressed with all those Night vision low altitude bombing runs after all.

 

[Turtle21]

I was part of American Eagle when the AA pilots started furloughing. We had a flow back agreement with AA that stated AE would take and put the AA pilots in the left seat as they flowed back. Unfortunately AA had hired right up until the furlough and they had plenty of 1,500 hour single seat fighter pilots that had been at AA less than 6 months. Now given time most of those fighter jocks will learn the ropes and become productive Airline pilots. That was not the case when they were being sent back into the Captains position at Eagle though. It didn't take the FAA or the poor F.O. long to realize that the fighter guys had almost no transitional experience to flying Passengers aircraft in a crew environment. There was problems with WX as none of those guys have ever really dealt with WX, Deicing, crowded terminal environments, CRM, ect. The FAA removed all of those low time fighter pilots from their captain positions and made them get at least 3,000 hours before they would allow them to become P.I.C. again. I guess they just weren't too impressed with all those Night vision low altitude bombing runs after all.

You seem to think this is evidence of Military pilots being less qualified but you are mistaken. You see everyone knows fighter pilots always brag about winning the yellow snow contest, and FAA guys are real sensitive about always losing the yellow snow contest (the real one, not the figurative one). Fighter guys just don't know when to keep their mouth shut. You will notice the heavy mil guys were smart and didn't PO the FAA in the middle of a check ride by challenging them to a yellow snow contest.

Moral: Don't challenge the FAA Examiner to a yellow snow contest unless you are absolutely, positively, 100% sure that you will lose, which is pretty dam+ unlikely.

 

[mesaba13]

Disclaimer: Regional Civilian guy

The Military guy is and always has been a known quantity who was able to complete training on schedule under duress. They complete missions where the flying part is secondary to other high workload tasks. With CRM school at the airlines these days the transition for a military guy should be low threat. Suggesting that a military guy start at a regional is ridiculous. That being said we all know idiots from every background

 

[Jack Campbell]

A civilian pilot with a proven training record is also a known quantity. Multiple type ratings, dozens of Part 135 and Part 121 training events and thousands of hours of experience should level the playing field, but it seems there is still the notion on this board the mil guy is superior. Doesn't make sense. There are a lot of very qualified, safe civ pilots vying for top jobs and any airline that doesn't give them serious consideration is ignoring a strong talent base.

 

[Turtle21]

A civilian pilot with a proven training record is also a known quantity. Multiple type ratings, dozens of Part 135 and Part 121 training events and thousands of hours of experience should level the playing field, but it seems there is still the notion on this board the mil guy is superior. Doesn't make sense. There are a lot of very qualified, safe civ pilots vying for top jobs and any airline that doesn't give them serious consideration is ignoring a strong talent base.

The reason so many folks give fighter guys $h!t is because so many people feel inferior to them, or maybe they just deserve it. But in any case the more folks give them $h!t the more superior it makes them feel.

 

[user912]

I was part of American Eagle when the AA pilots started furloughing. We had a flow back agreement with AA that stated AE would take and put the AA pilots in the left seat as they flowed back. Unfortunately AA had hired right up until the furlough and they had plenty of 1,500 hour single seat fighter pilots that had been at AA less than 6 months. Now given time most of those fighter jocks will learn the ropes and become productive Airline pilots. That was not the case when they were being sent back into the Captains position at Eagle though. It didn't take the FAA or the poor F.O. long to realize that the fighter guys had almost no transitional experience to flying Passengers aircraft in a crew environment. There was problems with WX as none of those guys have ever really dealt with WX, Deicing, crowded terminal environments, CRM, ect. The FAA removed all of those low time fighter pilots from their captain positions and made them get at least 3,000 hours before they would allow them to become P.I.C. again. I guess they just weren't too impressed with all those Night vision low altitude bombing runs after all.

Found outside the confines of FI


the demands of regional aviation with its compressed training schedules can be a rude awakening. When the parent company of American Airlines and American Eagle (AMR) got the Eagle pilots to sign an 18 year contract it did so not by offering better working conditions at Eagle but rather offering the carrot of a potential ?flow through? of its senior pilots to American. The unanticipated events of 9/11 brought, instead, a ?flow back? of junior American Airlines pilots, like Brian Schiff, to American Eagle. Flowing back as well were some American Airlines new hires with very little civilian time who found it difficult to get through training.

 

[Jack Campbell]

The reason so many folks give fighter guys $h!t is because so many people feel inferior to them, or maybe they just deserve it. But in any case the more folks give them $h!t the more superior it makes them feel.

Did I give fighter guys a hassle in my post? No. Read my post again.

What I'm saying is that both backgrounds have a lot of really qualified pilots and neither group should be looked at as superior. Capiche?

Some people need to put words in others' mouths to make it appear they are superior and if that describes you, that's wonderful!

 

[Turtle21]

Did I give fighter guys a hassle in my post? No. Read my post again.

What I'm saying is that both backgrounds have a lot of really qualified pilots and neither group should be looked at as superior. Capiche?

Some people need to put words in others' mouths to make it appear they are superior and if that describes you, that's wonderful!

You seem awfully defensive...
Do you consider yourself to be included in "so many folks"?

 

[Jack Campbell]

You seem awfully defensive...
Do you consider yourself to be included in "so many folks"?

You sound like one of those guys who needs to put words in others' mouths to make yourself seem superior. :laugh:

 

[Dan Roman]

You sound like one of those guys who needs to put words in others' mouths to make yourself seem superior. :laugh:

You point was clear to me and I'm sure most. It's spot on that equally competent pilots come from all kinds of backgrounds. Someone who thinks they are better invariably turns out to be amongst the weakest.

 

[Dan Roman]

Dan Southwest is known to taxi fast because quick turnarounds are essential to their business model. They average something like 32 minutes while United was doing 40 minutes for a guppy and even longer for an A-320. The overruns at Burbank and Midway were for the same reasons. They were in a hurry.

Not saying this is true or not, but food for thought. A culture that encourages rushing is not a healthy one in our line of work. You brought up Burbank and Midway, now Branson and LGA? Couple that with hiring primarily from a single demographic, Military, and SWA misses the benefit of having RJ pilots with extensive experience operating out of high density and low density airports all over the US.
You might not want to dismiss Waves point of view so easily, SWA could be setting itself up for a situation similar to what DAL went through in the 80's.

 

[AirCobra]

(BTW F4 F111 etc you mentioned is still a single pilot operation)

Yeah but its a crew just the same. One can't do the mission without the other.

 

[Mamma]

Dan,
First, I'm betting you have no idea on the numbers of ex-fighter pilots at SWA. Second, I'll bet you do t know the background of the pilots in the accidents you mentioned. Third, most captains spend years in the right seat operating into all sorts of airports. Fourth, you have to look at each case individually if you are going to call out a specific background as contributory to an accident. Was it an ex fighter guy? How long had he/she been at SWA, and what are the circumstances. Comparing SWA of today with DAL of the 80s is ridiculous. I've never flown with an ex-fighter FO but the captains I've flown with, at 2 major airlines have all been great. I never said civi pilots were bad and I don't buy the argument that ex mil guys cause an unhealthy environment.

 

[Mamma]

Dan,
First, I'm betting you have no idea on the numbers of ex-fighter pilots at SWA. Second, I'll bet you do t know the background of the pilots in the accidents you mentioned. Third, most captains spend years in the right seat operating into all sorts of airports. Fourth, you have to look at each case individually if you are going to call out a specific background as contributory to an accident. Was it an ex fighter guy? How long had he/she been at SWA, and what are the circumstances. Comparing SWA of today with DAL of the 80s is ridiculous. I've never flown with an ex-fighter FO but the captains I've flown with, at 2 major airlines have all been great. I never said civi pilots were bad and I don't buy the argument that ex mil guys cause an unhealthy environment.

 

[AirCobra]

Not saying this is true or not, but food for thought. A culture that encourages rushing is not a healthy one in our line of work. You brought up Burbank and Midway, now Branson and LGA? Couple that with hiring primarily from a single demographic, Military, and SWA misses the benefit of having RJ pilots with extensive experience operating out of high density and low density airports all over the US.
You might not want to dismiss Waves point of view so easily, SWA could be setting itself up for a situation similar to what DAL went through in the 80's.

Yeah but Wave is only talking about one class and making it sound like it a regular practice by SWA. Civilian only pilots at SWA still outnumber military pilots by 10%.

While SWA has had some incidents, and the fatality at MDW, their safety record has been outstanding, especially considering all the takeoffs and landings they do. Would you then credit that to all the military pilots they hired? It is pretty easy to dismiss Wave point because his opinion is so colored with bias. Anyone could easily turn those stats on their head because of Southwest's exemplary safety record.

 

[AirCobra]

So true but now the DAL new hires look like the new hires at UAL 15 years ago. You have to look at FedEx now for dumb accidents caused by MilOnly pilots.

The Fed Ex accidents in 1997 and 2009 were caused by a difficult airplane to land in a cross wind (MD-11). Neither had anything to do with military or civilian pilots. I will also add that if Fed Ex hired a military only fighter pilot he likely spent a good amount of time as an FE learning the ropes.

 

[AirCobra]

A civilian pilot with a proven training record is also a known quantity. Multiple type ratings, dozens of Part 135 and Part 121 training events and thousands of hours of experience should level the playing field, but it seems there is still the notion on this board the mil guy is superior. Doesn't make sense. There are a lot of very qualified, safe civ pilots vying for top jobs and any airline that doesn't give them serious consideration is ignoring a strong talent base.

No the notion is that military training is superior because in most cases its more structured, more consistent, and has a more rigorous selection and attrition component. That is all that is being said.

Everything else you have read is pretty much the bias of a few people and includes military pilots can't taxi, SWA hires all military pilots, military pilots are selected by back room deals, and fighter pilots can never learn to operate in a crew environment. That stuff is all made up.

No military pilots said that civilian pilots were untalented. All that was said is military guys received better training. Anyone who has done both will tell you that.

 

[waveflyer]

Disclaimer: Regional Civilian guy

The Military guy is and always has been a known quantity who was able to complete training on schedule under duress. They complete missions where the flying part is secondary to other high workload tasks. With CRM school at the airlines these days the transition for a military guy should be low threat. Suggesting that a military guy start at a regional is ridiculous. That being said we all know idiots from every background

I'm not saying "start" at a regional

But go get a year or two of 121 experience first so they aren't "learning on the job" while pissing on their civilian counterparts?

Yes. Absolutely

The best of us are exactly that- the military pilot who also went to the regionals. I've yet to meet one of them that pisses on civilian experience

 

[waveflyer]

You seem awfully defensive...
Do you consider yourself to be included in "so many folks"?

Your arguments are a self fulfilled prophecy.

You act cocky. Pilots call you on it. You convince yourself it's bc of an insecurity on our part. ??

The single biggest reason pilots don't like mil pilots is bc of their lack of perspective

 

[waveflyer]

You point was clear to me and I'm sure most. It's spot on that equally competent pilots come from all kinds of backgrounds. Someone who thinks they are better invariably turns out to be amongst the weakest.

You guys are confusing the terms "better" and "qualified & experienced"

My heart burn over majority military hires isn't a talent issue- it's an experience issue

I don't believe we should have pilots "learning on the job" at a top end major when thousands who wouldn't be are vying for the same class date

 

[Dan Roman]

Dan,
First, I'm betting you have no idea on the numbers of ex-fighter pilots at SWA. Second, I'll bet you do t know the background of the pilots in the accidents you mentioned. Third, most captains spend years in the right seat operating into all sorts of airports. Fourth, you have to look at each case individually if you are going to call out a specific background as contributory to an accident. Was it an ex fighter guy? How long had he/she been at SWA, and what are the circumstances. Comparing SWA of today with DAL of the 80s is ridiculous. I've never flown with an ex-fighter FO but the captains I've flown with, at 2 major airlines have all been great. I never said civi pilots were bad and I don't buy the argument that ex mil guys cause an unhealthy environment.

Your first bet would be a safe one as I said myself I didn't know. I'm just looking at this string and speculating on Wave saying classes were almost all Mil. The best and safest option is having a strong mix of experience from various backgrounds. Hiring all civ and ignoring the high tech compressed training and demanding flying the mil pilots bring to the table would be just as bad as ignoring the high density extensive weather background the civ pilots bring to the table. It sounds like SWA has in fact hired from both. Good. I see stories on here about PHX being an extension of Luke AFB? That would be unhealthy and less safe as anything less than a solid mix of pilots from various backgrounds is not the best option. Having a clique of one type of pilot in an airline that looks down on another is not the safest option by any means.

 

[waveflyer]

Yeah but Wave is only talking about one class and making it sound like it a regular practice by SWA. Civilian only pilots at SWA still outnumber military pilots by 10%.

While SWA has had some incidents, and the fatality at MDW, their safety record has been outstanding, especially considering all the takeoffs and landings they do. Would you then credit that to all the military pilots they hired? It is pretty easy to dismiss Wave point because his opinion is so colored with bias. Anyone could easily turn those stats on their head because of Southwest's exemplary safety record.

How did you find that info?
Source?

We at SWA live with the history of meet and greet non interviews that created our Phx base

Ask any of our FAs and ops agents who the biggest pains are. Most difficult: those who pretend they're still in the military- swear some of these guys are pissed they aren't being saluted

It's an earned opinion I've got.

Want me to not have those opinions? Get your guys acting like do^chebags to stop being snags and normal out.

Just flew a trip with a great ex mil guy. Heavies -but it had me rethinking the extent I'm taking this rant)

 

[waveflyer]

No the notion is that military training is superior because in most cases its more structured, more consistent, and has a more rigorous selection and attrition component. That is all that is being said.

Everything else you have read is pretty much the bias of a few people and includes military pilots can't taxi, SWA hires all military pilots, military pilots are selected by back room deals, and fighter pilots can never learn to operate in a crew environment. That stuff is all made up.

No military pilots said that civilian pilots were untalented. All that was said is military guys received better training. Anyone who has done both will tell you that.

"Never"
I've been very clear to avoid superlatives and make the point that a majority of ex mil are well and good- but there is a big enough percentage to level critique- you're the one saying those critiques apply to all ex mil.


"All"

"All" of it's made up?
That stuff never happens?

The point you won't acknowledge: that that very good excellent military training never once trained a pilot on 121 ops.

That's the point. Commuter and regional training is nothing but structured- you clearly have not been through that.

 

[waveflyer]

Dan- well said

Spot on

 

[pilotyip]

I find regional pilots complety lost when coming into the on-demand busienss. Had a lot of ComAir guys coming here a while back. They are not proficient in steam dials, hand flying skills, and flying with only VOR and DME on the Jet Routes. They have no idea how to clear customs at 0400 at KLRD, or deal ICCS to get clearnace to off load Cargo in Mexico. Plus them seem to have no idea how to use a J-Bar and skates to move cargo on the DA-20. I guess 121 regional pilots are not very well prepared to go into the on-demand cargo world.

 

[AirCobra]

How did you find that info?
Source?

We at SWA live with the history of meet and greet non interviews that created our Phx base

Ask any of our FAs and ops agents who the biggest pains are. Most difficult: those who pretend they're still in the military- swear some of these guys are pissed they aren't being saluted

It's an earned opinion I've got.

Want me to not have those opinions? Get your guys acting like do^chebags to stop being snags and normal out.

Just flew a trip with a great ex mil guy. Heavies -but it had me rethinking the extent I'm taking this rant)

I posted those stats earlier in this thread and they came from Southwest. The ratio is 45% former military/55% civilian trained at least as of 2011 when the article was printed in the Air Force Times.

Anyway "my guys" are your guys now. You have a problem, you deal with it.

 

[AirCobra]

"Never"
I've been very clear to avoid superlatives and make the point that a majority of ex mil are well and good- but there is a big enough percentage to level critique- you're the one saying those critiques apply to all ex mil.


"All"

"All" of it's made up?
That stuff never happens?

The point you won't acknowledge: that that very good excellent military training never once trained a pilot on 121 ops.

That's the point. Commuter and regional training is nothing but structured- you clearly have not been through that.

Yeah I skipped the regionals and went right to the majors. That Part 121 ops section of ground school was so difficult, I don't know how I made it through.

Re-read your posts and insert your own name, then come back and tell me what it sounds like. And yes, your back room hand shake military pilot selection process is entirely made up.

 

[AirCobra]

We at SWA live with the history of meet and greet non interviews that created our Phx base

How did they overcome the 737 type requirement that SWA had in place for all those years?