Air Force to UAL New Hire

[waveflyer]

I'm sorry. We should stop joking. This is a very serious thread for you and we aren't taking it seriously.

No- it's just a couple guys on FI not taking it seriously-

I've gotten a positive response from people who actually matter

Bottom line, background shouldn't matter- do not think that at SWA that terrible reputation in civilian ops isn't well earned-

My only point-
Want a good reputation- go get one
Until then don't be pissed when the people who have lived and breathed 121 ops get a bit upset when our pilots get left out of the hiring process in favor of military pilots who haven't done it

Please don't think me figuring out that an FI pissing contest is a total waste of time is the same as you winning the debate

Go to a regional - get some airline experience-
Then maybe you guys won't be afraid of taxiing when you upgrade

 

[Mamma]

You should really have a talk with your CP. I don't know what kind of training program you have at SWA but from reading your comments, it sounds terrible! 8-12 yrs in the right seat should be enough experience to be a proficient captain. Maybe it was the lack of 1900 time? Military guys never taxi the plane either. We just shut the formation down on the runway and have them towed off. It's great! Sorry you missed the cut but no need to act like a jilted lover!

 

[waveflyer]

Dig for dig
But sorry, never tried- never wanted to fly military-

It wasn't your extra special pre screens (that ABSOLUTELY predict a successful comrade :-/ ) that kept me out of your game

No- it's not the act of taxiing that gets them- it's that they never dealt with ohare and laguardia so Vegas can trip them up
It's law of primacy- they weren't taxiing or flying civilian 121 ops, so the pace, te business, the smoothness, the complexities aren't as natural- or else why would so many just blindly slam on the brakes when a Ramper crosses the wands?
Way to follow orders from a guy making $15/hr kernals- a normal pilot would know where the 737 nose wheel is and the mark they have to put it on and somewhat anticipate, not just myopically follow the wands.

And that's just one of 300 nuances civilians pick up in their initial experience that mil guys don't get bc they're excelling at dropping bombs and flying formation. Cool to talk about- but no applicability to what we do.

And as with all these critiques- if the military was such a good training ground- why do mil types struggle ?
I'm not making it up-

 

[waveflyer]

And AC

Disabilities?

Really?

You just sound exactly like the ass your coworkers all talk about when you say stuff like that

 

[Mamma]

Dig for dig
But sorry, never tried- never wanted to fly military-

It wasn't your extra special pre screens (that ABSOLUTELY predict a successful comrade :-/ ) that kept me out of your game

No- it's not the act of taxiing that gets them- it's that they never dealt with ohare and laguardia so Vegas can trip them up
It's law of primacy- they weren't taxiing or flying civilian 121 ops, so the pace, te business, the smoothness, the complexities aren't as natural- or else why would so many just blindly slam on the brakes when a Ramper crosses the wands?
Way to follow orders from a guy making $15/hr kernals- a normal pilot would know where the 737 nose wheel is and the mark they have to put it on and somewhat anticipate, not just myopically follow the wands.

And that's just one of 300 nuances civilians pick up in their initial experience that mil guys don't get bc they're excelling at dropping bombs and flying formation. Cool to talk about- but no applicability to what we do.

And as with all these critiques- if the military was such a good training ground- why do mil types struggle ?
I'm not making it up-

Once again, this sounds like a SWA training problem and not a mil problem. A guy doesn't get hired at SWA and made a capt the next day. It's at least a decade to upgrade and if they can't figure out where the nose wheel is then I say SWA has major problems. Unless your full of excrement.

Really though, I think you're making this job a lot harder than it really is. It's not hard to taxi. If I guy can taxi a B-1 or C-5, I don't think a 737 is going to trip them up. It's not hard to fly a STAR, an ILS or taxi.

I'm with you in that RJ dudes should get more respect and interviews. You just don't need to insult the mil guys to prove your point. Im still a bit skeptical on your numbers though.

 

[waveflyer]

I make it hard?

I think you're defensive-

To me, the attitude of that post is common and part of the problem.

Things become easy when one puts in the work to make them easy. Many military spent so much energy perfecting very dangerous types of flying that they don't feel it necessary to work on the nuisances of airline ops. Often spending much of the career living in the past glory days

I get what you're saying about training, but that's not the issue here in my opinion- it's cultural-
I didn't find near as many arrogant military pilots in past airlines-
And I have to stress it's much less than half- but there is a considerable element- and when you combine that with the learning curve, it makes no sense not to hire more experienced civilians

Disparage military?

It's civilians who have been disparaged in the hiring process -
And though 26/30 is unique- i am done taking a backseat to pilots who aren't as experienced as we are

 

[pilotyip]

Your guys military rivalry humor is amazing- so funny

No seriously, it's so funny

So
So
Funny

As if we don't see this in the airline world. Anybody remember Gen Lee?

 

[tankerhead]

i am done taking a backseat to pilots who aren't as experienced as we are

You're done? Are you gonna start whacking guys that haven't paid their dues? Or tell them your opinions about their sh1tty skills and convince them to go work at Gulfstream? How are you "done"?

 

[AirCobra]

And AC

Disabilities?

Really?

You just sound exactly like the ass your coworkers all talk about when you say stuff like that

WTF are you talking about? I had a friend who lost a bunch of fingers on both hands in an accident and fought with the FAA to get his ratings and had to demonstrate enough that he had enough finger strength to fly an airplane, and is now an airline pilot. I have also read stories about people who lost limbs having the drive and determination to change the way the FAA looks at people with disabilities. These are inspiring stories and great accomplishments, much more so than being able to write a big check to pay for a job which you seem to think is the pinnacle of flight training.

 

[AirCobra]

I make it hard?

I think you're defensive-

To me, the attitude of that post is common and part of the problem.

Things become easy when one puts in the work to make them easy. Many military spent so much energy perfecting very dangerous types of flying that they don't feel it necessary to work on the nuisances of airline ops. Often spending much of the career living in the past glory days

I get what you're saying about training, but that's not the issue here in my opinion- it's cultural-
I didn't find near as many arrogant military pilots in past airlines-
And I have to stress it's much less than half- but there is a considerable element- and when you combine that with the learning curve, it makes no sense not to hire more experienced civilians

Disparage military?

It's civilians who have been disparaged in the hiring process -
And though 26/30 is unique- i am done taking a backseat to pilots who aren't as experienced as we are

You have yet to prove that the 26/30 were less experienced, nor have you responded to the fact there are more civilian trained pilots at SWA than military trained pilots. I gave you the benefit of the doubt but now you are just being a weenie. Give it up. You proved you are a bag of prejudices instead of a thinking and reasoning person.

 

[AirCobra]

You're done? Are you gonna start whacking guys that haven't paid their dues? Or tell them your opinions about their sh1tty skills and convince them to go work at Gulfstream? How are you "done"?

The idle threats of the anonymous message board. I have been waiting three years for a guy to tell the Women's Bible Study group at my church that they are equivalent to the Taliban.

 

[AirCobra]

No- it's not the act of taxiing that gets them- it's that they never dealt with ohare and laguardia so Vegas can trip them up
It's law of primacy- they weren't taxiing or flying civilian 121 ops, so the pace, te business, the smoothness, the complexities aren't as natural- or else why would so many just blindly slam on the brakes when a Ramper crosses the wands?

There was a KC-135 and a C-130 unit at ORD for over 20 years. What did those guys do? There are also military units still collocated with several major airports. I think the FAA determined the problem with taxiing was confusing and irregular signage, not military training.

So this isn't complex taxiing requiring smoothness:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtZ_3ZvFkhg

And we all know someone who could do this could never possess the skill necessary for Part 121 taxiing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWKAWABHmiU


I would like you to offer any proof of what you just said. You have really gone over the deep end here.

 

[Mamma]

Disparage military?

It's civilians who have been disparaged in the hiring process -
And though 26/30 is unique- i am done taking a backseat to pilots who aren't as experienced as we are

If things at SWA are so bad you really need to "be done taking the backseat" and get an appointment with your boss. Leave us mil guys out of it. You boss established the "hook-up" program for mil guys and trained them to a standard SWA finds acceptable. SWA wants mil guys to the regional pilot's detriment. That sucks and quite frankly, I'm surprised. You've been cheerleading SWA with pom-poms for a long time in regards to what a great culture they have and how they only hire the best. In fact, much of this has been at the expense of Air Tran guys and how they don't measure up. With 1/2 your pilots being crappy mil guys who "dont get it" I'm imagining Air Tran guys must really suck to you!

Anyway, if you're really done taking the backseat and not just a windbag, elevate your concerns. Call your union too! They can help end this travesty.

 

[Flopgut]

If things heat up with Russia and we ramp up militarily, how about some of us that didn't get in 20+ years ago take a turn? You guys can stay home and BBQ drink beer and hang with the family, fly for the airline, sound good?

 

[waveflyer]

You're done? Are you gonna start whacking guys that haven't paid their dues? Or tell them your opinions about their sh1tty skills and convince them to go work at Gulfstream? How are you "done"?

Do you learn how to "whack guys" in the military?

Not my thing but knock yourself out

No- I've said that- I don't begrudge any pilot taking advantage of any opportunity- but I'll work with SWA on the thing

 

[waveflyer]

WTF are you talking about? I had a friend who lost a bunch of fingers on both hands in an accident and fought with the FAA to get his ratings and had to demonstrate enough that he had enough finger strength to fly an airplane, and is now an airline pilot. I have also read stories about people who lost limbs having the drive and determination to change the way the FAA looks at people with disabilities. These are inspiring stories and great accomplishments, much more so than being able to write a big check to pay for a job which you seem to think is the pinnacle of flight training.

Wonderful. What's that got to do with this thread?

Military amputees have returned to flight status at times too-

 

[waveflyer]

Mamma, you're right
AC- I don't have the background info on every pilot- just that 26/30 are military- don't even know how to access that info or if that would be a good thing-
This particular thread is fairly useless though and no great debate is being had
You guys are nothing but defensive and getting me to go down that muddy path too

The only point is that civilians should not be discriminated against in the hiring process. And if only 4 make it to a class of of 30- however unusual it points to a flawed process

 

[Mamma]

Defensive? First, you need to make up your mind on what your issue is. This is what I assume it to be:

You think there is a shady deal going on to hire military guys at the expense of civilian guys. You believe fighter guys, not necessarily heavy mil guys are unqualifid because they have no experience in this line of work. Fighter guys should go to a regional first and get 121 experience.

If I am correct in my assumption, you probably could have made your argument a little more clear and tactful. But what fun would FI be if you did that.

 

[waveflyer]

Yes-

That is a concise view of the argument I'm making

And I say that in regards to fighters not because they shouldn't be proud of what they've done- I say it bc they're often very weak in crm and airliner ops- but it shouldn't be a disparagement anymore than requiring helicopter pilots to go build fix wing time is a disparagement- it's about being qualified and ready for the top end job from day 1 and not applying the military pecking order to a civilian op that has no applicability

If I were good with words I wouldn't need 8000 posts
At least I admit I'm on full blown troll status

 

[AlbieF15]

Flew fighters 20 years. Now I fly MD-11s around the world into places like Japan, China, Germany, and Brazil when not beating up the domestic system.

Cool thing about flying fighters first is while I once envied the cool places my friends in 141s got to go, I eventually got to go to some cool places too.

My college roommate that went to the regionals and is now an AA captain had a pretty cool life. Mine is pretty similar now too.

So…we all (hopefully) get to that point without too much heartache or angst.

However--and for the guys who did fly the fast iron, or take Hercs into Baghdad on NVGs, or refueled a C-5 or C-17 over the cold North Atlantic, there probably is some smug satisfaction. It rests with concept of "hey….I did THAT…" And THAT--whatever it was, was something very, very few people ever get to do. And that makes it special…

My own little piece of satisfaction came from not raging in Stony MOA or flying low level tapping Tornados in Germany (both very fun, BTW..) but leading 8 ships into Iraq to enforce the (idiotic) No Fly Zone. The satisfaction in that came from knowing that it wan't the CIC, the MAJCOM CC, the Squadron Commander, or anyone else that for the next 6-8 hours was going to enforce national policy. It was ME--and 7 of my comrades in arms. How many people can say they were an instrument of policy in their lives? My dorky little circles in the sky pale in comparison to what some of the guys on this board have done in combat, but again--for a few hours of their lives, they have made history--not just read about it.

If I am a lesser airline guy because I wasted so much time first driving Eagles around the globe, I can live with it. Next time I am drinking Caipirinhas in Brazil or sipping a beer in Cologne or a some wine in France, I'll be sure to reflect on how superior those guys who came out of the regionals before working up SWA are to me. And I'll sulk. And I'll have to have another round or two to ease my pain. But I'll get through it….