Air Force to UAL New Hire

[Mamma]

Bottom line is pilot hiring is something we have no control over. The airline does what it wants. Not worth getting bent out of shape over.

 

[Tripower455]

Bottom line is pilot hiring is something we have no control over. The airline does what it wants. Not worth getting bent out of shape over.

Yup......

 

[Dan Roman]

Its 8 PM and I am gonna have to put the whiskey down coz I am about to agree with Wave 100%

Well, I'm on my third glass of wine.... his post sounds spot on to me.

 

[DCAA320]

Well, I'm on my third glass of wine.... his post sounds spot on to me.

That's what's scaring me

 

[Dan Roman]

That's what's scaring me

Well the reality is we all not as far apart as we sometimes sound. Personally I don't judge anyone by some posts on a web board.

 

[pilotyip]

Which is still as similar as helicopters are as far as 121 ops go

The same goes for 135 single pilots ops, so what is your point?

 

[bluesideup1]

The same goes for 135 single pilots ops, so what is your point?

Yes but 135 single pilots ops experience only gets you into a regional not a major.

 

[pilotyip]

Yes but 135 single pilots ops experience only gets you into a regional not a major.

Oh! so they can be trained the same as a military pilots, a helicopter pilots, or pilots from a failed airline. Anyone with a certain level of skill and desire can be a successful pilot doesn't matter what background you come from.

 

[waveflyer]

That's never been the point Yip-

The point is what experience and background gets you opportunities at top tier majors.

It's not ego or talent or any other quality- there is a big double standard when it comes to civilian vs military-
And even military (heavies) vs military (fighters)
Among mil backgrounds, why on earth does the military pecking order of fighters first apply to airlines when the cargo and refuelers experience is much much more applicable?
Fighters continually have competitive minimums much lower than their transport category counterparts and it makes no sense.

All those old excuses of "we brief for 4 hours..." Wonderful, that's a ding against you because we don't brief like that in the airlines. "Fighter pilots may only get 200 hours a year..."

Well that should be a ding against you, not an excuse to lower minimums because you will fly more than that- even fedex will fly double that -

As Albie pointed out there are many many reasons why flying fighters is a worthwhile career.
Great service and an amazing life experience.

Little of which qualifies one to be an airline pilot until one has DONE something to be qualified -

None of us had applicable flight experience until we started flying in the airlines- my issue is when pilots are getting "on the job training" for the most basic of 121 ops while at the end goal highest paying job.

That's not right

 

[Turtle21]

That's never been the point Yip-

The point is what experience and background gets you opportunities at top tier majors.

It's not ego or talent or any other quality- there is a big double standard when it comes to civilian vs military-
And even military (heavies) vs military (fighters)
Among mil backgrounds, why on earth does the military pecking order of fighters first apply to airlines when the cargo and refuelers experience is much much more applicable?
Fighters continually have competitive minimums much lower than their transport category counterparts and it makes no sense.

All those old excuses of "we brief for 4 hours..." Wonderful, that's a ding against you because we don't brief like that in the airlines. "Fighter pilots may only get 200 hours a year..."

Well that should be a ding against you, not an excuse to lower minimums because you will fly more than that- even fedex will fly double that -

As Albie pointed out there are many many reasons why flying fighters is a worthwhile career.
Great service and an amazing life experience.

Little of which qualifies one to be an airline pilot until one has DONE something to be qualified -

None of us had applicable flight experience until we started flying in the airlines- my issue is when pilots are getting "on the job training" for the most basic of 121 ops while at the end goal highest paying job.

That's not right

You should have pursued a career in HR. It's not too late.

 

[CRAWDADDY]

None of us had applicable flight experience until we started flying in the airlines- my issue is when pilots are getting "on the job training" for the most basic of 121 ops while at the end goal highest paying job.

Bingo!
But secretly, I'm grateful for military-only pilots. They've given me the opportunity to provide remedial training at a hirer pay rate. Without them, I doubt very much my services would've been needed and I'd be just an ordinary line holder.

 

[madjack]

Ok, not a fighter guy, but a product of Navy flight training...it's a demanding program (as is the USAF's)...spent 20 years in two pilot aircraft...I SUCKED the first 6 months on the line...flying plane no problem...pace of ops was not what I was used to...commuter pilots are much better initially at the majors...then the military guys catch up...

 

[CRAWDADDY]

Maybe, they should catch up at the regionals.
No wait, that was already said

 

[Turtle21]

Ok, not a fighter guy, but a product of Navy flight training...it's a demanding program (as is the USAF's)...spent 20 years in two pilot aircraft...I SUCKED the first 6 months on the line...flying plane no problem...pace of ops was not what I was used to...commuter pilots are much better initially at the majors...then the military guys catch up...

Well, yeah. You were Navy, but not F-14.

Seriously though, our average flight day is 1 to 3 legs at the majors and it is a challenge to keep up... I mean starting engines during push is rocket science.

Even so, why should we plague the regionals with our slow work ethic on their 6 to 8 leg days? We are eminently more qualified to go straight to the majors, obviously! (Just saying, we might not be "qualified" for the majors, but then we are even less qualified for the regionals.)

 

[waveflyer]

Talking money here turtle. Seniority. Longevity.
Only one group is "learning on the job", at a major. Learning while accruing longevity for pay. Building experience while new hires that know what they're doing get hired underneath them.

You have it flipped. You'll get your ass handed to you at a regional- and figure it out. And then you'll be very prepared for your major airline experience. Plus, you'll realize how good major schedules really are, and might not be so quick to vote yes on that contract that outsources more.

 

[booo]

Really?! uke:Many times over!! Slight exaggeration I'm thinking.
I'd like to see you choose the pilot when your family has to fly out of an airport in Colorado, after a ski vacation. Somehow I doubt Mr. 300hrs is going to be selected.

Like the guys that flew Clinton's limo in to Indian mount?

 

[booo]

Why is the failure rate so much higher then for civilian background guys compared to military background guys. BTW. I have flown with 19000 hour pilot I would not trust my family with

Do you have data to back this up?

And I've flown with career military that I couldn't trust with a pre flight. So?

 

[booo]

Well I have my own data from my airline that you don't have access to

Yep! I hear you do! Those that don't suck up to your military Highness don't make it, do they.

And yes, I know who you are.

 

[pilotyip]

Do you have data to back this up?

And I've flown with career military that I couldn't trust with a pre flight. So?

Sure I do, otherwise I would not have posted it. JUS does not attract many astronaut candidates. Our civilian and military hires are not competitive at their time of hire for the better jobs in the industry. The civilian background pilots are normally very low time or ones who have bounced around the lower end of the aviation industry. Their failure rate run in the 15% range. The military are ones who have not flown for years, or rotor wing pilots with little fixed wing. Their failure rate is like 2%. The execption being when lay offs are taking place at other placers in the industry then we hire DAL, AAL, ABX, NJ pilots who are furloughed and they all do a great job with no failure rate.

Yep! I hear you do! Those that don't suck up to your military Highness don't make it, do they.

And yes, I know who you are.

Has nothing to do with it, they don't make it when they demonstrate they can not meet our standards. Same as any other flying job.

 

[82spukram]

I think what this pilot on your jumpseat might have been saying is what most of us said going through Indoc in Sept here at UAL. Indoc was a mess! the power point were disorganized, we saw the same pointless slide about 50 times and others slides would be randomly put like exception 3585 and then the next slide would talk about rest requirements, and then onto what time to show up to the airport. Now I have worked for both a regional and another major (ExpressJet and JetBlue) this was not very well organized, and the the guys teaching it knew they were no longer going to be teaching after Oct 1 so moral was not the highest plus the SLI just came out.

Your jumpseater had a legitimate complaint and unless his sim parnter (not his or her job) wanted to sit down and explain the basics like why as the flying pilot you take your hand off the thrust levers on takeoff, the cultural of safety and CRM at UAL, or WTF is exception 3585 (which if you are prior Part 121 although frustrating going through this indoc it was really only a review but if this is the first time seeing these rules and regs you need to learn it). I believe after a couple of weeks of Indoc being moved to DEN things were improving and it was becoming more organized.

Disclaimer I am not knocking what was historically a good indoc program in Houston at CAL, I am saying that in its last days in Houston no one really wanted to spend the time to clean up the product at that point and just checked the boxes and tried to get everyone through it. (The two guys who taught indoc really were nice guys and one of them i keep in touch with to ask questions from time to time and he usually gets back to me fairly quickly so once again no complaints about them either just the program sucked)