Air Force to UAL New Hire

[Mamma]

Hap Arnold, said only college educated people could be successful in flight training. Robert Lovett, WWII Asst Sec of War for Air, Who may have saved the US in WWII. He showed we needed quantity, not quality.

We will need 100K pilots per year, we will not get that many physically qualified college educated pilots. He said the college was not needed to fly an airplane, so he devised a series of tests to identify those traits and knowledge levels needed to be successful in pilot training.

He found that many college educated people could not pass this test, but many high school graduates could. These 19 year old pilots proved their worth all over the globe, flying equipment under conditions that would test almost all of us on this board.

Tests similar to those are still in use today and they are very predicative on success in a military flight training program.

I remember those tests. AFOQT (Air Force Officer Qualifying Test) to start. Then the Basic Aptitude Test. Then the PCSM score that basically added up everything into a point total that is very good at determining success. Then there is flight screening to weed out those that can't hack it before the real spending starts. After all that, a candidate goes to Brooks AFB, TX and gets a full day of medical tests on their eyes, heart and reflexes to further eliminate those that might have issues in the future. The wash-out rate at pilot training due to these tests, is much much lower now.

 

[AirCobra]

I remember those tests. AFOQT (Air Force Officer Qualifying Test) to start. Then the Basic Aptitude Test. Then the PCSM score that basically added up everything into a point total that is very good at determining success. Then there is flight screening to weed out those that can't hack it before the real spending starts. After all that, a candidate goes to Brooks AFB, TX and gets a full day of medical tests on their eyes, heart and reflexes to further eliminate those that might have issues in the future. The wash-out rate at pilot training due to these tests, is much much lower now.

But but but Wave said it was all political! You mean there are aptitude tests? I though I could get F-18's with a sign off from my local alderman. Who knew?

 

[waveflyer]

You're right- I don't know

What I do know is how bad many military pilots perform online at the job we ALL have now, how entitled and cocky a significant percentage of military pilots are, and how naive and confused they are about things I learned at my first commuter.

If you want to talk day in and day out about how excellent mil pilots are in military ops- sure- I hope so and by all accounts try are-

What they are on the civilian side is qualified for a regional-

Spend a year or two at a regional and THEN AND ONLY THEN, should they be qualified for a top end MAJOR

And see how ridiculous this is? Because it's military pilots who are getting the hook up- 87% military in the January class at SWA-
If you think that's right, then you don't know the civilian world anymore than I know military

And btw- you should talk to your military 9/11 furloughs who went to republic and skywests - or even the delta early out 76 capts- talk about getting their a$$ handed to them living the civilian life... Did you EVER fly a line before your major airline job Mamma?
135, 121 turboprop or RJ?
If not- pot meet kettle

Maybe you have a bit more defensiveness bc you have earned your spot and as a C17 driver actually do have a sense of crm and what it's like to fly transport jets-
Most military guys are great-
That can be lost in this discussion-

I am advocating FOR civilian pilots that are getting about 20% of the opportunities right now. That is bullish/t and you know it.

 

[waveflyer]

But but but Wave said it was all political! You mean there are aptitude tests? I though I could get F-18's with a sign off from my local alderman. Who knew?

And you think a bunch of pilots don't get disqualified for BS who then go on to have very good civilian careers?

Maybe we should all take aptitude tests when we're 8 years old and never get an opportunity to do anything else.

That would be great wouldn't it comrades?

 

[AirCobra]

This was not well said at all. You like it because you feel it supports your very narrow/skewed and inaccurate viewpoint.

"Airline flying is more than handling the plane. Being in 121, especially regionals, bombards the crew with distractions that are operationally removed from mil flight crews.

Absolute horsecrap. You think mil guys don't have major distractions? There are major distractions all the time. Malfunctions, wingman issues, weather at the target, command post, airspace and so on are the norm. Fighter guys, whom you seem to loathe, are hands-down the experts at handling distractions and maintaining an extremely high level of SA. That's why your boss wants them. I've been flying 9 years in the majors and almost 20 in the air force, both active duty and reserve so I can speak on this with credibility whereas you cannot. You do not fly with ex-mil FOs. The ex-mil captains you fly with are probably just fine. It's that HUGE chip on your shoulder that cause you to have an unrealistic expectation.

It thought that was an interesting comment too. As if getting shot at or a misplaced round killing your own folks on the ground wasn't the ultimate in distraction. Even in benign training events when we did rocket fire, if I elevated too much or shot outside the lateral limits of the engagement envelope I could lob a rocket into a town. I think checking the weather, reading an ops manual, or making a hotel reservation pales in comparison.

I agree with you that airline flying and the flying I do now was/is pretty easy, especially in comparison to what I did before. Wave likes to make it like he is Fred Noonan trying to fly Howland Island with an ADF. I guess it is what he must do to feel better about himself and his perceived inadequacies.

 

[waveflyer]

This was not well said at all. You like it because you feel it supports your very narrow/skewed and inaccurate viewpoint.
.[/COLOR]

No-
It's what we see out online and have for years. Deer in the headlights mixed with arrogance

Sorry you don't like it- but you're arguing for unqualified mil pilots to keep on skipping a step and not getting good 121 experience before they get the top end jobs.

I disagree with that and will continue to. These jobs are too valuable for short cuts

 

[Mamma]

You're right- I don't know

What I do know is how bad many military pilots perform online at the job we ALL have now, how entitled and cocky a significant percentage of military pilots are, and how naive and confused they are about things I learned at my first commuter.

If you want to talk day in and day out about how excellent mil pilots are in military ops- sure- I hope so and by all accounts try are-

What they are on the civilian side is qualified for a regional-

Spend a year or two at a regional and THEN AND ONLY THEN, should they be qualified for a top end MAJOR

And see how ridiculous this is? Because it's military pilots who are getting the hook up- 87% military in the January class at SWA-
If you think that's right, then you don't know the civilian world anymore than I know military

And btw- you should talk to your military 9/11 furloughs who went to republic and skywests - or even the delta early out 76 capts- talk about getting their a$$ handed to them living the civilian life... Did you EVER fly a line before your major airline job Mamma?
135, 121 turboprop or RJ?
If not- pot meet kettle

Maybe you have a bit more defensiveness bc you have earned your spot and as a C17 driver actually do have a sense of crm and what it's like to fly transport jets-
Most military guys are great-
That can be lost in this discussion-

I am advocating FOR civilian pilots that are getting about 20% of the opportunities right now. That is bullish/t and you know it.

I'm all for civilian pilots getting more jobs. Take that up with your boss though. Don't insult us. You sound like an idiot when you try to disparage an large group of people. When people do that in other walks, they are called racists, bigots and whatever type of "phone." You cannot back up anything you are saying.

 

[AirCobra]

And you think a bunch of pilots don't get disqualified for BS who then go on to have very good civilian careers?

Maybe we should all take aptitude tests when we're 8 years old and never get an opportunity to do anything else.

That would be great wouldn't it comrades?

You came up with the notion that military selection was all political. I am still trying to figure that one out.

 

[AirCobra]

No-
It's what we see out online and have for years. Deer in the headlights mixed with arrogance

Sorry you don't like it- but you're arguing for unqualified mil pilots to keep on skipping a step and not getting good 121 experience before they get the top end jobs.

I disagree with that and will continue to. These jobs are too valuable for short cuts

If guys on the line don't know what they are doing maybe your training department has a problem.

 

[Mamma]

No-
It's what we see out online and have for years. Deer in the headlights mixed with arrogance

Sorry you don't like it- but you're arguing for unqualified mil pilots to keep on skipping a step and not getting good 121 experience before they get the top end jobs.

I disagree with that and will continue to. These jobs are too valuable for short cuts

These guys are far more qualified according to your boss. That's he is recruiting at the AF bases. Deer in the headlights? Please. We had a guy in my 737 initial class who flew SAAB 340s for Colgan. Had no idea what anything glass was; GPS; RVSM or ETOPS. Big deer in the headlights but we did not think anything less of him. He went through training and after a few extra sims and a little more time on the line, he was just as good. The point is....he was trainable just like the mil guys.