Air Force to UAL New Hire

[scoreboardII]

Again spoken from the perspective of the white male. We often choose not to go places where we feel we will not be welcome. Ever discussed it with a female pilot/ I have and they all say the same thing, that they feel they have to be better, that they get no slack, and constantly have to prove themselves. They also say they need to help change attitudes and try to attract more young women into aviation. You can't with a straight face tell me the cultures of airline and military pilots is open and welcoming to women.

Don't you think that 25 years later, if everything was just fine that it should reflect society a little more than it does?

Your going to rethink this.

Go look at the accident rate for part 121 women compared to men. Sorry, but it's heavily slanted against your argument that "they are the same".

 

[Tripower455]

Well the stats don't lie. The "300 hour wonder" hiring was nowhere near as prevalent as you made it out to be or perhaps you just misremember, yet you obviously harbor plenty of resentment.

BS. They were hiring anyone with a commercial, instrument and a pulse, provided they weren't white males.

Of course I harbor resentment. I watched that show for almost a decade.

I resent(ed) UAL to the point that when I finally got an interview, 8.5 years after I sent my first app, I blew it off. I briefly considered going, and completely screwing with those aholes during the interview (aerobatics in the sim, wear jeans, tee shirt and leather jacket etc.), but I already had a major job and DEN was too far away to bother. It might've been fun though...

Karma's a bitch and I have NO regrets. The irony is that they actually did me a favor, career wise, as I am far better off where I am, but that doesn't make discrimination, in any form, OK.

During my time in the commuters from '86 til mid '95, EVERY (numbering 40-50) female or "minority" person I knew of was either scheduled for an interview with UAL, was waiting for a class date, or, in a (very) few select cases, had interviewed and been turned down. The vast majority had well under 1000 hours when called for an interview (most of the Captains at the commuters were hovering around 5-6k hours), and at least 10 were below 500. One of the airlines I worked at went to PFT in the early '90's, and the FOs that were subsequently hired were particularly unqualified, yet EVERY "minority" pilot "hired" during that period was somewhere in the UAL system.

Ironically, all but one of the folks that were turned down were by far the most qualified of the lot, and should've gotten the job. The one that wasn't was a complete basket case and had no business in an airplane, much less an airliner. She's now a Fed.

The first time I submitted an app to UAL was spring of '88. A friend of mine (female) submitted hers within a few days of mine. We were pretty comparable, education/time/experience wise (roughly 2000 hours... in my case, more than half of that in scheduled, turbine service). She had also been involved in an "at fault" accident a few years prior and had received certificate action as a result. My record was (and still is), totally clean. She was called for an interview within a month, and got hired a month later. I got called for an interview 8.5 years later. We've kept in touch over the years, and she's a relatively senior widebody Captain now and doing great.

Don't you think that may be part of the problem?

G.M.A.F.B.

How the hell am I part of the problem? I wasn't the one hiring less or even unqualified pilots while there were thousands of qualified pilots available for the jobs.

The problem was entirely with UAL's ridiculous and DISCRIMINATORY hiring practices. I don't blame the folks who got the jobs, heck, they'd have been foolish not to take them. Bypassing thousands of perfectly qualified pilots to hire those that were far less qualified, except for their color/sex was the problem.

I ask again have you ever discussed the situation with a African American pilot or a woman?

LOL.. Yeah, plenty. Most agree that it was heavily skewed in favor of skin color or sex, rather than ability. One of my best friends is a female pilot, who TURNED DOWN UAL (moron) in '93, solely due to the stigma attached to being a female pilot at UAL. I thought she was nuts then, and told her as much. I still think she's nuts and tell her every time I see her. She is a great stick and would've excelled there, btw.

You don't have to answer but honestly when you see a woman or African American pilot do you automatically think they received special consideration?

Truthfully, I only think that of UAL types that were hired between 85 and 95 or so, since they got the deal of a lifetime. Many didn't have to pay their dues like the rest of us. Good for them, bad for us, but hey, their parents and grandparents were discriminated against (as if mine weren't....), so it's OK!

Have you ever thought that about a white male pilot?

Only AF fighter types.....

Actually, I know of plenty of white guys who got a leg up due to who they knew or were related to, but that was nowhere near the wholesale discrimination perpetrated by UAL for nearly a decade.

 

[HowardBorden]

Ever discussed it with a female pilot/ I have and they all say the same thing, that they feel they have to be better, that they get no slack, and constantly have to prove themselves.

That very well may be true on the line, but I don't believe it to necessarily be true in an interview.

 

[Tripower455]

:laugh: Figures you would say that. Don't you see the inherent contradiction in the post? Let me help you: Why do women not choose aviation, a job always listed as a top ten career for pay and satisfaction? Why would that be the case if everything was just fine?

I have no idea, but maybe, until UAL lowered their hiring minimums, they were smart enough to realize that they'd have to put a ton of time in at lousy jobs, like everyone else, in order to someday (maybe) get a good paying major job, so they avoided it. Once the game was heavily skewed in their favor, a few more (but still far fewer numbers than males) pursued it, since they knew they'd not have to endure poverty wages, no job security and lousy QOL for a decade or so before the career paid off.

They say that women are smarter than men.

Somehow, I am to blame that more women don't choose this career? Well, maybe the fear of the possibility of actually having to fly with me is enough to send them elsewhere.

I went to an aviation college, and in my class, we started with roughly 100 guys, and less than 10 girls. FWIW, the % of guys that dropped out was about equal to the number of girls. Not sure what that proves, but the ones that stuck it out, both male or female, were dedicated and did it for the love of flying. The ones that dropped out either ran out of cash, or just didn't have it in them, again, it was the same whether they were male or female.

Do you think groups like the 99's, the WIA or the Whirlygirls are just making stuff up about the challenges women face?

I've heard of the '99s and WIA, but can't speak, on any level, about their motivations, what they think, or anything else regarding them, as I am not a member of either and have never been asked to join.

Never heard of the Whirlygirls, but I assume they're heli pilots?

I've also heard of the QB, but I'm apparently not cool enough to be one of them, so my knowledge of their activities is on par with the above groups.

What does any of that have to do with UAL's discriminatory hiring practices during the '80's and '90s?

 

[Tripower455]

This is well said^^^
A lot of that was well earned-

Plus low minimums always exist so that a well deserving captain's kid or intern could slide in- I don't begrudge that

It's certainly not for affirmative action- those are entirely different rules and regulators

Discrimination is OK, as long as the "correct" group is being discriminated against...... Got it.

Wait......... Aren't you the person railing against military guys because they get some kind of perceived advantage and are unqualified when seeking a major job, but it's OK for an (actually) under qualified, yet somehow "well deserved" captain's kid or intern to get those jobs?

 

[waveflyer]

Trip, you could take away all the girls and minorities and still have 9/10 jobs

That's a lot different than military backgrounds taking up 87% of a class

 

[SWA Bubba]

Where do you get the 55/45 number bubba?

As far as computer algorithms - I've dealt with those at two airlines

Garbage in garbage out
There are many ways to manipulate that and it almost always is

The 55/45 number was quoted earlier in this thread from an 2011 interview in Air Force Times, by Capt Rocky Calkins, Southwest's Pilot Hiring Manager. It jives with what I've seen on the line and have heard from chiefs over the years: "slightly more civilian-trained than military-trained." I've also heard that Southwest has a smaller percentage of military-trained than most other majors. As a practical matter, at least half the FOs that I fly with came from the regionals (it seems like a hell of a lot more than half), and there was over 60% civilian-trained in my newhire class, so it all backs up the interview statement.

Like I said, civilian-trained pilots ARE getting their equal (if not slightly greater than equal) representation here. Are you really saying that's not good enough?

As far as the recent class you keep harping on, it's one class. I don't know what the deal with that was. And while it's true that in any computer algorithm, garbage in yields garbage out, I can tell you that Southwest's military-trained pilots are NOT constantly manipulating some third-party's computer (i.e. a company other than Southwest Airlines) to ensure their buddies are hired. If you really believe that, you probably have conspiracy issues. The days of the handshake hookup is a thing of the past--a computer decides who's interviewed.

Bubba

 

[AirCobra]

The days of the handshake hookup is a thing of the past--a computer decides who's interviewed.

Bubba

A secret computer programmed by the military no doubt!

 

[AirCobra]

I have no idea, but maybe, until UAL lowered their hiring minimums, they were smart enough to realize that they'd have to put a ton of time in at lousy jobs, like everyone else, in order to someday (maybe) get a good paying major job, so they avoided it. Once the game was heavily skewed in their favor, a few more (but still far fewer numbers than males) pursued it, since they knew they'd not have to endure poverty wages, no job security and lousy QOL for a decade or so before the career paid off.

They say that women are smarter than men.

Somehow, I am to blame that more women don't choose this career? Well, maybe the fear of the possibility of actually having to fly with me is enough to send them elsewhere.

I went to an aviation college, and in my class, we started with roughly 100 guys, and less than 10 girls. FWIW, the % of guys that dropped out was about equal to the number of girls. Not sure what that proves, but the ones that stuck it out, both male or female, were dedicated and did it for the love of flying. The ones that dropped out either ran out of cash, or just didn't have it in them, again, it was the same whether they were male or female.





I've heard of the '99s and WIA, but can't speak, on any level, about their motivations, what they think, or anything else regarding them, as I am not a member of either and have never been asked to join.

Never heard of the Whirlygirls, but I assume they're heli pilots?

I've also heard of the QB, but I'm apparently not cool enough to be one of them, so my knowledge of their activities is on par with the above groups.

What does any of that have to do with UAL's discriminatory hiring practices during the '80's and '90s?

Well you post shows you haven't really given it much thought, yet you pronounce the days of inequality are over. A bit of a contradiction don't you think?

It has everything to do with United. You said those days are over, problem solved. Well that is not exactly reality. You made it seem like it was some sort of widespread problem when the selection rate was 4%. You are angry and bitter over 4%.

 

[AirCobra]

BS. They were hiring anyone with a commercial, instrument and a pulse, provided they weren't white males.

Of course I harbor resentment. I watched that show for almost a decade.

I resent(ed) UAL to the point that when I finally got an interview, 8.5 years after I sent my first app, I blew it off. I briefly considered going, and completely screwing with those aholes during the interview (aerobatics in the sim, wear jeans, tee shirt and leather jacket etc.), but I already had a major job and DEN was too far away to bother. It might've been fun though...

Karma's a bitch and I have NO regrets. The irony is that they actually did me a favor, career wise, as I am far better off where I am, but that doesn't make discrimination, in any form, OK.

During my time in the commuters from '86 til mid '95, EVERY (numbering 40-50) female or "minority" person I knew of was either scheduled for an interview with UAL, was waiting for a class date, or, in a (very) few select cases, had interviewed and been turned down. The vast majority had well under 1000 hours when called for an interview (most of the Captains at the commuters were hovering around 5-6k hours), and at least 10 were below 500. One of the airlines I worked at went to PFT in the early '90's, and the FOs that were subsequently hired were particularly unqualified, yet EVERY "minority" pilot "hired" during that period was somewhere in the UAL system.

Ironically, all but one of the folks that were turned down were by far the most qualified of the lot, and should've gotten the job. The one that wasn't was a complete basket case and had no business in an airplane, much less an airliner. She's now a Fed.

The first time I submitted an app to UAL was spring of '88. A friend of mine (female) submitted hers within a few days of mine. We were pretty comparable, education/time/experience wise (roughly 2000 hours... in my case, more than half of that in scheduled, turbine service). She had also been involved in an "at fault" accident a few years prior and had received certificate action as a result. My record was (and still is), totally clean. She was called for an interview within a month, and got hired a month later. I got called for an interview 8.5 years later. We've kept in touch over the years, and she's a relatively senior widebody Captain now and doing great.



How the hell am I part of the problem? I wasn't the one hiring less or even unqualified pilots while there were thousands of qualified pilots available for the jobs.

The problem was entirely with UAL's ridiculous and DISCRIMINATORY hiring practices. I don't blame the folks who got the jobs, heck, they'd have been foolish not to take them. Bypassing thousands of perfectly qualified pilots to hire those that were far less qualified, except for their color/sex was the problem.

Again all you are going on is your perception. United took in over 32,000 applications and hired apx. 1,400 so a lot of you friends got turned down, not because of their skin color or gender but because they didn't have a whole lot of positions open. Of those 1400, they still hired 91% white males. Are you going to tell me 91% is unfair and discriminatory hiring?

 

[AirCobra]

Your going to rethink this.

Go look at the accident rate for part 121 women compared to men. Sorry, but it's heavily slanted against your argument that "they are the same".

Are you serious!

Men have been exclusively crashing planes for over 100 years, maybe they shouldn't be allowed to fly either. With so few women pilots any accident involving a woman is going to screw up the percentages. I don't remember the woman being at fault in the Colgan accident or are you trying to say she was somehow to blame. Did the female captain cause the fire the ValuJet accident?

 

[AirCobra]

Trip, you could take away all the girls and minorities and still have 9/10 jobs

Actually its more like 19 of 20.

Like you though Trip suffers a perception problem. Civilian pilots still outnumber military pilots at SWA 55% to 45%.

 

[pilotyip]

As it has been said many times, if you want head of the line previledges at the majors, go militarty. It may not be fair, they may not be the best pilots in the world, and some may feel they have an "attitude", but it is a fact of life. You just have to get over it, or get it put in your CBA that the company can not hire military pilots.

 

[Tripower455]

Well you post shows you haven't really given it much thought, yet you pronounce the days of inequality are over. A bit of a contradiction don't you think?

I haven't been in the job market for about 20 years. Is UAL still practicing discriminatory hiring? I know that they relaxed their standards and hired a bunch of unqualified white guys like me in the late '90's, but they were desperate for warm bodies, and couldn't be quite as discriminating.

It has everything to do with United. You said those days are over, problem solved. Well that is not exactly reality.

Really? Is UAL still practicing discriminatory hiring?

You made it seem like it was some sort of widespread problem when the selection rate was 4%.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said it was a widespread problem, because it wasn't, as it was more or less one airline that was well known for it.

You are angry and bitter over 4%.

I'm not angry or bitter over 4% or anything else at this point. I do, however, find it incredulous that you are defending a modern company's discriminatory hiring practices, where the minimum requirements change, based solely on the color of your skin or sex. How is that OK?

 

[Tripower455]

Again all you are going on is your perception.

What are you going on?

Were you even in the business at the time?

This is not a perception issue, as it was well known and universally loathed, well, except by the chosen ones.

United took in over 32,000 applications and hired apx. 1,400 so a lot of you friends got turned down, not because of their skin color or gender but because they didn't have a whole lot of positions open.

LOL... Really? They only hired 1400 pilots in a decade?

We never even got interviews, BECAUSE of our gender or skin color, while people of the "correct" gender/race were getting them with exponentially less experience.

The fact that we were civilian might've played a part in their "point" system too. 7000 hours were required for a white male commuter type to get an interview in the early '90's. The few I know that met these requirements and actually got to interview were not hired. The UAL interview was more or less considered as interview practice.

My favorite UAL story is from a friend of mine, who's of Norwegian descent. For those not familiar with Norwegian names, his gender might not be apparent by reading it. He gets a phone call one day from UAL to schedule an interview. They asked for him by name, and he said "This is he", and they hung up.

Another good one..... There was a UAL JFK Chief pilot that used to ride our jumpseat from BDL to JFK and back, several times a week. I was flying with a female FO, (the one I mentioned earlier that turned down UAL). On one of the trips, we had to do a Cat 2 down to mins in JFK. When we parked the airplane, the CP enthusiastically and un offered to write HER a letter of recommendation, saying that they were looking for pilots like her and went on for about 5 minutes, taking all her info. As he turned to leave, I asked if he'd write one for me too, and he grudgingly agreed and gave me his card. She had a letter within a week. I called him several times and he wouldn't even get on the phone. I even had one of the ORD Director of Flight ops call him, and it did nothing, since I wasn't "qualified" (with nearly 4 times the experience of the aforementioned FO) for the interview.

Of those 1400, they still hired 91% white males. Are you going to tell me 91% is unfair and discriminatory hiring?

Are you going to tell me that having different and lower minimums for certain people based solely on sex or race is fair, and isn't discriminatory hiring?

It's the definition of discrimination.

 

[Sluggo_63]

Where do you get the 55/45 number bubba?

http://www.airforcetimes.com/articl.../Commercial-pilot-job-market-ready-for-a-boom

Third section down, under the subheading "A perennial source for many airlines is the military."

About 45 percent of the 6,100 pilots at Southwest Airlines are veterans or reservists, many of whom are former airmen, according to Rocky Calkins, a former F-15 pilot who now is Southwest's pilot hiring manager.

 

[sat74]

Every female FO from the regional I worked at in 2000 was hired by a major while barely having 2500 hours and zero jet pic. Some were quite capable, others were horrible. Go figure.

 

[Tripower455]

Every female FO from the regional I worked at in 2000 was hired by a major while barely having 2500 hours and zero jet pic. Some were quite capable, others were horrible. Go figure.

So, discriminatory hiring was still going on in 2000? I guess AC is correct!

 

[SWA Bubba]

http://www.airforcetimes.com/articl.../Commercial-pilot-job-market-ready-for-a-boom

Third section down, under the subheading "A perennial source for many airlines is the military."

For Wave-

I stand corrected: It's actually MORE than 55% of our pilot force that is civilian-trained, and possibly a lot more. The "45% military" stat includes veterans and reservists who aren't/weren't necessarily military pilots. Part of Capt Calkins' quote (emphasis mine):

About 45 percent of the 6,100 pilots at Southwest Airlines are veterans or reservists, many of whom are former airmen...
​

So that "45% military" number includes all the civilian-trained pilots who served a few enlisted years, and those who might be in the reserves, even in a non-flying job, on the side. Satisfied yet? Or since you stated you wanted "equal" representation for civilian-trained pilots, that means we're gonna' have to hire a whole lot more military-trained guys to catch up!

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Trip, you could take away all the girls and minorities and still have 9/10 jobs

That's a lot different than military backgrounds taking up 87% of a class

Pssssst! Wave!

(I think you meant "women." I've been told that women hate being referred to by men as "girls." They say it demeans what they've accomplished. Don't want you to get in trouble.... )

Bubba