Air Force to UAL New Hire

[waveflyer]

26 out of 30 AC

I don't have perceived inadequacies - I earned my spot and am tired of pilots who didn't getting a hook up

 

[waveflyer]

You came up with the notion that military selection was all political. I am still trying to figure that one out.

There's a waiver for everything if you know the right people AC
To not know that is naive

Most of you- yes- I do not disparage mil training

At all. By all accounts, I wish I had done it- for the experience - sounds like a hell of a challenge and often a lot of fun. Wasn't my goal though

Who Would've thought I shouldn't study civilian aviation and airline systems if I wanted to be a civilian airline pilot?

 

[AirCobra]

You're right- I don't know

What I do know is how bad many military pilots perform online at the job we ALL have now, how entitled and cocky a significant percentage of military pilots are, and how naive and confused they are about things I learned at my first commuter.

So you were flying 121 and didn't know what you were doing for the first few months. Them those guys were just like you were. Why not help them instead of complain about them?

If you want to talk day in and day out about how excellent mil pilots are in military ops- sure- I hope so and by all accounts try are-

What they are on the civilian side is qualified for a regional-

Spend a year or two at a regional and THEN AND ONLY THEN, should they be qualified for a top end MAJOR

How did they do it when there were no regionals, or commuters flew a Navajo under Part 135. No one with a few thousand hours of jet time should be relegated to a low paying job with a lousy schedule just because you were. If you learned 121 on the job, why shouldn't someone else be afforded the same opportunity?

And see how ridiculous this is? Because it's military pilots who are getting the hook up- 87% military in the January class at SWA-
If you think that's right, then you don't know the civilian world anymore than I know military

Still waiting for those class stats. How many heavies and 737 guys? Well?

And btw- you should talk to your military 9/11 furloughs who went to republic and skywests - or even the delta early out 76 capts- talk about getting their a$$ handed to them living the civilian life... Did you EVER fly a line before your major airline job Mamma?
135, 121 turboprop or RJ?
If not- pot meet kettle

Maybe you have a bit more defensiveness bc you have earned your spot and as a C17 driver actually do have a sense of crm and what it's like to fly transport jets-
Most military guys are great-
That can be lost in this discussion-

I am advocating FOR civilian pilots that are getting about 20% of the opportunities right now. That is bullish/t and you know i

t.[/QUOTE]

Did you stop to think it is because with the drawdown there just happens to be more qualified military guys coming off active duty. Between 2006-2008 almost no one was getting out. Its just a cycle man, get over it.

 

[AirCobra]

There's a waiver for everything if you know the right people AC
To not know that is naive

Most of you- yes- I do not disparage mil training

At all. By all accounts, I wish I had done it- for the experience - sounds like a hell of a challenge and often a lot of fun. Wasn't my goal though

Who Would've thought I shouldn't study civilian aviation and airline systems if I wanted to be a civilian airline pilot?

If the pool of applicants is large no waivers are given. Like I told you, waivers are granted if they don't get enough qualified applicants and serves the purpose of drawing in more people, not excluding them. That is not the case right now.

 

[AirCobra]

26 out of 30 AC

I don't have perceived inadequacies - I earned my spot and am tired of pilots who didn't getting a hook up

How we looking on those class statistics? If a single one of those four civilian guys has less time than the 26 military pilots your whole assertion would pretty much go out the window.

 

[AirCobra]

These guys are far more qualified according to your boss. That's he is recruiting at the AF bases. Deer in the headlights? Please. We had a guy in my 737 initial class who flew SAAB 340s for Colgan. Had no idea what anything glass was; GPS; RVSM or ETOPS. Big deer in the headlights but we did not think anything less of him. He went through training and after a few extra sims and a little more time on the line, he was just as good. The point is....he was trainable just like the mil guys.

No its not knowledge of GPS or glass, its reading an ops manual and making a hotel reservation that makes a good pilot. Those things are intuitive and can't be learned unless you spend a few years flying an RJ for $20,000 a year.

 

[waveflyer]

That guy made it through and sounds like a lesser qual'd civilian

You see? We know there are some weak pilots in our ranks

So if that guy made it- why do mil guys get 80% of the slots?

Sounds like our weakest get through no problem bc if any civilian pilot in 2014 doesn't know about rvsm gps etops or glass that's a problem with recruiters hunting for the least qualified civilians-
There are thousands out there looking for jobs who have both turboprop and RJ international experience

Why would they choose and hire a Saab only guy?
Diversity

You kinda proved my point though- thanks

Wanna bet that guy didn't suffer from attitude:arrogance issues

Bet he doesn't sit down next to ex fighter pilots and talk about his turboprop days and how much better he was bc the captain never flew those

 

[waveflyer]

Still waiting for those class stats. How many heavies and 737 guys? Well?

t.

Did you stop to think it is because with the drawdown there just happens to be more qualified military guys coming off active duty. Between 2006-2008 almost no one was getting out. Its just a cycle man, get over it.[/QUOTE]

Except that cycle doesn't even out for civilians does it?

 

[hammer2]

Wave, you need to quietly bow out of this debate. You're not doing too good.

 

[Mamma]

That guy made it through and sounds like a lesser qual'd civilian

You see? We know there are some weak pilots in our ranks

So if that guy made it- why do mil guys get 80% of the slots?

Sounds like our weakest get through no problem bc if any civilian pilot in 2014 doesn't know about rvsm gps etops or glass that's a problem with recruiters hunting for the least qualified civilians-
There are thousands out there looking for jobs who have both turboprop and RJ international experience

Why would they choose and hire a Saab only guy?
Diversity

You kinda proved my point though- thanks

Wanna bet that guy didn't suffer from attitude:arrogance issues

Bet he doesn't sit down next to ex fighter pilots and talk about his turboprop days and how much better he was bc the captain never flew

You are always angry be it politics or this thing you have against mil guys. Anyway, dont take this personally, but you are a textbook narcissist. You appear to think you're the best at everything but you just can't get the upper hand on mil guys so you resort to this. You are either an extreme minority in your thoughts and experiences or SWA really attracts the d0uschebags from the military. Anyway, for the last time, your squab is with your boss, not the guys he hires. Your HR dept does not seem to consult you in regards to who they hire so maybe you should schedule an appointment with them and let your feelings be known. I'm not trying to be flippant but if you want to progress on your ideas, an anonymous chat board is not the place. Make change happen vs being angry.

 

[Mamma]

.......

 

[SIG600]

Wave you usually post pretty level headed insight around here, but this one you've really let your pure uneducated bias out of the bag. You know zero of what you talk about when it comes to mil experience. Yes the first 25 hours of OE are pretty dizzying, but that feeling of bombardment and feeling overwhelmed is where mil guys, especially fighter guys, thrive. It's not cosmic, it's learning the process and nuances just like any other job on the planet. I would argue that my mil experience has be thinking too far ahead. My first medical emergency, while on OE, I had already taken the airplane and forumlated half a dozen courses of action while the Captain worked with dispatch. Most of us aren't seat meat, and while a Regional Captain has probably done it himself, that's the essence of CRM, a melding of experience and resources in the cockpit. Where do we learn that multi tasking and leadership support? These days for a mil guy, that comes from the ultimate crucible of trial by fire... pure unadulterated combat.

And no one gave us our jobs, we had to apply and interview with everyone else. I spent close to $7k preparing through interview prep, buying sim time, etc. I don't know a single guy that felt entitled and didn't pour every ounce of effort into preparation. I know guys that shelled out over $10k buying tickets for last minute plane tickets to make sim prep sessions, network with chief pilots, etc. Are mil guys good at networking? You bet. Are there Regional guys hitting up their buddies for recs and in's networking in the exact same fashion? Damn right. The only one here that can't see the massive chip on your shoulder is you.

 

[Turtle21]

Yep, you guys really need a new you.

 

[fareview]

Wave,

Stop embarrassing those of us who never flew military.

You have lost...retreat...it's called decision making...exercise some.

fv

 

[AirCobra]

Wave you usually post pretty level headed insight around here, but this one you've really let your pure uneducated bias out of the bag. You know zero of what you talk about when it comes to mil experience. Yes the first 25 hours of OE are pretty dizzying, but that feeling of bombardment and feeling overwhelmed is where mil guys, especially fighter guys, thrive. It's not cosmic, it's learning the process and nuances just like any other job on the planet. I would argue that my mil experience has be thinking too far ahead. My first medical emergency, while on OE, I had already taken the airplane and forumlated half a dozen courses of action while the Captain worked with dispatch. Most of us aren't seat meat, and while a Regional Captain has probably done it himself, that's the essence of CRM, a melding of experience and resources in the cockpit. Where do we learn that multi tasking and leadership support? These days for a mil guy, that comes from the ultimate crucible of trial by fire... pure unadulterated combat.

And no one gave us our jobs, we had to apply and interview with everyone else. I spent close to $7k preparing through interview prep, buying sim time, etc. I don't know a single guy that felt entitled and didn't pour every ounce of effort into preparation. I know guys that shelled out over $10k buying tickets for last minute plane tickets to make sim prep sessions, network with chief pilots, etc. Are mil guys good at networking? You bet. Are there Regional guys hitting up their buddies for recs and in's networking in the exact same fashion? Damn right. The only one here that can't see the massive chip on your shoulder is you.

You know I never even thought about that. We were focusing on SWA in this discussion. Didn't/Don't they require a 737 type? Were places like Higher Power giving those away with a secret handshake to military guys, or did they have to go through the same training and check as civilian only pilots?

I will add I went through interview prep and bought some time in a sim too. At the time United also had an intern program with some schools where college students got FE training and an interview (yes it was a long time ago). My interview group only had three military guys in it. All of us went through the same testing and eval process as the civilian only pilots did. No one of were singled out for preferential treatment. Training was the same too, as was IOE. I really can't figure out what Wave is still going on about.

 

[Scrapdog]

Sig is spot on. This post ((or should I say WF (the mil hater) vs the rest of the forum) is really a black hole and so far from factual data it's a farce. I'm a fighter pilot, FTU IP in a fighter, and a fly for a major airline. I'm also a CFI, CFII, and MEI and I've taught at a civilian mom-and-pop flight school. The quality of training a mil guy gets are hands down superior, bar none. Not just tactics, but basic airmanship as well. Going into specifics is beyond the scope of the thread. Sorry, but this is indeed the case.

Now, does this mean civilian trained pilots are inferior? Heck no. My dad, a civilian only pilot (and CFI), taught me to fly and he's still one of the best stick and rudder guys I'll ever meet. I may be a little biased on that point but I have nothing against civ only guys. Frankly I could care less what the other guy's background is when I sit on the flight deck flying for the airlines. What matters is really how enjoyable a guy is, how he interacts with the crew and others, and can he keep cool if a non-standard issue arises.

Back to the first paragraph?a mil guy starting at a major is partly behind the power curve initially. That is true. However, they are caught up and at the same point (or further ahead) than their civilian counterparts by hour X (let's call it 25 hours in the airplane or perhaps their first 4 day OE trip). The "pushback" procedures, two crew CRM (for single seat guys), and reading Jepps are indeed new. But the stick and rudder skills are 100% there and there is absolutely ZERO REASON to start at a regional. Never has been, never will.

 

[waveflyer]

Thoroughly disagree

You are biased-

Many of you fighter guys take your bad habits and crm all the way to the left seat-

Maybe you can't see it

Agree to disagree - as far as handling airliners- civs are tops-

But I'm over this- seems everyone is convinced their background is the best -

One group admits to being behind on day 1- shouldn't be that way at an end goal major

IMHO - go to a regional and get qual'd - esp fighter jockeys

Previous point is right on- my problem is not with mil pilots- it's with ex mil pilots in charge of hiring who establish a good ole boy network and hire their own at civilian's expense

I know I've been inflammatory, but the end point is still good-

Have Civilian pilots earned better than a 20% hiring rate?

I say yes.

That ought not be that controversial-
But like all things FI- attacking people's background has predictable results and ultimately just pissing in the wind

I want you to keep your pride of all accomplishments-
Just don't try and take away mine- especially when you do t have my achievements and are now looking for work in my area of expertise

With that I'm done

Fire away

 

[Turtle21]

Thoroughly disagree

You are biased-

Many of you fighter guys take your bad habits and crm all the way to the left seat-

Maybe you can't see it

Agree to disagree - as far as handling airliners- civs are tops-

But I'm over this- seems everyone is convinced their background is the best -

One group admits to being behind on day 1- shouldn't be that way at an end goal major

IMHO - go to a regional and get qual'd - esp fighter jockeys

Previous point is right on- my problem is not with mil pilots- it's with ex mil pilots in charge of hiring who establish a good ole boy network and hire their own at civilian's expense

I know I've been inflammatory, but the end point is still good-

Have Civilian pilots earned better than a 20% hiring rate?

I say yes.

That ought not be that controversial-
But like all things FI- attacking people's background has predictable results and ultimately just pissing in the wind

I want you to keep your pride of all accomplishments-
Just don't try and take away mine- especially when you do t have my achievements and are now looking for work in my area of expertise

With that I'm done

Fire away

Personally as a heavy mil pilot I feel discriminated against by fighter pilots that don't have any experience hauling rubber dog pooh or passengers. I flew scheduled passenger flights all over the world and I am way more qualified than fighter pilots but they get all the breaks.... and their chicks are skinny with balloons on their chests.

It is just so unfair. Nobody appreciates heavy pilots, our chicks are fat, and we always lose the yellow snow contest.

 

[pilotyip]

The quality of training a mil guy gets are hands down superior, bar none. Not just tactics, but basic airmanship as well. Going into specifics is beyond the scope of the thread. Sorry, but this is indeed the case.

You are gifted in that you can see both sides. There is know quanity with a military trained pilots. First they are pre-screened, they face a Student Pilot Disposition board at any sign of unsatisfactory progress, and there is little time building in the training program. Every flight has a training objective. The training is done in advanced turbine airplanes from day one. The militarty student pilots are dealing with the Flight Levels and 300 Kts before they reach 100 hours of flight time. The military also accepts a much higher risk is pushing their training objectives. I think we had a student fatality a month in the training command.

Can anyone become a military pilot, of course, but not everyone has the qualifications or the desire.

As I said above if you have not been on both sides, you can not appreciate the differences.

 

[AirCobra]

Thoroughly disagree

You are biased-

Many of you fighter guys take your bad habits and crm all the way to the left seat-

Maybe you can't see it

Agree to disagree - as far as handling airliners- civs are tops-

But I'm over this- seems everyone is convinced their background is the best -

One group admits to being behind on day 1- shouldn't be that way at an end goal major

IMHO - go to a regional and get qual'd - esp fighter jockeys

Previous point is right on- my problem is not with mil pilots- it's with ex mil pilots in charge of hiring who establish a good ole boy network and hire their own at civilian's expense

I know I've been inflammatory, but the end point is still good-

Have Civilian pilots earned better than a 20% hiring rate?

I say yes.

That ought not be that controversial-
But like all things FI- attacking people's background has predictable results and ultimately just pissing in the wind

I want you to keep your pride of all accomplishments-
Just don't try and take away mine- especially when you do t have my achievements and are now looking for work in my area of expertise

With that I'm done

Fire away

I found an interview from 2011 with Southwest hiring manager Rocky Calkins in the Air Force Times. He said Southwest has approx. 6100 pilots, 45% of whom are former military (that means there are more civilian only pilots at Southwest Wave). He also said they are getting less pilots from the Air Force because many guys coming off active duty don't meet the minimum flight hour requirements (so much for secret handshakes).

Well that says to me that you seem to have the problem, not Southwest. I doubt you will be demanding Southwest increase their military hiring to make the ratio equal, but hey advocating one-way fairness has always been the FI way.

BTW do you have those class stats for the 80/20 split? How many were heavy or 737 guys. How many already had civilian experience? Were any civilian pilots hired with lower TT than the military only people?