Air Force to UAL New Hire

[waveflyer]

You misread my post (RJ's fly fast, meaning they fly at jet speeds like a T-38, not at Cessna 172 speeds). Turbine time prepares you for flying turbines. Structured training environments prepare you for structured training environments. You don't make it to the line unless you make it through training and that is where the advantage comes in for a mil trained pilot. Sorry you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Where are you getting this idea that civilian pilot training is not structured?

Most professional pilots went to professional pilot courses or universities - and an equal number of mil pilots got a private/ instrument at joe bob's flight school-

There was NOTHING unstructured about my training or 90% of those that I know

Again, this isn't 1990- things changed when the FAA saw that RJs were coming

 

[waveflyer]

Airline flying is more than handling the plane. Being in 121, especially regionals, bombards the crew with distractions that are operationally removed from mil flight crews. I've been doing a lot of OE with mil guys lately and they're stunned at how much the nonflying functions interfere with the flying. It takes a lot of experience to learn to compartmentalize the two without leaving anything out.

It's pax issues to Mx, to ops, to 117, to hotels and transportation to all the support required for the flight, which is never where and when it's supposed to be, to all the regulatory t's and i's, including determining deice and how and where each station does it, all within a 24 min turn. It's a totally different mindset and ops tempo.

Once the plane is in the air and we're cruising along, then it's break time.

This^^^
+1 well said

 

[pilotyip]

There was BOTHING unstructured about my training or 90% of those that I know

Yes anyone with $$ can get into those schools, yes and immediatley someone is going to chime in and go "My brother's girlfriend's, aunt knows a guy whose son could not get into a flying program"

Not so much the other path

 

[waveflyer]

Yep, anybody who can hang can stay on and become an airline pilot.

Why is that a bad thing, yip?

Instead of dequaling pilots for preemptive test scores, eyesight, and politics?
I know, why don't you lobby for that tom cruise movie to fight crime. Remember? Where they'd arrest people before they committed a crime.

because we all know how one does on a few tests before they've ever stepped into an aircraft is the best predictor of what kind of pilot they will be in the end- right?

For the record, more than half of my class at flight school did not finish for various reasons. Check rides are not nonevents in the civilian world.

Do you really think regionals and commuter operators think twice about pink slipping a pilot? Do you think any flight school does?
So many misconceptions

 

[AirCobra]

Thank you ^^^

Except that- when at the SWA fedex dal aa as ual's of the world - the main people captain's are babysitting are military pilots- bc they've never done this

And I'm sorry- That's why they end up sucking- they know it's not a carrier and it's not a fighter and don't respect the airplane or job and don't do what they got to do to be good and have wanker personalities to go along with it.

All of that is the definition of unqualified-

Training and IOE are non events for the civilians worth hiring. Which is most of them.

To your question AC, Why am I off my rocker to think that if you're getting one of the best jobs in the world, pilots should be fully qualified and ready and not learning "on the job"?

Again- mil guy who flies a 737 for the military- does not tend to be the problem Kernal

The problem Wave is your stupid lies about pilot selections being political rather than merit based. I'm still awaiting your lame explanation of how you came up with that one. Anytime now.

 

[AirCobra]

Where are you getting this idea that civilian pilot training is not structured?

Most professional pilots went to professional pilot courses or universities - and an equal number of mil pilots got a private/ instrument at joe bob's flight school-

There was NOTHING unstructured about my training or 90% of those that I know

Again, this isn't 1990- things changed when the FAA saw that RJs were coming

I keep telling you becuase I have done both. You haven't! Your 90% stat is wholly made up. Most people drive to their local airport, sit on the dirty couch, and hope their instructor shows up . Very few people can afford to go to Embry Riddle or UND or don't have the time since they have to work. Very few of us could come up with $60,000 when we were 20. Most civilian pilots learned and still learn the same way I did for my PPL and Instrument rating. Flying a few times a month at the local FBO. I had six different instructors and a Jeppesen Private Pilot kit I bought myself. What structure!

 

[AirCobra]

Airline flying is more than handling the plane. Being in 121, especially regionals, bombards the crew with distractions that are operationally removed from mil flight crews. I've been doing a lot of OE with mil guys lately and they're stunned at how much the nonflying functions interfere with the flying. It takes a lot of experience to learn to compartmentalize the two without leaving anything out.

It's pax issues to Mx, to ops, to 117, to hotels and transportation to all the support required for the flight, which is never where and when it's supposed to be, to all the regulatory t's and i's, including determining deice and how and where each station does it, all within a 24 min turn. It's a totally different mindset and ops tempo.

Once the plane is in the air and we're cruising along, then it's break time.

What does any of that have to do with predictors for success in training which is what we are talking about?

 

[AirCobra]

For the record, more than half of my class at flight school did not finish for various reasons.

The number one reason likely being they ran out of money.

What are you lamenting here, that you can't buy your way into a military flying position? Isn't that the very antithesis of the liberal mindset? Are you applauding a system where the wealthiest among us can get ahead more quickly by buying a job, yet those that served and received their training through merit are somehow lesser individuals? Your very dumb mindset is probably clouding your judgement. Yeah Wave you are so much better than me because you had a bigger checkbook or a better credit score.

 

[pilotyip]

because we all know how one does on a few tests before they've ever stepped into an aircraft is the best predictor of what kind of pilot they will be in the end- right?

Hap Arnold, said only college educated people could be successful in flight training. Robert Lovett, WWII Asst Sec of War for Air, Who may have saved the US in WWII. He showed we needed quantity, not quality.

We will need 100K pilots per year, we will not get that many physically qualified college educated pilots. He said the college was not needed to fly an airplane, so he devised a series of tests to identify those traits and knowledge levels needed to be successful in pilot training.

He found that many college educated people could not pass this test, but many high school graduates could. These 19 year old pilots proved their worth all over the globe, flying equipment under conditions that would test almost all of us on this board.

Tests similar to those are still in use today and they are very predicative on success in a military flight training program.

 

[Mamma]

This^^^
+1 well said

This was not well said at all. You like it because you feel it supports your very narrow/skewed and inaccurate viewpoint.

"Airline flying is more than handling the plane. Being in 121, especially regionals, bombards the crew with distractions that are operationally removed from mil flight crews.

Absolute horsecrap. You think mil guys don't have major distractions? There are major distractions all the time. Malfunctions, wingman issues, weather at the target, command post, airspace and so on are the norm. Fighter guys, whom you seem to loathe, are hands-down the experts at handling distractions and maintaining an extremely high level of SA. That's why your boss wants them. I've been flying 9 years in the majors and almost 20 in the air force, both active duty and reserve so I can speak on this with credibility whereas you cannot. You do not fly with ex-mil FOs. The ex-mil captains you fly with are probably just fine. It's that HUGE chip on your shoulder that cause you to have an unrealistic expectation.

I've been doing a lot of OE with mil guys lately and they're stunned at how much the nonflying functions interfere with the flying. It takes a lot of experience to learn to compartmentalize the two without leaving anything out.

Stunned? Please. They may be "surprised" at how much distraction is out there. The perception, from the insane amount of distractions they handle, is that it's a lot easier on the civilian side. When they get there, they are surprised that is almost as bad. Mil guys have no problem with this. We learn over OE and usually within the first few hundred hours, the tempo is figured out to proficiency. It ain't that hard.

It's pax issues to Mx, to ops, to 117, to hotels and transportation to all the support required for the flight, which is never where and when it's supposed to be, to all the regulatory t's and i's, including determining deice and how and where each station does it, all within a 24 min turn. It's a totally different mindset and ops tempo.


Uh, no it is not. These issues are exactly the same issues ALL military heavy guys deal with except multiply it by a factor of 2 or 3. We don't have a dispatcher. We have to get our own hotels and arrange transportation to them. We have to file vouchers for every expense afterwards. We have FAA, AF, command, wing, squadron and aircraft specific regulations to worry about also. Fighter guys have to do EVERYTHING themselves!

Once the plane is in the air and we're cruising along, then it's break time."

Really? And this guy does OE. It's pretty much game time for the military once we get in the air. There are bombs to be dropped, air refueling, NVG operations, low levels, airdrop and a combat operations. Basically, its busy as hell all the time. With all the distractions.

Your problem Wave, is just what Air Cobra said. You know only half of the equation and with major fault, assume you understand the other half. You don't know dicko about mil pilots but your boss sure does and so do the bosses at many other airlines. That is why Southwest recruiting was just at my base a couple of weeks ago. They want C-17 pilots. I've never heard of one being turned down. You let jealousy and envy cloud your judgement.

I understand and empathize with your view. Regional pilots are top notch for this job and their numbers should be higher. That being said, insulting military pilots, out of complete ignorance, is low rent. This airline job is not that hard if you stay focused and professional.

 

[Mamma]

Hap Arnold, said only college educated people could be successful in flight training. Robert Lovett, WWII Asst Sec of War for Air, Who may have saved the US in WWII. He showed we needed quantity, not quality.

We will need 100K pilots per year, we will not get that many physically qualified college educated pilots. He said the college was not needed to fly an airplane, so he devised a series of tests to identify those traits and knowledge levels needed to be successful in pilot training.

He found that many college educated people could not pass this test, but many high school graduates could. These 19 year old pilots proved their worth all over the globe, flying equipment under conditions that would test almost all of us on this board.

Tests similar to those are still in use today and they are very predicative on success in a military flight training program.

I remember those tests. AFOQT (Air Force Officer Qualifying Test) to start. Then the Basic Aptitude Test. Then the PCSM score that basically added up everything into a point total that is very good at determining success. Then there is flight screening to weed out those that can't hack it before the real spending starts. After all that, a candidate goes to Brooks AFB, TX and gets a full day of medical tests on their eyes, heart and reflexes to further eliminate those that might have issues in the future. The wash-out rate at pilot training due to these tests, is much much lower now.

 

[AirCobra]

I remember those tests. AFOQT (Air Force Officer Qualifying Test) to start. Then the Basic Aptitude Test. Then the PCSM score that basically added up everything into a point total that is very good at determining success. Then there is flight screening to weed out those that can't hack it before the real spending starts. After all that, a candidate goes to Brooks AFB, TX and gets a full day of medical tests on their eyes, heart and reflexes to further eliminate those that might have issues in the future. The wash-out rate at pilot training due to these tests, is much much lower now.

But but but Wave said it was all political! You mean there are aptitude tests? I though I could get F-18's with a sign off from my local alderman. Who knew?

 

[waveflyer]

You're right- I don't know

What I do know is how bad many military pilots perform online at the job we ALL have now, how entitled and cocky a significant percentage of military pilots are, and how naive and confused they are about things I learned at my first commuter.

If you want to talk day in and day out about how excellent mil pilots are in military ops- sure- I hope so and by all accounts try are-

What they are on the civilian side is qualified for a regional-

Spend a year or two at a regional and THEN AND ONLY THEN, should they be qualified for a top end MAJOR

And see how ridiculous this is? Because it's military pilots who are getting the hook up- 87% military in the January class at SWA-
If you think that's right, then you don't know the civilian world anymore than I know military

And btw- you should talk to your military 9/11 furloughs who went to republic and skywests - or even the delta early out 76 capts- talk about getting their a$$ handed to them living the civilian life... Did you EVER fly a line before your major airline job Mamma?
135, 121 turboprop or RJ?
If not- pot meet kettle

Maybe you have a bit more defensiveness bc you have earned your spot and as a C17 driver actually do have a sense of crm and what it's like to fly transport jets-
Most military guys are great-
That can be lost in this discussion-

I am advocating FOR civilian pilots that are getting about 20% of the opportunities right now. That is bullish/t and you know it.

 

[waveflyer]

But but but Wave said it was all political! You mean there are aptitude tests? I though I could get F-18's with a sign off from my local alderman. Who knew?

And you think a bunch of pilots don't get disqualified for BS who then go on to have very good civilian careers?

Maybe we should all take aptitude tests when we're 8 years old and never get an opportunity to do anything else.

That would be great wouldn't it comrades?

 

[AirCobra]

This was not well said at all. You like it because you feel it supports your very narrow/skewed and inaccurate viewpoint.

"Airline flying is more than handling the plane. Being in 121, especially regionals, bombards the crew with distractions that are operationally removed from mil flight crews.

Absolute horsecrap. You think mil guys don't have major distractions? There are major distractions all the time. Malfunctions, wingman issues, weather at the target, command post, airspace and so on are the norm. Fighter guys, whom you seem to loathe, are hands-down the experts at handling distractions and maintaining an extremely high level of SA. That's why your boss wants them. I've been flying 9 years in the majors and almost 20 in the air force, both active duty and reserve so I can speak on this with credibility whereas you cannot. You do not fly with ex-mil FOs. The ex-mil captains you fly with are probably just fine. It's that HUGE chip on your shoulder that cause you to have an unrealistic expectation.

It thought that was an interesting comment too. As if getting shot at or a misplaced round killing your own folks on the ground wasn't the ultimate in distraction. Even in benign training events when we did rocket fire, if I elevated too much or shot outside the lateral limits of the engagement envelope I could lob a rocket into a town. I think checking the weather, reading an ops manual, or making a hotel reservation pales in comparison.

I agree with you that airline flying and the flying I do now was/is pretty easy, especially in comparison to what I did before. Wave likes to make it like he is Fred Noonan trying to fly Howland Island with an ADF. I guess it is what he must do to feel better about himself and his perceived inadequacies.

 

[waveflyer]

This was not well said at all. You like it because you feel it supports your very narrow/skewed and inaccurate viewpoint.
.[/COLOR]

No-
It's what we see out online and have for years. Deer in the headlights mixed with arrogance

Sorry you don't like it- but you're arguing for unqualified mil pilots to keep on skipping a step and not getting good 121 experience before they get the top end jobs.

I disagree with that and will continue to. These jobs are too valuable for short cuts

 

[Mamma]

You're right- I don't know

What I do know is how bad many military pilots perform online at the job we ALL have now, how entitled and cocky a significant percentage of military pilots are, and how naive and confused they are about things I learned at my first commuter.

If you want to talk day in and day out about how excellent mil pilots are in military ops- sure- I hope so and by all accounts try are-

What they are on the civilian side is qualified for a regional-

Spend a year or two at a regional and THEN AND ONLY THEN, should they be qualified for a top end MAJOR

And see how ridiculous this is? Because it's military pilots who are getting the hook up- 87% military in the January class at SWA-
If you think that's right, then you don't know the civilian world anymore than I know military

And btw- you should talk to your military 9/11 furloughs who went to republic and skywests - or even the delta early out 76 capts- talk about getting their a$$ handed to them living the civilian life... Did you EVER fly a line before your major airline job Mamma?
135, 121 turboprop or RJ?
If not- pot meet kettle

Maybe you have a bit more defensiveness bc you have earned your spot and as a C17 driver actually do have a sense of crm and what it's like to fly transport jets-
Most military guys are great-
That can be lost in this discussion-

I am advocating FOR civilian pilots that are getting about 20% of the opportunities right now. That is bullish/t and you know it.

I'm all for civilian pilots getting more jobs. Take that up with your boss though. Don't insult us. You sound like an idiot when you try to disparage an large group of people. When people do that in other walks, they are called racists, bigots and whatever type of "phone." You cannot back up anything you are saying.

 

[AirCobra]

And you think a bunch of pilots don't get disqualified for BS who then go on to have very good civilian careers?

Maybe we should all take aptitude tests when we're 8 years old and never get an opportunity to do anything else.

That would be great wouldn't it comrades?

You came up with the notion that military selection was all political. I am still trying to figure that one out.

 

[AirCobra]

No-
It's what we see out online and have for years. Deer in the headlights mixed with arrogance

Sorry you don't like it- but you're arguing for unqualified mil pilots to keep on skipping a step and not getting good 121 experience before they get the top end jobs.

I disagree with that and will continue to. These jobs are too valuable for short cuts

If guys on the line don't know what they are doing maybe your training department has a problem.

 

[Mamma]

No-
It's what we see out online and have for years. Deer in the headlights mixed with arrogance

Sorry you don't like it- but you're arguing for unqualified mil pilots to keep on skipping a step and not getting good 121 experience before they get the top end jobs.

I disagree with that and will continue to. These jobs are too valuable for short cuts

These guys are far more qualified according to your boss. That's he is recruiting at the AF bases. Deer in the headlights? Please. We had a guy in my 737 initial class who flew SAAB 340s for Colgan. Had no idea what anything glass was; GPS; RVSM or ETOPS. Big deer in the headlights but we did not think anything less of him. He went through training and after a few extra sims and a little more time on the line, he was just as good. The point is....he was trainable just like the mil guys.

 

[waveflyer]

26 out of 30 AC

I don't have perceived inadequacies - I earned my spot and am tired of pilots who didn't getting a hook up

 

[waveflyer]

You came up with the notion that military selection was all political. I am still trying to figure that one out.

There's a waiver for everything if you know the right people AC
To not know that is naive

Most of you- yes- I do not disparage mil training

At all. By all accounts, I wish I had done it- for the experience - sounds like a hell of a challenge and often a lot of fun. Wasn't my goal though

Who Would've thought I shouldn't study civilian aviation and airline systems if I wanted to be a civilian airline pilot?

 

[AirCobra]

You're right- I don't know

What I do know is how bad many military pilots perform online at the job we ALL have now, how entitled and cocky a significant percentage of military pilots are, and how naive and confused they are about things I learned at my first commuter.

So you were flying 121 and didn't know what you were doing for the first few months. Them those guys were just like you were. Why not help them instead of complain about them?

If you want to talk day in and day out about how excellent mil pilots are in military ops- sure- I hope so and by all accounts try are-

What they are on the civilian side is qualified for a regional-

Spend a year or two at a regional and THEN AND ONLY THEN, should they be qualified for a top end MAJOR

How did they do it when there were no regionals, or commuters flew a Navajo under Part 135. No one with a few thousand hours of jet time should be relegated to a low paying job with a lousy schedule just because you were. If you learned 121 on the job, why shouldn't someone else be afforded the same opportunity?

And see how ridiculous this is? Because it's military pilots who are getting the hook up- 87% military in the January class at SWA-
If you think that's right, then you don't know the civilian world anymore than I know military

Still waiting for those class stats. How many heavies and 737 guys? Well?

And btw- you should talk to your military 9/11 furloughs who went to republic and skywests - or even the delta early out 76 capts- talk about getting their a$$ handed to them living the civilian life... Did you EVER fly a line before your major airline job Mamma?
135, 121 turboprop or RJ?
If not- pot meet kettle

Maybe you have a bit more defensiveness bc you have earned your spot and as a C17 driver actually do have a sense of crm and what it's like to fly transport jets-
Most military guys are great-
That can be lost in this discussion-

I am advocating FOR civilian pilots that are getting about 20% of the opportunities right now. That is bullish/t and you know i

t.[/QUOTE]

Did you stop to think it is because with the drawdown there just happens to be more qualified military guys coming off active duty. Between 2006-2008 almost no one was getting out. Its just a cycle man, get over it.

 

[AirCobra]

There's a waiver for everything if you know the right people AC
To not know that is naive

Most of you- yes- I do not disparage mil training

At all. By all accounts, I wish I had done it- for the experience - sounds like a hell of a challenge and often a lot of fun. Wasn't my goal though

Who Would've thought I shouldn't study civilian aviation and airline systems if I wanted to be a civilian airline pilot?

If the pool of applicants is large no waivers are given. Like I told you, waivers are granted if they don't get enough qualified applicants and serves the purpose of drawing in more people, not excluding them. That is not the case right now.

 

[AirCobra]

26 out of 30 AC

I don't have perceived inadequacies - I earned my spot and am tired of pilots who didn't getting a hook up

How we looking on those class statistics? If a single one of those four civilian guys has less time than the 26 military pilots your whole assertion would pretty much go out the window.

 

[AirCobra]

These guys are far more qualified according to your boss. That's he is recruiting at the AF bases. Deer in the headlights? Please. We had a guy in my 737 initial class who flew SAAB 340s for Colgan. Had no idea what anything glass was; GPS; RVSM or ETOPS. Big deer in the headlights but we did not think anything less of him. He went through training and after a few extra sims and a little more time on the line, he was just as good. The point is....he was trainable just like the mil guys.

No its not knowledge of GPS or glass, its reading an ops manual and making a hotel reservation that makes a good pilot. Those things are intuitive and can't be learned unless you spend a few years flying an RJ for $20,000 a year.

 

[waveflyer]

That guy made it through and sounds like a lesser qual'd civilian

You see? We know there are some weak pilots in our ranks

So if that guy made it- why do mil guys get 80% of the slots?

Sounds like our weakest get through no problem bc if any civilian pilot in 2014 doesn't know about rvsm gps etops or glass that's a problem with recruiters hunting for the least qualified civilians-
There are thousands out there looking for jobs who have both turboprop and RJ international experience

Why would they choose and hire a Saab only guy?
Diversity

You kinda proved my point though- thanks

Wanna bet that guy didn't suffer from attitude:arrogance issues

Bet he doesn't sit down next to ex fighter pilots and talk about his turboprop days and how much better he was bc the captain never flew those

 

[waveflyer]

Still waiting for those class stats. How many heavies and 737 guys? Well?

t.

Did you stop to think it is because with the drawdown there just happens to be more qualified military guys coming off active duty. Between 2006-2008 almost no one was getting out. Its just a cycle man, get over it.[/QUOTE]

Except that cycle doesn't even out for civilians does it?

 

[hammer2]

Wave, you need to quietly bow out of this debate. You're not doing too good.

 

[Mamma]

That guy made it through and sounds like a lesser qual'd civilian

You see? We know there are some weak pilots in our ranks

So if that guy made it- why do mil guys get 80% of the slots?

Sounds like our weakest get through no problem bc if any civilian pilot in 2014 doesn't know about rvsm gps etops or glass that's a problem with recruiters hunting for the least qualified civilians-
There are thousands out there looking for jobs who have both turboprop and RJ international experience

Why would they choose and hire a Saab only guy?
Diversity

You kinda proved my point though- thanks

Wanna bet that guy didn't suffer from attitude:arrogance issues

Bet he doesn't sit down next to ex fighter pilots and talk about his turboprop days and how much better he was bc the captain never flew

You are always angry be it politics or this thing you have against mil guys. Anyway, dont take this personally, but you are a textbook narcissist. You appear to think you're the best at everything but you just can't get the upper hand on mil guys so you resort to this. You are either an extreme minority in your thoughts and experiences or SWA really attracts the d0uschebags from the military. Anyway, for the last time, your squab is with your boss, not the guys he hires. Your HR dept does not seem to consult you in regards to who they hire so maybe you should schedule an appointment with them and let your feelings be known. I'm not trying to be flippant but if you want to progress on your ideas, an anonymous chat board is not the place. Make change happen vs being angry.