Air Force to UAL New Hire

[Russ]

No but it makes him or her far more familiar with 121 operations, regs, OPSPECs, busy airports, quick turns and dealing with other work groups specific to the airlines.

All skills learned quickly by the mil guys, but out of the box the civ guys have the advantage. I'm a LCA at my airline (not a major) and deal with new hires from both backgrounds. The civ guys pick up on things quicker, the mil guys tend to listen more as they know they're at a disadvantage.
There are plenty of examples of mil pilots gooning up and becoming statistics, Bud Holland, the C-5 crew crashing out of the dreaded three engine approach with a good engine throttled back or even the C-12 in Afghanistan highlighted in the March edition of Flying magazine. Without doubt someone can point to crashes caused by civ pilots. All it will do is prove the point that we have more in common than a superiority of either in the long run.

 

[waveflyer]

Who spent more time actually flying? Takeoff-Autopilot-Land equates to how much ACTUAL flight time, in say a three hour period? Maybe 20 minutes? A fighter pilot with 1500 hours spent most of those 1500 hours actually manipulating the controls, you know flying, not complaining about their schedule, playing with their phone, or reading the paper.

So...advantage the B1900 or jet stream driver who tackled northeast winters with no autopilot 7 legs a day??

I thought they were unqualified bc they didn't have glass and jets?

You guys have an excuse for everything. An excuse for why any civilian experience is worse than military, and an excuse for why any military experience is better than civilian.

Cut the crap and just be honest about it being a hook up

 

[AirCobra]

So...advantage the B1900 or jet stream driver who tackled northeast winters with no autopilot 7 legs a day??

I thought they were unqualified bc they didn't have glass and jets?

You guys have an excuse for everything. An excuse for why any civilian experience is worse than military, and an excuse for why any military experience is better than civilian.

Cut the crap and just be honest about it being a hook up

Not sure what you are trying to say and what you mean by excuse. I am talking about actual flying expereince, you remember the stuff we do for a few minutes before we hit the "on" button, not sitting motionless for two hours. Do I think a experienced Jetstream guy has more "flying" expereince than a RJ guy with the same time TT. Yes. I also think SWA guys have more real flying expereince than someone who flies transcontinental or international. A SWA guy lands more than once every 12 hours I think.

If I were running a place like FedEx or UPS with a lot of old jets I would be more inclined to look at someone who did a lot of "flying" rather than button pushing. What some military pilots have to offer is a lot of actual hands on flying, along with glass cockpit experience, so in that respect getting a C-130J, C-17, or F-16 guy with less TT than an RJ guy is probably a better deal experience wise. They have two skills. And just like our previous discussion even with helo guys (which to you might as well be a hot air balloon or glider) "flying" a multi crew, 18,000 lb turbine powered aircraft with a glass cockpit is more applicable to airline flying than being a CFI in a C-172. Too bad you fail to see it that way, but if you had done both you would understand.

A lot of people here have done both, you haven't. Rather than jumping to conclusions and talking about conspiracies or networks why don't you ask around and make informed decisions. The very fact you have a job unvalidates your hook up theory, doesn't it?

 

[bluesideup1]

Not sure what you are trying to say and what you mean by excuse. I am talking about actual flying expereince, you remember the stuff we do for a few minutes before we hit the "on" button, not sitting motionless for two hours. Do I think a experienced Jetstream guy has more "flying" expereince than a RJ guy with the same time TT. Yes. I also think SWA guys have more real flying expereince than someone who flies transcontinental or international. A SWA guy lands more than once every 12 hours I think.

If I were running a place like FedEx or UPS with a lot of old jets I would be more inclined to look at someone who did a lot of "flying" rather than button pushing. What some military pilots have to offer is a lot of actual hands on flying, along with glass cockpit experience, so in that respect getting a C-130J, C-17, or F-16 guy with less TT than an RJ guy is probably a better deal experience wise. They have two skills. And just like our previous discussion even with helo guys (which to you might as well be a hot air balloon or glider) "flying" a multi crew, 18,000 lb turbine powered aircraft with a glass cockpit is more applicable to airline flying than being a CFI in a C-172. Too bad you fail to see it that way, but if you had done both you would understand.

A lot of people here have done both, you haven't. Rather than jumping to conclusions and talking about conspiracies or networks why don't you ask around and make informed decisions. The very fact you have a job unvalidates your hook up theory, doesn't it?

I think most civilian guys have more time hand flying a C172 than military guys have total time. So, if hand flying is where it is at I think you need to try again.

 

[sat74]

I thought FedEx thought anyone with over 6000 hours as untrainable?

 

[Turtle21]

So why would such low time not make you less qualified?

The qualification is, at the very most, an ATP and FE written. Anything else is all subjective. It isn't up to me, so I have already wasted more brain cells on this thread than I can afford.

 

[Mamma]

Wave,
I see what you are saying and empathize with you. It can be frustrating. But, for you to disparage military pilots as being substandard, arrogant and not deserving discredits you and makes me question your abilities. Hours are not everything management is looking for. They are looking long-term and have a certain criteria they desire. If you want to whine, don't get upset with the mil guy, voice your concerns to management who hires them. I'm sure they will tell you to pound sand but then again, maybe not.

 

[Mamma]

.......

 

[Mamma]

So...advantage the B1900 or jet stream driver who tackled northeast winters with no autopilot 7 legs a day??

I thought they were unqualified bc they didn't have glass and jets?

You guys have an excuse for everything. An excuse for why any civilian experience is worse than military, and an excuse for why any military experience is better than civilian.

Cut the crap and just be honest about it being a hook up

You sound like a jilted lover with a tiny wang. But the Camaro and mirrored aviator glasses make you look cool!

Sounds like SWA is not exactly what you've been advertising. I mean, you despise and loathe an awful lot of your captains and fellow FOs for their "unfair" advantage in life. Those free-loading SOBs who never earned anything! How do you go to work day in and day out?

 

[waveflyer]

I thought FedEx thought anyone with over 6000 hours as untrainable?

Another excuse to not hire civilians^^

And speaking of fedex air cobra-

Their safety record is pretty awful- and we all know their military hiring preference

 

[waveflyer]

I think most civilian guys have more time hand flying a C172 than military guys have total time. So, if hand flying is where it is at I think you need to try again.

Yep, when I only had 1900 time, I was told I needed jet and glass and autopilot experience- now this moron is trying to tell us that military hand flying experience is what makes them get jobs...???

Please-
Excuses-

You guys have a good old boy club - nothing more. That's why you get jobs.
Just be honest.

 

[waveflyer]

You sound like a jilted lover with a tiny wang. But the Camaro and mirrored aviator glasses make you look cool!

Sounds like SWA is not exactly what you've been advertising. I mean, you despise and loathe an awful lot of your captains and fellow FOs for their "unfair" advantage in life. Those free-loading SOBs who never earned anything! How do you go to work day in and day out?

Id say you're wrong and trying to make this about me and ego and anything but the clear discrimination against civilian pilots in the hiring process.

Swa put a class through with 26 out of 30 having military backgrounds.

Do you think that's a correct ratio? A fair ratio?

Honest question

 

[Mamma]

Id say you're wrong and trying to make this about me and ego and anything but the clear discrimination against civilian pilots in the hiring process.

Swa put a class through with 26 out of 30 having military backgrounds.

Do you think that's a correct ratio? A fair ratio?

Honest question

Funny thing is a agree with you that the ratio appears unfair. What I did not agree with is you making it personal and insulting military guys. They didn't hire themselves. Your boss made the decision to recruit and hire them. Many of these guys you disparage are excellent pilots and good people. Don't blame them for getting the job. Blame your boss.

 

[waveflyer]

I am-
And I don't blame them for aggressively pursuing any opportunity.
But why is it unfair?

It wouldn't be unfair if the myth that mil pilots are superior were true.
It's only unfair bc civilians have earned much better than they are getting

 

[Flopgut]

I think the NFL is a good comparison to this job. In that, the hardest thing is to simply get on the field [hired]. Oftentimes the best recruits aren't quite as good as they were envisioned to be; Most are good. And then there are quarterbacks like Brady and Warner who were unlikely at best and barely got the shot (Warner came from arena football!)

How many Brady and Warner's are out there never have/will get a shot? Plenty of good pilots don't get a shot either. Take your turn and get out.

 

[pilotyip]

Funny thing is a agree with you that the ratio appears unfair. What I did not agree with is you making it personal and insulting military guys. They didn't hire themselves. Your boss made the decision to recruit and hire them. Many of these guys you disparage are excellent pilots and good people. Don't blame them for getting the job. Blame your boss.

Now this may only apply to the places I have worked, all secondary air carriers. But the military pilots seem to bitch about their lot in life a lot less than their civilian counter parts.

This may be because they volunteered to join the "service". In the "service" there is a corporate culture of serving others, and giving beyond yourself to accomplish your mission. It is not about yourself, it about giving for a greater good. This could also be why airlines like these guys they know how to fly, they are trainable and other pilots don't drop "purple dots" on them.

 

[AirCobra]

I think most civilian guys have more time hand flying a C172 than military guys have total time. So, if hand flying is where it is at I think you need to try again.

"Minimums are only 250 hours, which can be waived to 190 hours if you attended a collegiate or Part 141 flight training program."

Where were you in the two last decades? When I was in college people usually instructed for about 3 years before they got a job flying cancelled checks in a Cessna 210, where after all those years instructing (not flying), they learned how to fly all over again.

 

[AirCobra]

Another excuse to not hire civilians^^

And speaking of fedex air cobra-

Their safety record is pretty awful- and we all know their military hiring preference

They have a 70% military and 30% civilian. Out of those military pilots 62% are Air Force. That means they like to hire guys with heavy jet experience, which is pretty hard to get in the other services. So Fed Ex wants guys with heavy time. I don't think they would care if you got it from the Air Force or Kalitta or Tower, as long as you had it.

Delta and SWA also have a higher ratio of military pilots than many other carriers yet their safety records are pretty good. I actually think that is a dumb argument anyway. You know who crashes planes? pilots do. Every airline crash had pilots at the controls. It is total nonsense to say that military pilots, women, or black people or whatever crash more. They are all pilots. You might as well say pilots make the safest bus drivers because no pilot was driving during a major bus accident.

Here are more stats:

Ship captains run the most ship aground, than pilots.

Train engineers crash more trains than pilots.

Does that mean a pilot would make a better ship captain or train engineer?

 

[sat74]

Lots of very experienced acmi civilians with heavy time still on the street that were snubbed by FedEx.

 

[AirCobra]

I am-


It wouldn't be unfair if the myth that mil pilots are superior were true.
It's only unfair bc civilians have earned much better than they are getting

There is the gist of you mistake. Who said superior? Military pilots received better and more easily quantified training. All it does is serve as a predictor of how they will perform in a structured training environment. We know from the Colgan accident that even airline training leaves something to be desired because of its length, and often times there are business considerations, especially because of things like mergers or expansion.

I found airline training challenging, but it had nowhere near the expectations that were placed on me in military training (and I was already a civilian pilot). Like I keep saying, you haven't been through both so I don't think you can make an accurate comparison.