Air Force to UAL New Hire

user912

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Yep, not incapable

Unqualified.

Refute it if you don't like it- but it is the truth. We don't drop bombs at 121 carriers.
I'm sure it was a hell of an accomplishment, and fun, and lots of respectable things- but it relates to airline flying about as well as a floatplane

Unqualified but not Incapable

That should be the military only pilot's motto and it ain't necessarily a bad thing either. UAL's 400hr wonders back in the day were also Unqualified but not Incapable. As are many hired to fill quotas (nearly all I've flown with have been motivated and capable) not to mention the lucky Riddle guy here and there who got an internship, or the low time fella whose uncle was the CP. Having the right connections makes up for qualifications.

It's just the dishonesty of the whole thing that frustrates the RJ Captains and who can blame them?
 

Continental

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I thought it was all about the hat. Military guys used to wearing a hat. Plus they keep their hair short so the hat fits.

Rj guys don't like to wear the hat. Messes up the frosted tips or disheveled look that took 30 minutes to create.
 

Tripower455

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Many ex military are staunchly non yes men and are creative thinkers. They do exist.
Which is why I used the word "many".

The problem is perhaps the particular type of military pilot that SWA chooses. Of course the tools like to hire their fellow tools. Same with 'yes men'. Its like inbreeding - its a lot of fun, but there are sound reasons for it being out of fashion.
This is also true with the Kivilians SW hires. I am constantly amazed at the resistance to siding with labor a lot of my co workers display.

The pilots that you describe in your post are essential for the way the company is changing. It's hardly surprising considering the companies image. It's even less surprising when you look at what's happening with labor relations at this time.
There hasn't been a change in the labor, but management. Before, we were treated pretty well, overall, so there wasn't a great need for unity per se and most folks were happy. Now that this is changing, more folks are starting to realize that we're on a rudderless ship, but I'd be surprised if it was 50% of them, at least in the pilot group. Another few years of management screwing this place up by the numbers and we'll have much better unity, which is exactly what and how I feared it would happen around here.
 

waveflyer

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Unqualified but not Incapable

That should be the military only pilot's motto and it ain't necessarily a bad thing either. UAL's 400hr wonders back in the day were also Unqualified but not Incapable. As are many hired to fill quotas (nearly all I've flown with have been motivated and capable) not to mention the lucky Riddle guy here and there who got an internship, or the low time fella whose uncle was the CP. Having the right connections makes up for qualifications.

It's just the dishonesty of the whole thing that frustrates the RJ Captains and who can blame them?
Problem is, I was just as "unqualified" but capable at 2000 hours just like the mil guys- with few type ratings and years of 121 under my belt-
Nobody would accept a civilian like that- but every class has a military pilot with that time and no 121 experience and it's accepted as normal.
Yet my background isn't considered competitive and qualified until they have 6-8000 hours??

The problem is the unequal hookup for one of the best jobs in America

And you're right, it's dishonest
 

Turtle21

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Problem is, I was just as "unqualified" but capable at 2000 hours just like the mil guys- with few type ratings and years of 121 under my belt-

Nobody would accept a civilian like that- but every class has a military pilot with that time and no 121 experience and it's accepted as normal.

Yet my background isn't considered competitive and qualified until they have 6-8000 hours??



The problem is the unequal hookup for one of the best jobs in America



And you're right, it's dishonest

Mil pilots get far fewer hours per year. Typical civilian pilots start at the majors five to ten years younger than a Mil pilot. But who cares. It is what it is, and with my lobotomy I don't have the brain capacity anymore to process an entertaining protest.
 

Green

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That's a good point even if it was said tongue in cheek. Any pilot that constantly complains about co workers, whatever the reason, is generally the cause of the problem. Most pilots from all backgrounds are fine ( once you get to an airline you do, in fact, meet a general level of competence). If an individual is having problems with who he is flying with it is because HE is the problem. It simply is not that hard to competently get the job done, unless you are a doosh. In that case, YOU are the problem. Not the people you are working with.
That has to be one of the most insightful posts I've read on FI. Very well put. I agree 100%. If you have more than 1 or 2 people on your no fly list it's time to take a hard look in the mirror.
 

waveflyer

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So if I held a corporate job that flew me only 15 hours a month- I should get an opportunity at the same years of service as the RJ driver flying 90/month?

Both of us wouldn't be considered as having equal quals after year three, corp pilot having 2500 hours and the RJ driver having 5000 hours (assuming they both got hired with about 2k TT)

The RJ guy has twice the flight time and actually knows 121- so they would get opportunities over the corporate pilot-
Yet, the military pilot feels entitled because he doesn't fly very much-
Guess what- airlines fly you a lot. Not flying very much shouldn't mean you catch a break on how much time you need in order to be considered, it's another reason military pilots are generally unqualified for the positions they get hooked up into.
 

sat74

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Just look at all the guys getting called to interview at AA. 99.9% military! Wtf is up with that? Why doesn't someone file a complaint with the EEOC.
 

Green

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Just look at all the guys getting called to interview at AA. 99.9% military! Wtf is up with that? Why doesn't someone file a complaint with the EEOC.
That's not true. Go to airlinepilotforums.com Just read that half a recent class was Jet Blue. Definitely not anywhere close to 99% military.
 

pilotyip

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Mil pilots get far fewer hours per year.
Unless you are flying in a combat zone, which is what being a military pilot is all about, then you may be flying a 125 hours a month. I did over 700 hours in six months flying in Vietnam
 
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DCAA320

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Unless you are flying in a combat zone, which is what being a military pilot is all about, then you may be flying a 125 hours a month. I did over 700 hours in six months flying in Vietnam
Dude, u need to check your math/verbiage.
 
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pilotyip

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Dude, u need to check your math/verbiage.
a couple months only did around a 100 due to rotation cycles, so 6 X 125 = 750 - (2x25)= 700 + fudge factor of .023 std dev of median
 

DCAA320

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a couple months only did around a 100 due to rotation cycles, so 6 X 125 = 750 - (2x25)= 700 + fudge factor of .023 std dev of median
Your use of the word unless lost me Admiral :)

For us, unless you were in the gulf, you flew 20 hours a month.

In the gulf, we flew non stop.

Glad you made it back.
 
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pilotyip

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Your use of the word unless lost me Admiral :)

For us, unless you were in the gulf, you flew 20 hours a month.

In the gulf, we flew non stop.
ditto back in the states even in a P-3 it was about 30 hours a month. I never has a chance of making Admiral, I p!ssed off too many of my bosses along the line. :laugh:
 

sat74

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That's not true. Go to airlinepilotforums.com Just read that half a recent class was Jet Blue. Definitely not anywhere close to 99% military.
Yes and jb guys had mil backgrounds.
 

waveflyer

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Your use of the word unless lost me Admiral :)

For us, unless you were in the gulf, you flew 20 hours a month.

In the gulf, we flew non stop.

Glad you made it back.
So why would such low time not make you less qualified?
 

DCAA320

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So why would such low time not make you less qualified?

We are talking $$$ allocations during specific periods of time but you wanna know, we go out to the boat and land at night with no horizon.

When I was at Eagle, I noticed certain captains never landed at night, it was always my landing, for the entire month.
 

AirCobra

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Yep, not incapable

Unqualified.

Refute it if you don't like it- but it is the truth. We don't drop bombs at 121 carriers.
I'm sure it was a hell of an accomplishment, and fun, and lots of respectable things- but it relates to airline flying about as well as a floatplane
Yes you must be very qualified to turn on the autopilot.

I again have to remind you that you have not done both so you are speaking out of your buttocks. Many here have fired ordnance from an aircraft. Depending on the weapons sytem it typically involved moving the controls with enough finesse to keep a circle centered between two crossed needles or a circle inside of a box. Sort of like everything you do when you hand fly an airliner.

Please refrain from continually speaking of things you have no expereince with. I think you are a pretty intelligent and thoughful person but when it comes to this stuff you sound pretty ignorant.
 

AirCobra

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So why would such low time not make you less qualified?
Who spent more time actually flying? Takeoff-Autopilot-Land equates to how much ACTUAL flight time, in say a three hour period? Maybe 20 minutes? A fighter pilot with 1500 hours spent most of those 1500 hours actually manipulating the controls, you know flying, not complaining about their schedule, playing with their phone, or reading the paper.
 

AirCobra

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So if I held a corporate job that flew me only 15 hours a month- I should get an opportunity at the same years of service as the RJ driver flying 90/month?

Both of us wouldn't be considered as having equal quals after year three, corp pilot having 2500 hours and the RJ driver having 5000 hours (assuming they both got hired with about 2k TT)

The RJ guy has twice the flight time and actually knows 121- so they would get opportunities over the corporate pilot-
Yet, the military pilot feels entitled because he doesn't fly very much-
Guess what- airlines fly you a lot. Not flying very much shouldn't mean you catch a break on how much time you need in order to be considered, it's another reason military pilots are generally unqualified for the positions they get hooked up into.
You know and I know most of our time as airline pilots were not spent flying but sitting. That is why quite a few airline pilots own airplanes, they like to actually fly every now and then. Just because a guy sat in an RJ more hours than a guy in an F-16 actually spent flying doesn't make them a whole lot more skilled.

EDIT: Let me add civilian guys eat their own too. It seems everyone wants glass cockpit time. Guys who flew first generation jets or single pilot freight in a Metroliner could likely fly the pants off a 4,000 hour RJ jockey, but who cares anymore? it's all about who can they push buttons in the right sequence. Airline flying is not about flying, its about sitting and pushing buttons, thus they value pushing buttons over actual pilot skills. Sometime in the future they will do away with aircraft type ratings and you will get typed on an avioncs package.
 
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