Air Force to UAL New Hire

[Mamma]

.......

 

[SIG600]

Wave you usually post pretty level headed insight around here, but this one you've really let your pure uneducated bias out of the bag. You know zero of what you talk about when it comes to mil experience. Yes the first 25 hours of OE are pretty dizzying, but that feeling of bombardment and feeling overwhelmed is where mil guys, especially fighter guys, thrive. It's not cosmic, it's learning the process and nuances just like any other job on the planet. I would argue that my mil experience has be thinking too far ahead. My first medical emergency, while on OE, I had already taken the airplane and forumlated half a dozen courses of action while the Captain worked with dispatch. Most of us aren't seat meat, and while a Regional Captain has probably done it himself, that's the essence of CRM, a melding of experience and resources in the cockpit. Where do we learn that multi tasking and leadership support? These days for a mil guy, that comes from the ultimate crucible of trial by fire... pure unadulterated combat.

And no one gave us our jobs, we had to apply and interview with everyone else. I spent close to $7k preparing through interview prep, buying sim time, etc. I don't know a single guy that felt entitled and didn't pour every ounce of effort into preparation. I know guys that shelled out over $10k buying tickets for last minute plane tickets to make sim prep sessions, network with chief pilots, etc. Are mil guys good at networking? You bet. Are there Regional guys hitting up their buddies for recs and in's networking in the exact same fashion? Damn right. The only one here that can't see the massive chip on your shoulder is you.

 

[Turtle21]

Yep, you guys really need a new you.

 

[fareview]

Wave,

Stop embarrassing those of us who never flew military.

You have lost...retreat...it's called decision making...exercise some.

fv

 

[AirCobra]

Wave you usually post pretty level headed insight around here, but this one you've really let your pure uneducated bias out of the bag. You know zero of what you talk about when it comes to mil experience. Yes the first 25 hours of OE are pretty dizzying, but that feeling of bombardment and feeling overwhelmed is where mil guys, especially fighter guys, thrive. It's not cosmic, it's learning the process and nuances just like any other job on the planet. I would argue that my mil experience has be thinking too far ahead. My first medical emergency, while on OE, I had already taken the airplane and forumlated half a dozen courses of action while the Captain worked with dispatch. Most of us aren't seat meat, and while a Regional Captain has probably done it himself, that's the essence of CRM, a melding of experience and resources in the cockpit. Where do we learn that multi tasking and leadership support? These days for a mil guy, that comes from the ultimate crucible of trial by fire... pure unadulterated combat.

And no one gave us our jobs, we had to apply and interview with everyone else. I spent close to $7k preparing through interview prep, buying sim time, etc. I don't know a single guy that felt entitled and didn't pour every ounce of effort into preparation. I know guys that shelled out over $10k buying tickets for last minute plane tickets to make sim prep sessions, network with chief pilots, etc. Are mil guys good at networking? You bet. Are there Regional guys hitting up their buddies for recs and in's networking in the exact same fashion? Damn right. The only one here that can't see the massive chip on your shoulder is you.

You know I never even thought about that. We were focusing on SWA in this discussion. Didn't/Don't they require a 737 type? Were places like Higher Power giving those away with a secret handshake to military guys, or did they have to go through the same training and check as civilian only pilots?

I will add I went through interview prep and bought some time in a sim too. At the time United also had an intern program with some schools where college students got FE training and an interview (yes it was a long time ago). My interview group only had three military guys in it. All of us went through the same testing and eval process as the civilian only pilots did. No one of were singled out for preferential treatment. Training was the same too, as was IOE. I really can't figure out what Wave is still going on about.

 

[Scrapdog]

Sig is spot on. This post ((or should I say WF (the mil hater) vs the rest of the forum) is really a black hole and so far from factual data it's a farce. I'm a fighter pilot, FTU IP in a fighter, and a fly for a major airline. I'm also a CFI, CFII, and MEI and I've taught at a civilian mom-and-pop flight school. The quality of training a mil guy gets are hands down superior, bar none. Not just tactics, but basic airmanship as well. Going into specifics is beyond the scope of the thread. Sorry, but this is indeed the case.

Now, does this mean civilian trained pilots are inferior? Heck no. My dad, a civilian only pilot (and CFI), taught me to fly and he's still one of the best stick and rudder guys I'll ever meet. I may be a little biased on that point but I have nothing against civ only guys. Frankly I could care less what the other guy's background is when I sit on the flight deck flying for the airlines. What matters is really how enjoyable a guy is, how he interacts with the crew and others, and can he keep cool if a non-standard issue arises.

Back to the first paragraph?a mil guy starting at a major is partly behind the power curve initially. That is true. However, they are caught up and at the same point (or further ahead) than their civilian counterparts by hour X (let's call it 25 hours in the airplane or perhaps their first 4 day OE trip). The "pushback" procedures, two crew CRM (for single seat guys), and reading Jepps are indeed new. But the stick and rudder skills are 100% there and there is absolutely ZERO REASON to start at a regional. Never has been, never will.

 

[waveflyer]

Thoroughly disagree

You are biased-

Many of you fighter guys take your bad habits and crm all the way to the left seat-

Maybe you can't see it

Agree to disagree - as far as handling airliners- civs are tops-

But I'm over this- seems everyone is convinced their background is the best -

One group admits to being behind on day 1- shouldn't be that way at an end goal major

IMHO - go to a regional and get qual'd - esp fighter jockeys

Previous point is right on- my problem is not with mil pilots- it's with ex mil pilots in charge of hiring who establish a good ole boy network and hire their own at civilian's expense

I know I've been inflammatory, but the end point is still good-

Have Civilian pilots earned better than a 20% hiring rate?

I say yes.

That ought not be that controversial-
But like all things FI- attacking people's background has predictable results and ultimately just pissing in the wind

I want you to keep your pride of all accomplishments-
Just don't try and take away mine- especially when you do t have my achievements and are now looking for work in my area of expertise

With that I'm done

Fire away

 

[Turtle21]

Thoroughly disagree

You are biased-

Many of you fighter guys take your bad habits and crm all the way to the left seat-

Maybe you can't see it

Agree to disagree - as far as handling airliners- civs are tops-

But I'm over this- seems everyone is convinced their background is the best -

One group admits to being behind on day 1- shouldn't be that way at an end goal major

IMHO - go to a regional and get qual'd - esp fighter jockeys

Previous point is right on- my problem is not with mil pilots- it's with ex mil pilots in charge of hiring who establish a good ole boy network and hire their own at civilian's expense

I know I've been inflammatory, but the end point is still good-

Have Civilian pilots earned better than a 20% hiring rate?

I say yes.

That ought not be that controversial-
But like all things FI- attacking people's background has predictable results and ultimately just pissing in the wind

I want you to keep your pride of all accomplishments-
Just don't try and take away mine- especially when you do t have my achievements and are now looking for work in my area of expertise

With that I'm done

Fire away

Personally as a heavy mil pilot I feel discriminated against by fighter pilots that don't have any experience hauling rubber dog pooh or passengers. I flew scheduled passenger flights all over the world and I am way more qualified than fighter pilots but they get all the breaks.... and their chicks are skinny with balloons on their chests.

It is just so unfair. Nobody appreciates heavy pilots, our chicks are fat, and we always lose the yellow snow contest.

 

[pilotyip]

The quality of training a mil guy gets are hands down superior, bar none. Not just tactics, but basic airmanship as well. Going into specifics is beyond the scope of the thread. Sorry, but this is indeed the case.

You are gifted in that you can see both sides. There is know quanity with a military trained pilots. First they are pre-screened, they face a Student Pilot Disposition board at any sign of unsatisfactory progress, and there is little time building in the training program. Every flight has a training objective. The training is done in advanced turbine airplanes from day one. The militarty student pilots are dealing with the Flight Levels and 300 Kts before they reach 100 hours of flight time. The military also accepts a much higher risk is pushing their training objectives. I think we had a student fatality a month in the training command.

Can anyone become a military pilot, of course, but not everyone has the qualifications or the desire.

As I said above if you have not been on both sides, you can not appreciate the differences.

 

[AirCobra]

Thoroughly disagree

You are biased-

Many of you fighter guys take your bad habits and crm all the way to the left seat-

Maybe you can't see it

Agree to disagree - as far as handling airliners- civs are tops-

But I'm over this- seems everyone is convinced their background is the best -

One group admits to being behind on day 1- shouldn't be that way at an end goal major

IMHO - go to a regional and get qual'd - esp fighter jockeys

Previous point is right on- my problem is not with mil pilots- it's with ex mil pilots in charge of hiring who establish a good ole boy network and hire their own at civilian's expense

I know I've been inflammatory, but the end point is still good-

Have Civilian pilots earned better than a 20% hiring rate?

I say yes.

That ought not be that controversial-
But like all things FI- attacking people's background has predictable results and ultimately just pissing in the wind

I want you to keep your pride of all accomplishments-
Just don't try and take away mine- especially when you do t have my achievements and are now looking for work in my area of expertise

With that I'm done

Fire away

I found an interview from 2011 with Southwest hiring manager Rocky Calkins in the Air Force Times. He said Southwest has approx. 6100 pilots, 45% of whom are former military (that means there are more civilian only pilots at Southwest Wave). He also said they are getting less pilots from the Air Force because many guys coming off active duty don't meet the minimum flight hour requirements (so much for secret handshakes).

Well that says to me that you seem to have the problem, not Southwest. I doubt you will be demanding Southwest increase their military hiring to make the ratio equal, but hey advocating one-way fairness has always been the FI way.

BTW do you have those class stats for the 80/20 split? How many were heavy or 737 guys. How many already had civilian experience? Were any civilian pilots hired with lower TT than the military only people?

 

[user912]

Anyone ever meet Sully? A really dry wit. Once when asked if the lack of pilots coming out of the military would make the airlines less safe (because we all know that only a fighter jock could ditch) he said, "Well.... to be honest, I learned a lot more about energy management teaching in gliders back home." Should we have affirmative action for those rated in gliders?

Waveflyer has admitted that he flies with great military pilots. Can we hear a little more grace and magnanimity from the other side of the peanut gallery?

Both sides have great pilots; it's just that the civilians aren't bi-lingual. Once, I jump seated on Greak Lakes and told the captain that I got checked out in the C-12 before I left. I wanted to give him some encouragement by appearing sympatico His reaction: "Wow! Awesome. What was it like flying something that big?"
I told him, "You'd be surprised how much it handled like a little 1900"

 

[hammer2]

Personally as a heavy mil pilot I feel discriminated against by fighter pilots that don't have any experience hauling rubber dog pooh or passengers. I flew scheduled passenger flights all over the world and I am way more qualified than fighter pilots but they get all the breaks.... and their chicks are skinny with balloons on their chests.

It is just so unfair. Nobody appreciates heavy pilots, our chicks are fat, and we always lose the yellow snow contest.

:laugh: you rock!

 

[user912]

The militarty student pilots are dealing with the Flight Levels and 300 Knots before they reach 100 hours of flight time.

Which would be a very valid consideration if the airlines only had 100hr pilots to choose from.

 

[ROSWELL41]

In 10 years, there will be so few military pilots I bet the hiring will be 80-90% civilian everywhere. Now if they start hiring military UAV 'pilots' and they go straight to the majors, then the fix is in.

 

[AirCobra]

Waveflyer has admitted that he flies with great military pilots. Can we hear a little more grace and magnanimity from the other side of the peanut gallery?

Wave said a lot of other things without really being able to back them up (the secret handshakes in hiring and in military pilot selection), and this is not the first thread he has done this in either. He has an obvious chip on his shoulder. I think he is really suffering from "is that all there is?" syndrome. He spoke a lot about how he always wanted to fly in the airlines and how he never gave a hoot about flying in the military, and now that he has reached his goal he is likely thinking "that's it? that's all there is?"

People react differently to this discovery. Some rock starts soak themselves in booze and alcohol, some pilots seek outside interests, while others fly antique aircraft, and still others work in management, unions, or training. I think Wave takes out his frustrations by finding a group he does not identify with, and making them the source of his frustrations. I think its an unhealthy thing to do just as drugs and drinking are, but it is a very common reaction. I know he is a intelligent and thoughtful person, but like us all sometimes our biases get the better of us.