Flexjet DO

[doh]

Problem for the Flex pilots now is that your content world is about to change. The changes will start slowly so that no single event will wake you up. Then one day you do wake up and ask yourself how did I get here?

Actually, I'm watching for small changes. And some of them are disturbing already.

 

[jetwash]

I have no idea what Fr8dog is talking about all of the Flex pilots I have talked to have been really nice and friendly.

We are all just trying to get as much information as we can as to what KR has planned for all of us. So don't assume all Flops pilots are like an anonymous poster on the internet.

 

[FR8DOG777]

Don't make me find the quotes. However I am willing to put my negative anti-union conversations with SOME flex pilots, not ALL in the past. I am eager to join flex pilots as brothers in arms fighting the true enemy of our profession, Kenn Ricci and the deplorable working conditions and pay. There is much uncertainty right now, but this is for certain. There will be consolidation as well as a vote for representation. TEAMSTERS are by far a better solution than Ricci slave labor. We have an opportunity to rightfully take back a quality standard of living commensurate with industry standard pay in a good economy. Anything short of that is a no vote for me. If flex votes the union out tearing down nine years of our collective efforts you don't have to worry about old fr8 cause I wont be here. I bear no ill will or animosity towards ANY flex pilots. I WILL AGREE TO DISAGREE THAT WE DO NOT REQUIRE ADEQUATE REPRESENTATION TO PROTECT US FROM THE ATROCITIES COMMITTED AGAINST US ON A DAILY BASIS FROM INEPT GREEDY MANAGEMENT. Good day

 

[Club ORD FO]

The majority of Flex Pilots may be anti union now, but if we end up merging with FLOPS and lose a lot of pay, benefits, and QOL, then it might be a different story. You say that you're worried the Flex pilots will tear down everything you've worked hard to build, and I get that, but keep in mind we're worried about being forced onto your pay and work rules, and thus losing everything we've built. I think it is best for everyone involved if we stay separate. Wishful thinking?

 

[chainring]

The majority of Flex Pilots may be anti union now, but if we end up merging with FLOPS and lose a lot of pay, benefits, and QOL, then it might be a different story. You say that you're worried the Flex pilots will tear down everything you've worked hard to build, and I get that, but keep in mind we're worried about being forced onto your pay and work rules, and thus losing everything we've built. I think it is best for everyone involved if we stay separate. Wishful thinking?

Without a CBA you will have no security with this group. He may keep things ok just long enough to get rid of the Union but after that he will tear down your pay and benefits you have now. Then it's another 4 yr process to organize and negotiate a new union contract.

 

[jetwash]

, but keep in mind we're worried about being forced onto your pay and work rules, and thus losing everything we've built.

The pilots at Flight Options don't want you forced onto our pay scale we want to force the company to put us on your pay scale.

Lets not forget that when NetJets got their big raise CitationShares and Flex gave big pay raises to match or come close.

The Flight Options pilots were also waiting for that big raise but it never came, hence the reason we started to organize.
We went through years of negotiations and had to fight to secure a fraction of what Bombardier gave you without a fight.

Now we are all working for "The Man" who didn't want to provide industry standard pay without a fight. Please keep that in mind that it was KR and not the FO pilots who wanted us to be the lowest paid.

 

[chainring]

I wish no ill will on any of the Flex guys and gals. But It is going to be a sad day if we lose the protections and work rules of the Union. And remember we negotiated this "first" contract during very crappy economy. Anything Flex had before was because of Bombardier. Ricci is not or ever will be Bombardier. Once he wins and gets rid of the Union he knows it just bought him years Ricci management bliss. What you have today will be long gone and no contract in place that could be renogiated in better times which we all see is happening.

 

[DirtyBeech]

The majority of Flex Pilots may be anti union now, but if we end up merging with FLOPS and lose a lot of pay, benefits, and QOL, then it might be a different story. You say that you're worried the Flex pilots will tear down everything you've worked hard to build, and I get that, but keep in mind we're worried about being forced onto your pay and work rules, and thus losing everything we've built. I think it is best for everyone involved if we stay separate. Wishful thinking?

Very wishful.

We're already sharing management and the lawyers are at work behind the scenes. You can believe that. Uniform and paint changes are openly talked about and coming. I can say with some certainty that we already have an FX tail undergoing a Flopsification. Separate storefronts are not separate companies. I don't know how the seniority list will be merged, but it will be, fence agreements will be out in place ( probably timed to coincide with the IBT's new contract or decertification vote) and then it's anyone's guess.

 

[993_Pilot]

I thought the 1108 was on record as saying they would follow McCaskill/Bond regarding seniority integration? Isn't the reason they gave for refusing to sign the CitationAir LOA was that M/B prevented them from doing so?

M/B did prevent it, but is also doesn't say exactly how seniority list must be integrated. M/B simply requires that we need to follow the Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions, which basically say that the carrier make provisions for the integration of seniority lists in a "fair and equitable manner," including negotiation with union representatives and binding arbitration in covered transactions. The participants in the negotiation/arbitration process are the affected employee groups, and the carrier or carriers involved. The interests of unionized employee groups are represented by their union, while interests of non-unionized employee groups may be represented by employee committees or by the carrier. Firing all the Citation Air pilots would certainly not have been "Fair and Equitable" for them, therefore the IBT could not sign that LOA. KR could have gone forward with the purchase anyways, if he was serious, but we all know it was a game of smoke and mirrors designed to create FUD. Now getting back to the current deal, it is easy to see why DOH is likely to be considered the simplest, "fair and equitable" manner for Seniority integration of Flex and Flops, although there are obviously other possibilities that could be considered.

 

[shanes123]

KR is gonna win this. He pretty much already has with the citation air trickery Best advice is for every pilot out there to move on. Easier said then done. But with opportunities out there this isn't a bad time. Good luck.

 

[dime line]

The majority of Flex Pilots may be anti union now, but if we end up merging with FLOPS and lose a lot of pay, benefits, and QOL, then it might be a different story. You say that you're worried the Flex pilots will tear down everything you've worked hard to build, and I get that, but keep in mind we're worried about being forced onto your pay and work rules, and thus losing everything we've built. I think it is best for everyone involved if we stay separate. Wishful thinking?

I speak for myself, I don t want FLEX to loose one dime of pay, we start negotiation next year and Flex is profitable as is, and that is where we will start. I think this next contract will have a lot more no votes if it is not on par with industry. I voted Yes last time cause you have to start somewhere and the company was in a hurt locker in a real bad way. I might not be the highest paid right now, but I don't have to worry about an email changing my family's life, not for the better.

 

[Rubber Ducky]

IF I WERE IN KENNS SHOES

Disclaimer... The following is a pipe dream that both Mgmt and Pilot would benefit from. THE FOLLOWING IS NOT REALITY, yet.

First, I'd be upset that from my pilots point of view, I didn't follow through on my promise of always having the highest pay in the industry. My intentions were good but when NetJets got the big bump, I was no longer capable of unilaterally making good on my promise. I don't believe that I'm not capable of running a business with a union but I just don't want to. That said, I accept the decision you collectively make in the coming months.

The reality is that long term, we cannot operate as separate storefronts, Greater than 50% of our population has heard of NetJets, 5 % remembers hearing about them and less than 1% knows what they do. Conversely, less than 5% has ever been exposed to a FlexJet or FlightOptions advertisement. Luckily, the entire population is not our target audience and we do a great job with precision targeting. Moving forward, we simply cannot effectively market two brands. The economy is recovering and a labor dispute right now is going to result in a lost opportunity for the company and our employees.

Here's my offer... To be implemented by LOA with IBT this week and effective Feb. 1 if 1108 is agreeable and via electronic survey if Flex Pilots.

Immediate increase of pay fir bith pilot groups to current FlexJet plus 10%. LOA will also guarantee no lower than this threshold in the next contract. We are providing the pay bump to Flex pilots wether they like it or not.

Immediate opening of all Flight Options bases to Flexjet pilots.

Marketing efforts will commence post haste upon 1108 signing the LOA.

In parallel, will work to develop two identical sets of work rules, implementing the highest common denominator in ALL cases. This will allow the two groups to be functional until we can merge the two groups under either a union contract or my preferred alternative.

This is the right thing to do. It also gives me the highest likelihood of success when you collectively vote, again, on union representation. But regardless of who you choose to represent your interests, we can put our fears and differences aside and concentrate on taking advantage of current market conditions, growing this business and retaining the superb pilot group.

Similarly, we must consolidate our operations and will pay for all relocation expenses for operations personnel PLUS a $20,000 stipend for the pain and suffering caused by relocating. Everyone will be offered a position in XYZ. Due to growth expectations, we are going to need every one of you.

Flame away!!

 

[doh]

IF I WERE IN KENNS SHOES

Disclaimer... The following is a pipe dream that both Mgmt and Pilot would benefit from. THE FOLLOWING IS NOT REALITY, yet.

First, I'd be upset that from my pilots point of view, I didn't follow through on my promise of always having the highest pay in the industry. My intentions were good but when NetJets got the big bump, I was no longer capable of unilaterally making good on my promise. I don't believe that I'm not capable of running a business with a union but I just don't want to. That said, I accept the decision you collectively make in the coming months.

The reality is that long term, we cannot operate as separate storefronts, Greater than 50% of our population has heard of NetJets, 5 % remembers hearing about them and less than 1% knows what they do. Conversely, less than 5% has ever been exposed to a FlexJet or FlightOptions advertisement. Luckily, the entire population is not our target audience and we do a great job with precision targeting. Moving forward, we simply cannot effectively market two brands. The economy is recovering and a labor dispute right now is going to result in a lost opportunity for the company and our employees.

Here's my offer... To be implemented by LOA with IBT this week and effective Feb. 1 if 1108 is agreeable and via electronic survey if Flex Pilots.

Immediate increase of pay fir bith pilot groups to current FlexJet plus 10%. LOA will also guarantee no lower than this threshold in the next contract. We are providing the pay bump to Flex pilots wether they like it or not.

Immediate opening of all Flight Options bases to Flexjet pilots.

Marketing efforts will commence post haste upon 1108 signing the LOA.

In parallel, will work to develop two identical sets of work rules, implementing the highest common denominator in ALL cases. This will allow the two groups to be functional until we can merge the two groups under either a union contract or my preferred alternative.

This is the right thing to do. It also gives me the highest likelihood of success when you collectively vote, again, on union representation. But regardless of who you choose to represent your interests, we can put our fears and differences aside and concentrate on taking advantage of current market conditions, growing this business and retaining the superb pilot group.

Similarly, we must consolidate our operations and will pay for all relocation expenses for operations personnel PLUS a $20,000 stipend for the pain and suffering caused by relocating. Everyone will be offered a position in XYZ. Due to growth expectations, we are going to need every one of you.

Flame away!!

Sounds good to me.

 

[luckydog]

Now getting back to the current deal, it is easy to see why DOH is likely to be considered the simplest, "fair and equitable" manner for Seniority integration of Flex and Flops, although there are obviously other possibilities that could be considered.

I would agree that DOH is the simplest, it might not be the most fair. A fair list integration would require that neither group gain or lose in excess. Relative integration does that.

Fair integration does mess up the plans of the more rabid IBT fans that want the Flexjet airplanes, pay, and schedule while retaining their FLOPS CBA. They still seem to think that FLOPs bought Flexjet, not DAC. IF this integration comes about, it's will be 2 unwilling strangers meeting at the altar for their shotgun wedding.

 

[el raton]

I would agree that DOH is the simplest, it might not be the most fair. A fair list integration would require that neither group gain or lose in excess. Relative integration does that.

Fair integration does mess up the plans of the more rabid IBT fans that want the Flexjet airplanes, pay, and schedule while retaining their FLOPS CBA. They still seem to think that FLOPs bought Flexjet, not DAC. IF this integration comes about, it's will be 2 unwilling strangers meeting at the altar for their shotgun wedding.

I understand the most junior active pilot at FO was hired around 2000sh. A large portion of captains at Flexjet were hired after 2001. If we were to integrate the pilots by doh would some of these captains be looking at a downgrade after a certain period of time? Or would a fence prevent that from happening as long as that airplane type is part of the fleet?

Also, with the doh scenario, if you're a captain on a fleet that's being discontinued, will you move to a different fleet as a captain or will you downgrade to an fo?