Mindset of the typical US Airways east pilot?

[get2flyin]

We took responsibility into our own hands and that's why we are Usapa!!!
Argue all you want the facts remain the Nic was a non starter and the west greed caused this mess. Plus a senile arbitraitor. You can place a 18 year never furloughed pilot next to a new hire. Ain't gonna work!!!!
Alpa wise up and changed the policy when they saw the mistake and abortion Nicolau caused the piloting profession. The east pilots did this to preserve the only thing we all bring to a merger: DATE OF HIRE!

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you were that "18 year never furloughed pilot". Am I right?

 

[waveflyer]

Nic placed him senior to our guys

No they didn't
Jesus, this is why those of us who've been in the industry call this "dumb"

There's really no other word.

Now, for the inanely stupid, I'll type slow

You hired in 2007 didn't you?
Those new hires (3rd listers) were placed directly under your most junior FO who had how many years with AAA?

Identical seniority for the rest of their career even though the pilot one number senior to that new hire had a decade more longevity

Can you please acknowledge what seniority actually is?

 

[St. Nic]

No they didn't
Jesus, this is why those of us who've been in the industry call this "dumb"

There's really no other word.

Now, for the inanely stupid, I'll type slow

You hired in 2007 didn't you?
Those new hires (3rd listers) were placed directly under your most junior FO who had how many years with AAA?

Identical seniority for the rest of their career even though the pilot one number senior to that new hire had a decade more longevity

Can you please acknowledge what seniority actually is?

Seniority is determined by your hire date. Period! In your example you asked about the newhires being placed directly below the most junior FO. Our junior FO was hired in 2001. So, what is only fair is if an AMerican West pilot who was hired in 2002 is placed below the 2001 hired pilot. What is wrong with that?

 

[General Lee]

Seniority is determined by your hire date. Period! In your example you asked about the newhires being placed directly below the most junior FO. Our junior FO was hired in 2001. So, what is only fair is if an AMerican West pilot who was hired in 2002 is placed below the 2001 hired pilot. What is wrong with that?

Which arbitrators as of late have accepted DOH for any of the recent mergers? Answer: NONE. Don't sign up for BINDING ARBITRATION if you won't accept the award, and the great thing is your side chose NIC...... He was one of your three choices. Ooooops.


Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[Superbird]

Which arbitrators as of late have accepted DOH for any of the recent mergers? Answer: NONE. Don't sign up for BINDING ARBITRATION if you won't accept the award, and the great thing is your side chose NIC...... He was one of your three choices. Ooooops.


Bye Bye----General Lee

Go easy on St Nic. Usapa is free pouring the 'good stuff' to its followers and it appears St Nic just can't get enough.

People tend to imbibe more freely when they are stressed about losing something. Judge Silver must really have these clowns in a tizzy; east vs east, recalls, pizza...so hard to follow; as the dysfunction continues to collect at the door.

The smell of cigarettes and broken dreams are about all that's left at ******************************s WHQ. Sad really.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Seniority is determined by your hire date. Period! In your example you asked about the newhires being placed directly below the most junior FO. Our junior FO was hired in 2001. So, what is only fair is if an AMerican West pilot who was hired in 2002 is placed below the 2001 hired pilot. What is wrong with that?

You are not adding AW pilots to YOUR list, you are developing a NEW list for a NEW airline. That never sunk in, did it?

I doubt you are a "never furloughed pilot", more likely a never hired pilot.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Gee NIC, why didn't you form USAPA before the seniority negotiations began? Then your fantasy could have come true. Heck, you might have salvaged a shred of dignity.

Shoulda woulda coulda, eh, Nic?

 

[Bringupthebird]

The smell of cigarettes and broken dreams are about all that's left at ******************************s WHQ. Sad really.

Are you kidding? McKee is planning on taking over at APA. Just ask him.

 

[A350]

Wave:

Again....if memory serves, ALPA merger policy changed after the first UAL/USAir attempt. The second merger was approved, but UAL would not divest what the DOJ wanted, so they forked over the $50 mil and walked.

There was no way that USAir's MEC would be able to get the votes for changing ALPA merger policy when one of the elephants was trying to get it changed (and no less in their favor).

No one at USAir east was going to advocate a DOH list without any conditions and restrictions. In other words, an East furloughee with 15 years seniority was not about to go bump a West 757 Captain. That has always been the West's arguement for saying no to a DOH list. Allowing a DOH list with conditions and restrictions would have allowed the East pilots, who were generally older and more senior, to close out their careers flying a widebody. This was their right, as they broght the widebodies to the table. The Nic list made sure this would never happen. He did protect the top 500 or so pilots who were flying the widebody, but he threw the others who had it in their career expectations to the wolves. The West pilots were allowed to get in a place that guarantees them widebody flying day one of the implementation date when they never had that in their expectations. It is pretty lopsided.

The answer to your question is that no one would have ever believed that an ALPA/ALPA merger could go so lopsided. Why would you try to change something that you believed would never bite you so hard?

A350

 

[Jim]

...but he threw the others who had it in their career expectations to the wolves. ..

Except that the career expectations of all east pilots at that time were to be on the street under chapter 7. All you east pilots seem to conveniently forget this little fact.

 

[waveflyer]

350,
I get that it's important, but you've read the award. You know Nicolau ABSOLUTELY DID consider those items- you just disagree with his assessment.

As for the history- isn't that the very definition of apathy?

If you'd always held this DOH stance and put it down in the history books through effort and action before this merger, you might have a leg to stand on. Maybe if you'd been proactive, understood your risk and bailed on ALPA forming usapa BEFORE this merger- things would have gone differently.
As it is- how are you not responsible for CHOOSING TO UNDERCUT ALL OF OUR CAREER over a misguided view of what seniority is.

It's not a longevity integration. It's a seniority integration. If you're furloughed or at or near the bottom of a list- YOU ARE AT RISK. YOU HAVE NO SENIORITY TO BE INTEGRATED INTO. This is embarrassingly simple airline stuff. Our love hate decidedly not merit oriented seniority system is Airline 101. Riddle grads understand this sh/t

My question is- I do this career for money. I do love flying. But it is a paycheck. I clearly don't have widebody envy, as you can see from where I chose to work- but isn't there a line where working under LOA 93 is less beneficial than implementing the Nic. Besides you only have 30 widebodies... Are you really chasing the carrot that bad?
Is the experience of flying captain on a widebody for SWA FO wages that big a deal? Is that what you are then? Just a dressed up GULFSTREAM airlines where instead of PFTing them $25k,you leave $millions on the table so you can say you're a heavy pilot?

This FIGHT, is so ingrained now, it's become a cause unto itself without logical application of what the Nic award actually would mean.

I promise you, the world will keep spinning. Looking at the list, it's not the career Armageddon you fear. It just isn't.

Has it been worth it? How do you justify being party to a divide and conquer? Parker gets to be Lorenzo without the blame

How can you take this stand under LOA 93 wages?
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/us_airways
The VAST MAJORITY OF YOUR CAPTAINS MAKE $125/hour (or much less e-190= $101/hour)

You've got republic flying e175's for $40k more per year than their mainline counterparts on worse work rules.

So happy when this gets resolved and hope that APA integrates the Nic and you guys all MOVE ON WITH YOUR CAREER AND LIVES.
Sincerely- but no matter- please realize you've lost something that is much more valuable to me- respect. Industry wide.
I've got NO skin in this -other than I resent being undercut so badly wage wise. Just another former legacy pilot, multiple airline industry guy that has truly lost respect for the collective AAA group.

 

[waveflyer]

350,
I get that it's important, but you've read the award. You know Nicolau ABSOLUTELY DID consider those items- you just disagree with his assessment.

As for the history- isn't that the very definition of apathy?

If you'd always held this DOH stance and put it down in the history books through effort and action before this merger, you might have a leg to stand on. Maybe if you'd been proactive, understood your risk and bailed on ALPA forming usapa BEFORE this merger- things would have gone differently.
As it is- how are you not responsible for CHOOSING TO UNDERCUT ALL OF OUR CAREER over a misguided view of what seniority is.

It's not a longevity integration. It's a seniority integration. If you're furloughed or at or near the bottom of a list- YOU ARE AT RISK. YOU HAVE NO SENIORITY TO BE INTEGRATED INTO. This is embarrassingly simple airline stuff. Our love hate decidedly not merit oriented seniority system is Airline 101. Riddle grads understand this sh/t

My question is- I do this career for money. I do love flying. But it is a paycheck. I clearly don't have widebody envy, as you can see from where I chose to work- but isn't there a line where working under LOA 93 is less beneficial than implementing the Nic? Besides you only have 30 widebodies. Think about that. You have 4 more heavy jets than Hawaiian. Are you really chasing the carrot that bad?
Is the experience of flying captain on a widebody for SWA FO wages that big a deal? Is that what you are then? Just a dressed up GULFSTREAM airlines where instead of PFTing them $25k,you leave $millions on the table so you can say you're a heavy driver?

This FIGHT, is so ingrained now, it's become a cause unto itself without logical application of what the Nic award actually would mean.

I promise you, the world will keep spinning. Looking at the list, it's not the career Armageddon you fear. It just isn't.

Has it been worth it? How do you justify being party to a divide and conquer? Parker gets to be Lorenzo without the blame

How can you take this stand under LOA 93 wages?
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/us_airways
The VAST MAJORITY OF YOUR CAPTAINS MAKE $125/hour (or much less e-190= $101/hour)

You've got republic flying e175's for $40k more per year than their mainline counterparts on better work rules.

So happy when this gets resolved and hope that APA integrates the Nic and you guys all MOVE ON WITH YOUR CAREER AND LIVES.
Sincerely- but no matter- please realize you've lost something that is much more valuable to me- respect. Industry wide.
I've got NO skin in this -other than I resent being undercut so badly wage wise. Just another former legacy pilot, multiple airline industry guy that has truly lost respect for the collective AAA group.

 

[doh]

Wave, that is beautifully said!

 

[Guppiedriver]

350,
I get that it's important, but you've read the award. You know Nicolau ABSOLUTELY DID consider those items- you just disagree with his assessment.

As for the history- isn't that the very definition of apathy?

If you'd always held this DOH stance and put it down in the history books through effort and action before this merger, you might have a leg to stand on. Maybe if you'd been proactive, understood your risk and bailed on ALPA forming usapa BEFORE this merger- things would have gone differently.
As it is- how are you not responsible for CHOOSING TO UNDERCUT ALL OF OUR CAREER over a misguided view of what seniority is.

It's not a longevity integration. It's a seniority integration. If you're furloughed or at or near the bottom of a list- YOU ARE AT RISK. YOU HAVE NO SENIORITY TO BE INTEGRATED INTO. This is embarrassingly simple airline stuff. Our love hate decidedly not merit oriented seniority system is Airline 101. Riddle grads understand this sh/t

My question is- I do this career for money. I do love flying. But it is a paycheck. I clearly don't have widebody envy, as you can see from where I chose to work- but isn't there a line where working under LOA 93 is less beneficial than implementing the Nic. Besides you only have 30 widebodies... Are you really chasing the carrot that bad?
Is the experience of flying captain on a widebody for SWA FO wages that big a deal? Is that what you are then? Just a dressed up GULFSTREAM airlines where instead of PFTing them $25k,you leave $millions on the table so you can say you're a heavy pilot?

This FIGHT, is so ingrained now, it's become a cause unto itself without logical application of what the Nic award actually would mean.

I promise you, the world will keep spinning. Looking at the list, it's not the career Armageddon you fear. It just isn't.

Has it been worth it? How do you justify being party to a divide and conquer? Parker gets to be Lorenzo without the blame

How can you take this stand under LOA 93 wages?
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/us_airways
The VAST MAJORITY OF YOUR CAPTAINS MAKE $125/hour (or much less e-190= $101/hour)

You've got republic flying e175's for $40k more per year than their mainline counterparts on worse work rules.

So happy when this gets resolved and hope that APA integrates the Nic and you guys all MOVE ON WITH YOUR CAREER AND LIVES.
Sincerely- but no matter- please realize you've lost something that is much more valuable to me- respect. Industry wide.
I've got NO skin in this -other than I resent being undercut so badly wage wise. Just another former legacy pilot, multiple airline industry guy that has truly lost respect for the collective AAA group.

Very well said, Wave.

 

[Dan Roman]

. So, what is only fair is if an AMerican West pilot who was hired in 2002 is placed below the 2001 hired pilot. What is wrong with that?

I doubt I'll be a eloquent as Wave, he nailed it above, but, here's the deal with DOH. It get's trumped by career expectations. Let's take 2 hypothetical airlines. Airline A has a history of making mistake after mistake, poor equipment choices, unwise mergers, whatever, they have terrible labor/management relations due to mistakes on both sides and is finally running out of cash. They have massive furloughs and are looking to be a candidate to join Braniff, Pan Am, TWA, EAL etc in that airline graveyard in the sky. Airline B....doing everything right, is growing, taking care of their employees and enjoying healthy profits and hiring. Maybe labor and management worked together to get them to were they are.
They merge.
Let's say the junior Captains at airline B have the same DOH as a furloughed airline A pilot that doesn't expect to get recalled. You really think straight DOH is fair? If you were at the healthy airline?

 

[waveflyer]

Well said dan

 

[A350]

Don't have a dog in the fight either....anymore, but understand why they did what they did and support them as they were my brothers and I think they got screwed.

If the union got off their ass and had a merger policy that wasn't so up to interpretation and easier to implement....you wouldn't have this problem.

A350

 

[Bringupthebird]

Well said wave. 350 admits that the east allowed pride and overconfidence to consume them and the industry paid the price.

 

[TWA Dude]

You really think straight DOH is fair? If you were at the healthy airline?

While I certainly agree with your sentiment I advise caution when referring to financial health of an airline. One can adequately discuss career expectations without bringing that bogeyman up.

Suffice it to say the USAir pilots in 2005 had zero career expectations and the reason is irrelevant. Even Nicolau didn't dwell on that; he simply stated the Easties had far more to gain from the merger than the West. Facts like these drive liars like St. Nic and his indistinguishable East buddies crazy.

 

[Bringupthebird]

The east was burning through cash at an unsustainable rate. No one would loan them more money. The credit card companies demanded holdbacks that put them perilously close to violating the ATSB loan covenants.

 

[St. Nic]

While I certainly agree with your sentiment I advise caution when referring to financial health of an airline. One can adequately discuss career expectations without bringing that bogeyman up.

Suffice it to say the USAir pilots in 2005 had zero career expectations and the reason is irrelevant. Even Nicolau didn't dwell on that; he simply stated the Easties had far more to gain from the merger than the West. Facts like these drive liars like St. Nic and his indistinguishable East buddies crazy.

Really? Project Zanzibar! Ask Kirby about it

 

[waveflyer]

Don't have a dog in the fight either....anymore, but understand why they did what they did and support them as they were my brothers and I think they got screwed.

If the union got off their ass and had a merger policy that wasn't so up to interpretation and easier to implement....you wouldn't have this problem.

A350

I get that it's subjective
But again you ignore my point-
You seem to be doing it on purpose for someone w/o a dog in the fight

they didn't do anything to change the merger policy until it affected them adversely

Is that understandable to you?

They're doing it on wages where a SWA 6 year FO equals or exceeds their max A-330 captain pay. Where their airbus captains make a LOT less than upstart virgin america Airbus pilots.

I would only understand their actions if a) they'd been proactive before the merger and b) they didn't have such a terrible contract

As it's been I don't see how anyone "understands" it

 

[Bringupthebird]

Really? Project Zanzibar! Ask Kirby about it

I have to hand it to Steven Bradford. He knew the east mentality pretty well and how gullible they were. Easy pickin's!

 

[waveflyer]

Really? Project Zanzibar! Ask Kirby about it

Ok, i'll bite

What's project Zanzibar ?

I've found nothing on a quick google search

 

[St. Nic]

Ok, i'll bite

What's project Zanzibar ?

I've found nothing on a quick google search

Scott Kirby
AWA's bankruptcy plan in 2005
He talked about AWA's poor outlook during a crew news and Zanzibar was their bk plan

The westicles think they worked for Southwest or something and swooped in and saved US legacy. Scott Kirby set the record straight in a crew news.

Awa was on the edge in 2005. A ship taking in water. The senile arbitraitor, bought and paid for by alpa, went along with the story to screw the east. That's how a 17 year pilot ended up next to a new hire.

Usapa was born

 

[TWA Dude]

Really? Project Zanzibar! Ask Kirby about it

Nice non sequitur. Arguing with you is like the proverbial argument on the Internet so I only say this for the benefit of those unfamiliar. Merger arbitrations rely on a PID, policy implementation date, known as the "snapshot" date, so that post-merger changes caused by the actual merger aren't confused with pre-merger career expectations. So Zanzibar or anything else stated by management is irrelevant.

Quote from the Nicolau Award, Page 25:

"[FONT=&quot]The US Airways [/FONT][FONT=&quot]reliance on post-merger statements by America West's CEO, clearly [/FONT][FONT=&quot]made to assuage growing concerns of America West pilots who had [/FONT][FONT=&quot]seen a post-merger end to hiring, an increasing return of long-[/FONT][FONT=&quot]furloughed US Airways pilots and a flattening in their own [/FONT][FONT=&quot]advancement, is misplaced."

[/FONT]

 

[waveflyer]

It wouldn't surprise me that you're into conspiracies
So...
I'm sure you have a valid link to source right?

 

[Bringupthebird]

A phantom rumor of something with an exotic sounding name like Zanzibar(why do you need a name for a BK plan anyhow. Too much Tom Clancy) versus the waterfall of information regarding USAirways impending implosion, which would you believe?

Maybe St.Nic actually thought he heard "Pansy Bar" and wanted to know the where's and whens.

 

[airgator]

Every bankruptcy a large company goes through has a code name. Obviously all the consulting firms and people working on it can't have "Brand XXX bankruptcy" all over their documents. Northwest's was Project Duckling.

 

[vetrider]

Most of that crap comes from crew news sessions where some west pilot thinks he or she is gonna pin Parker or Kirby down with the tough one, only to get a bull******************** answer thrown back in their face.