SWA crew names released

[Dan Roman]

Holy crap. SWA has Captains that think they should be using the tiller for directional control on T/O or landing????? MadJack....NOOOOOO... pilots that use the tiller in the way that you describe are guilty of poor operational procedures. Sorry, there is no other way to put it. You do not even remotely need to use the tiller for directional control unless you have some very unusual mechanical problem. Are you one of the pilots that taxis like Danica Patrick? It might be that you are using the tiller for "high speeds" on a taxiway and that has somehow translated into thinking the tiller is appropriate for take off speeds too. It isn't. This is a classic example of why you taxi at "taxi" speeds and the T/O regime is a whole different deal. All you need for T/O is rudder in any wind condition you are legal to fly in.

 

[ron burgundy]

Wave,

Tiller helps with every take off and you know as well as I do we fly SNA Departures on the HUD...The argument is that the pilots are no better in either seat, just the CP has more tools at his finger tips...could argue that the FOs are BETTER at takeoffs and approaches because "all" they have are flt contols and F/Ds...the company is covering its collective ass with these "CP only" apps and landings....it was always shocking to me that as an FO I could NOT shoot an approach to CAT 1 mins??

Ty,

Pls put me back on your ignore list...respect is earned not given, we all were CPs at our pre-SWA airline or mil unit...get used to the fact that you are a new SWA pilot, and you have a lot to learn about your new company...being a newbie SW FO will be a humbling experience for you, but you will have to do it, because we all did...

FL guys fly the same departure..without a HUD or a tiller (didn't pay extra for it..the tiller), for half the wages. However, SWA has made a profit for 41 yrs...must be doing everthing right. Times don't change and there is absolutely no reason to adapt to the current environment.

 

[ron burgundy]

Yes MADJACK,you are correct in your statement..the tiller does help with every takeoff. It helps you get from the gate to runway centerline. If you need it beyond that point.....WTF?.. and I am sorry.

 

[-9Capt]

Using a tiller for directional control on the runway is the epitome of poor airmanship and outright dangerous. One day he'll learn, he's new in the seat.

 

[Dan Roman]

Sorry to stir this pot further, but.....I really have to wonder..... thinking the t/o is an extension of taxiing the airplane (using the tiller for directional control) sure seems like a problem caused by the whole "we taxi faster than you to get ahead of you warrior spirit" thing.

The goal is to smoothly (read no more than 10 kts around a corner) and safely taxi onto the runway. Then take off. Taxiing like Dario Franchitti sets you up for all kinds of potential problems, this appears to be one of them.

I see a correlation between thinking the tiller should be used at high speeds being the result of thinking that taxiing to the departure runway counts as a qualifying lap for the flight ahead.

 

[waveflyer]

Dan, you should've left it to your first comments- going into your perception of our fast taxiing reduces your credibility. Just SWA hating with that last post my man- pretty standard for you, but still.

That said- are you hearing all that mad jack?
from what im reading, you deserve the piling on from AT that youre getting- not making us look good here- (and I don't give a damn about the integration smack talk- it's the basic flying stuff)
Don't use the tiller for TO and landing and I'm doubling down that a HUD isn't remotely necessary for the Orange County takeoff- I've literally done it a hundred times without one in transport category jets- and have never used the tiller on takeoff or landing until slowed to taxiing speeds-
Have enough good qualified pilots lectured you enough yet?
Maybe that's something so basic it creeped into your instructors habits and never got corrected. In the meantime- a private pilot asked the question on airliners.net and I'm thinking you might need to hear it from a Boeing test pilot
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/318991/

http://www.bluecoat.org/reports/NTSB_96_TowerAir.pdf
http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/recletters/1996/A96_150_164.pdf

And 'Captain only' is still a ridiculous concept at the major airline level. I don't like it at any level as a blanket policy

 

[Ty Webb]

Hey, Wave, that summary of the Tower Air accident was interesting; hadn't seen that before. I thought the recommendation to abort a takeoff on a slippery runway "when half-travel inputs aren't adequate" to be worth remembering.

 

[vixin]

Mad I did the SNA dept when it was briefly allowed at SWA as an FO, without a HUD. I flew it more times then most CA's at SWA prior to working here...every time without a HUD. How did I ever do that. You must be the best of the best. What a joke! Ride that tiller when I'm flying Ill ask your nicely to stop. Don't and the plane will be all yours rock star.

 

[madjack]

If you guys would just read what I said...The tiller is located on the CPs side, it is there for taxiing and yes I use it for some initial directional control on T/O, duh, never on landing, but if I ever find myself heading for the dirt, why wouldn't I use it to assist the rudder to stay on the pavement (an unlikely event calls for exceptional correction) the HUD is on the CPs side, these are tools not available to the FO...I have landed planes on ships day and night, I don't give a rats ass what you guys think of my flying skills, never had an incident in 30 years of flying...pile on if it meets your personal agenda, (hey I was a pissed off FO too, for far longer than anyone on this forum), but get over yourselves, this is easy flying that the weak pilots want to complicate...the frikken 737 flies itself...

 

[madjack]

Wave,

I know what it is like to be an FO at SWA, a "captains" airline that piles on the work for the RHS so the CP can have the "big" picture...from taking out the trash a million times, to dirtying countless shirts on walkarounds (which I still do, and dirty the shirts), to not being involved in meaningful decision making and the "insult" of "CP only" procedures and hey all of a sudden I can't fly a CAT I approach, one time as an FO I had a mech come up and ask where the "pilot" was, I told him he was out getting coffee...well the list goes on and that is why it can suck to be an FO, if you let it get to you, which I did (most handle it more professionally than I did)...as a SWA CP I try to override the systemic LHS vs RHS built into our procedures, but I can't change the company's CYA tendency or Boeings design...the CP gets the low vis stuff because of the HUD...the only justification for a CP only landing I can see is the location of the tiller (in case its quickly needed) and the S/B lever, that and the if the PIC crashes, he gets fired and the case is closed...hell, if you asked my opinion, I would think that the "CP only" landings, should be flown by the FO and monitored by the CP, given that most of the landing accidents, including the recent Newark incident were CP flown approaches...

 

[Wesb737fo]

If you guys would just read what I said...The tiller is located on the CPs side, it is there for taxiing and yes I use it for some initial directional control on T/O, duh, never on landing, but if I ever find myself heading for the dirt, why wouldn't I use it to assist the rudder to stay on the pavement (an unlikely event calls for exceptional correction) the HUD is on the CPs side, these are tools not available to the FO...I have landed planes on ships day and night, I don't give a rats ass what you guys think of my flying skills, never had an incident in 30 years of flying...pile on if it meets your personal agenda, (hey I was a pissed off FO too, for far longer than anyone on this forum), but get over yourselves, this is easy flying that the weak pilots want to complicate...the frikken 737 flies itself...

Maverick Its not your flying it's you're attitude. The enemy is dangerous. You guys are dangerous and foolish ( teeth snap). Now who wants to go to the hotel, shower up and play some shirtless volleyball?

 

[madjack]

Been here almost 13 years, one overrun at MDW and the nose first landing...a go around would have fixed both...if anyone calls for a go around (PM,PF, ATC, the aircraft warning system, a pilot in an aircraft at the holdshort), it's mandatory...end of this story and every bad ending...this has nothing to do with taxi speed, SWA "dangerous attitude", the tiller on T/O and CP only BS procedures....GO AROUND, that is good airmanship...

 

[Quimby]

Wave,

I know what it is like to be an FO at SWA, a "captains" airline that piles on the work for the RHS so the CP can have the "big" picture...from taking out the trash a million times, to dirtying countless shirts on walkarounds (which I still do, and dirty the shirts), to not being involved in meaningful decision making and the "insult" of "CP only" procedures and hey all of a sudden I can't fly a CAT I approach, one time as an FO I had a mech come up and ask where the "pilot" was, I told him he was out getting coffee...well the list goes on and that is why it can suck to be an FO, if you let it get to you, which I did (most handle it more professionally than I did)...as a SWA CP I try to override the systemic LHS vs RHS built into our procedures, but I can't change the company's CYA tendency or Boeings design...the CP gets the low vis stuff because of the HUD...the only justification for a CP only landing I can see is the location of the tiller (in case its quickly needed) and the S/B lever, that and the if the PIC crashes, he gets fired and the case is closed...hell, if you asked my opinion, I would think that the "CP only" landings, should be flown by the FO and monitored by the CP, given that most of the landing accidents, including the recent Newark incident were CP flown approaches...

Newark? You mean LGA?

The location of the tiller has no bearing on a captain only landing. If you "quickly need" to use the tiller on a landing roll, it's just going to put you in the weeds quicker. Many Boeings have tillers on both sides, the fact the SWA has one means they just didn't order them with 2.

If the PIC crashes, the SIC crashes right along with.

 

[Dan Roman]

Been here almost 13 years, one overrun at MDW and the nose first landing...a go around would have fixed both...if anyone calls for a go around (PM,PF, ATC, the aircraft warning system, a pilot in an aircraft at the holdshort), it's mandatory...end of this story and every bad ending...this has nothing to do with taxi speed, SWA "dangerous attitude", the tiller on T/O and CP only BS procedures....GO AROUND, that is good airmanship...

Sounds just like the pilots that think CRM training is stupid, yet always seem to be the ones that need it the most.
Just like a stabilized approach tends to breed a good landing, the opposite is true. Rushing, tends to breed an "unstabilized" approach to a flight.
Taxxing fast lends itself to being in a rush for the T/O and departure and that in turn plants seeds for problems to pop up.
I could definitely see how someone who thinks taxxing for departure is a qualifying lap could let the bad habit of using the tiller for take off creep into their habit pattern. Especially if they have the mindset that "airline flying is too easy, I used to fly from carriers". Yes it's it's easy to do airline flying in an OK manner. It takes extra effort to do it smoothly and consistantly. Things like consistently landing smoothly on the centerline, not being able to feel the airplane come to a complete stop, using good CRM with the multitude of personalities we encounter, etc etc. I've never seen the pilots that others consider really good display a cocky "airline flying is too easy" attitude, rather they always have a level of relaxed confidence and are very conscientious about doing the job well. Yes, it's not brain surgery, but the cocky ones usually are weaker than the good ones. They just don't know it.

 

[Dan Roman]

Dan, you should've left it to your first comments- going into your perception of our fast taxiing reduces your credibility. Just SWA hating with that last post my man- pretty standard for you, but still.

Wave, the only SWA bashing I've done has concerned the well documented arrogance displayed in some of the merger strings. Oh and of course the warrior spirit thing is too easy to pass up on!
I maintain we all live in glass houses, so any attitude of superiority by anyone deserves a good bashing IMHO.
I consider SWA is just as good an airline as DAL, HAL or anyone else, but the reality is, we all are lucky enough to fly airplanes for a living (assuming we enjoy it) but letting the airline you fly for define you and using it as any kind of measuring stick in your life is pretty silly.