SWA delaying new planes, adding used Westjet birds --article

[General Lee]

You don't own the captain seats nor the airplanes AT brings to the table. If you want to talk about business transactions. Just saying!

Sorry, in arbitration they would! (all 3 sides agree to it---management, and both pilot groups) The arbitrators decide where people will sit. No wonder it was avoided...


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[madjack]

Then they should have gone to Arbie

 

[PCL_128]

Obviously you expected to get everything.

No, I just expected to keep what I already had. You weren't happy until you stole everything that we had.

 

[PCL_128]

Even with arbitration, that may have been tough to get. You probably would have had your current seat, and since you were a smaller airline you might have gotten a little less seniority.

Possibly, but it wouldn't be because we were a smaller airline, it would have been because SWA had a higher rate of retirements in the next few years. It is likely than an arbitration panel would have given them credit for that, but we're talking a few percent at most, not the 15% that I lost, or the 32% that most of our captains lost.

Base wise, a purchasing company can do whatever they want with that (ie CVG shrunk, along with MEM).

Oh, don't misunderstand, General. I'm not saying that they should have been forced to keep a base at all, let alone a base of a certain size. But what's hard to accept is that they are keeping a base, but very few of the pilots who actually brought that base to the merger are going to be able to hold it. We're probably looking at a base of about 400-500 pilots in Atlanta when it's all said and done. Half of those are captain positions that none of our pilots will be able to hold, so the other half will only be able to be held by former AirTran captains (now mid-seniority and senior FOs) and "real" SWA pilots. AirTran FOs will be waiting many years to get back to Atlanta. For me, it's almost a decade.

 

[redflyer65]

No, I just expected to keep what I already had. You weren't happy until you stole everything that we had.

And that would be operating as a subsidary. Welcome to Agreement 2. Same seat, same base, same QOL, same pay. The MEC blew it.

 

[PCL_128]

And that would be operating as a subsidary. Welcome to Agreement 2. Same seat, same base, same QOL, same pay. The MEC blew it.

red, you can keep pretending that the only options were ever going to be AIP1 or AIP2 (or nothing), but those of us with a brain (and a spine) know that going to arbitration was a viable option.

 

[redflyer65]

Pretending? No. You could have tried to go to arbitration. Gary could have just run you as a stand alone for as long as SWAPA would have allowed it. It's anybodies guess if he would have pulled that card.

So arbitration was down the road after a few more hurdles, but it didn't workout that way and I think you wouldn't have been happy with the results if it had gone that far. (We'll never really know at this point)

 

[GoodTimes]

Possibly, but it wouldn't be because we were a smaller airline, it would have been because SWA had a higher rate of retirements in the next few years. It is likely than an arbitration panel would have given them credit for that, but we're talking a few percent at most, not the 15% that I lost, or the 32% that most of our captains lost.



Oh, don't misunderstand, General. I'm not saying that they should have been forced to keep a base at all, let alone a base of a certain size. But what's hard to accept is that they are keeping a base, but very few of the pilots who actually brought that base to the merger are going to be able to hold it. We're probably looking at a base of about 400-500 pilots in Atlanta when it's all said and done. Half of those are captain positions that none of our pilots will be able to hold, so the other half will only be able to be held by former AirTran captains (now mid-seniority and senior FOs) and "real" SWA pilots. AirTran FOs will be waiting many years to get back to Atlanta. For me, it's almost a decade.

Let's revisit SIA 1.....

Captain retention slots for 10 years

I could be wrong, but wasn't there a fence around ATL?

 

[JT12345]

Pretending? No. You could have tried to go to arbitration. Gary could have just run you as a stand alone for as long as SWAPA would have allowed it. It's anybodies guess if he would have pulled that card.

It was not a guess. It was a process agreement. Then he changed his mind after the first vote did not go his way. So he made an agreement then broke it. I was shocked, but some were not as surprised as I was. They did not think this stuff in writing meant anything and believed the rumors more. If only there was no process agreement in writing and the rumors going around were in writing. Turned out the stuff on paper meant nothing and the rumors meant everything.

What is done is done. No sense in talking about it in the workplace. No good can come from it. Stressing about it will just make you lose your medical quicker or kill ya quicker in the end.


http://swamedia.com/releases/e92ed2d6-ca48-da7f-caa0-6b004da76053

Southwest Airlines Pilots, AirTran Pilots, and Carriers Reach Four-Party Agreement
Pact Provides for Implementation Schedule
Earlier today, the respective Unions representing Southwest Airlines (NYSE: LUV) and AirTran Airways Pilots, as well as both Companies signed a Four-Party Process Agreement that provides for the two pilot groups to begin their seniority integration discussions prior to legal closing of the AirTran acquisition. It also outlines provisions of an implementation schedule in the event an agreement is reached on an integrated seniority list (ISL). Southwest anticipates closing on its acquisition of AirTran Airways in second quarter of 2011.

"This is yet another important step in the overall process of bringing these two great carriers together," said Mike Van de Ven, Southwest Airlines Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer. "I applaud both sides for signing this important agreement that lays the groundwork for bringing together these two hard working Pilot groups."

The Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association (SWAPA) and the Air Line Pilots' Association (ALPA) can now begin the work of integrating seniority lists in accordance with the McCaskill-Bond Act. This new Four-Party Process Agreement also creates a timeline for SWAPA and ALPA to reach an ISL agreement. If an agreement is not reached during this timeframe, the matter will be sent to arbitration and a new implementation process will have to be negotiated.

After nearly 40 years of service, Southwest Airlines continues to differentiate itself from other low fare carriers--offering a reliable product with exemplary Customer Service. Southwest Airlines is the nation's largest carrier in terms of originating domestic passengers boarded, now serving 72 cities in 37 states. Southwest also is one of the most honored airlines in the world known for its commitment to the triple bottom line of Performance, People, and Planet. To read more about how Southwest is doing its part to be a good citizen, visit southwest.com/cares to read the Southwest Airlines One Report(TM). Based in Dallas, Southwest currently operates more than 3,400 flights a day and has nearly 35,000 Employees systemwide.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines

An entity called Guadeloupe Holdings was formed by Southwest and currently acts as a wholly owned subsidiary of Southwest Airlines and holding company for AirTran's current operations and assets. Southwest's organized labor groups have ceded contractual "scope" provisions pending acceptable negotiated seniority integration agreements. Operations of the two airlines will remain isolated until terms of this integration are fully negotiated (or arbitrated). Bound by federal law, such as McCaskill-Bond legislation, as well as a four-party process agreement, Southwest has confirmed that it will integrate all of the pilots in a fair and equitable manner.[6]

Now wiki can be edited.

 

[General Lee]

Let's revisit SIA 1.....

Captain retention slots for 10 years

I could be wrong, but wasn't there a fence around ATL?

Was the airline going to keep ATL the same size? What if they shrunk it down to bare bones? (like now) Would those CAPT slots have been protected to go elsewhere had the flying been brought down? That would have been nice. MEM was brought down, but those senior guys took their seniority over to ATL on the MD88 and 320.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[canyonblue]

No, I just expected to keep what I already had. You weren't happy until you stole everything that we had.

Welcome to the United States Geronimo. I know you didn't go to College, but did you even go to High School?

 

[General Lee]

Welcome to the United States Geronimo. I know you didn't go to College, but did you even go to High School?

Get off this board and attend to your FAMILY! They might be crying just thinking about you leaving for a couple days...... They forgot that you are a pilot, and a lot of pilots leave home for a few days and then RETURN.....remember to tell them what you do for a living...


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[canyonblue]

....not the 15% that I lost, or the 32% that most of our captains lost.

Still using "relative seniority" as a measuring stick? What about the close to 1000 of our pilots who were at Southwest before ValueJet even existed? Relative seniority would never ever ever of happened. Two completely different airlines in every possible way. Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.

 

[canyonblue]

... They forgot that you are a pilot...


Bye Bye---General Lee

At least one of us is a pilot. How much do you make again for getting FI hits? Just STFU and start a Deldo thread. Oh yeah, nobody reads those. TOOL.

 

[canyonblue]

Posts: 17,623


Nice life, get one. That is so pathetic.

 

[General Lee]

At least one of us is a pilot. How much do you make again for getting FI hits? Just STFU and start a Deldo thread. Oh yeah, nobody reads those. TOOL.

Wow, don't get so emotional......oops, nevermind...


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWA Bubba]

Was the airline going to keep ATL the same size? What if they shrunk it down to bare bones? (like now) Would those CAPT slots have been protected to go elsewhere had the flying been brought down? That would have been nice. MEM was brought down, but those senior guys took their seniority over to ATL on the MD88 and 320.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Actually, General, the "loss of captain seats" isn't as dire as you make it. The overall seniority list is what determines who is a captain and who isn't, after Jan '15. That means those AirTran captains who are holding out at AirTran until the last possible moment will come over shortly before that date, and if they're senior enough to be one, the will "re-upgrade" almost immediately. In fact, it will be nothing BUT former AirTran guys upgrading for quite a while after that date. There are some very senior FAT captains who already came over, and are quite happy being super-senior FOs for now, with Southwest captain seats waiting for them just 18 months from now. And, like I mentioned, the ones holding out (like Ty Webb and others) are still captains now (AirTran ones, at AirTran CBA rates), and will only be over here for a few months before they can re-upgrade (assuming they're senior enough to do so).

In MY OPINION, what should have been done, was make the overall seniority list with whatever DOH adjustment was deemed "fair" (like the average 2.5 years on the accepted list), and when an AirTran guy transitioned, he would be a captain if his seniority could hold it, and an FO otherwise. (Rather than wait several months to 1.5 years first, depending on when he came over.) And I'd also pay-protect anyone who has a new payrate lower than his old one. That doesn't really affect many guys (if any), and being an FO for some months before regaining one's captain seat isn't THAT far from what I described as fair above.

If you're REALLY arguing that they should have kept their captain seats forever, just because (and it seems that IS what you're arguing), then I disagree that it's fair. Nobody on this board has ever given me an answer to why they think that six years' AirTran service is more deserving of a Southwest captain seat, than ten years' of Southwest service is. Do you have one a justification for that, General? In MY OPINION, that wouldn't have been fair to orig Southwest senior FOs who couldn't upgrade.

If a FAT junior captain is now a senior Southwest FO, making the same money, and has better seniority for bidding, base, vacations, etc., then what's the harm? I mean, the guys who bitch say it's not about the money, but downgraded junior FAT captains actually have BETTER QOL as senior Southwest FOs, assuming they make the same money. And eventually, they can trade in that QOL for a 50% payraise when they have the opportunity to upgrade to Southwest captain. Just like anybody else. Some guys stay senior FOs for QOL, and some chase the captain seat.

And to actually answer the question you posed in your post, General, YES. In the first package (the one vetoed by AirTran's MEC), every AirTran captain was given a "captain retention slot" by name. He would be a Southwest captain no matter what base he went to. Forever. (junior base if he was junior, and more senior bases as he could hold it). The only way for him to lose his captain seat was in the even of an overall reduction of captains companywide (or for him to leave the company, or to voluntarily downgrade). Their junior former AirTran captains would probably be on Southwest Captain reserve for years, due to them being junior to many of our FOs, who, when they upgraded, would start off as captains senior to them. They bitched about that, but the only way to change that (since it took less time to upgrade at AirTran than Southwest) would be to give them captain seats, and THEN give them a large INCREASE in seniority over what they had at AirTran. Does that sound fair to you?

Anyway, I'm not saying that these guys don't have anything to bitch about (mainly the change in their careers from the 717s going away, and they way they're being transitioned), but the deal they got (and the one they turned down) is not as bad as you're making it. I don't know if you honestly don't know this, or you're just doing this for SWA-bashing sport. But, there's some facts for you.

Bubba

 

[PCL_128]

Pretending? No. You could have tried to go to arbitration. Gary could have just run you as a stand alone for as long as SWAPA would have allowed it. It's anybodies guess if he would have pulled that card.

He wouldn't, because it would have been illegal. He sure fooled a lot of people, though.

So arbitration was down the road after a few more hurdles, but it didn't workout that way and I think you wouldn't have been happy with the results if it had gone that far. (We'll never really know at this point)

The beauty of arbitration is that even if you don't personally agree with the result, it's a lot easier to accept when a neutral third party looks at the facts presented by both sides and comes to a decision, rather than a CEO holding a gun to your head and telling you to sign on the dotted line or else. So, even though I think the AirTran pilots (myself included) would have been happy with an arbitrated result, even if we weren't, it still would be a lot easier to accept and move on.

 

[PCL_128]

Let's revisit SIA 1.....

Captain retention slots for 10 years

I could be wrong, but wasn't there a fence around ATL?

Sorry, but stapling almost every FO and an average loss of seniority of over 20% with a peak of 32% for most captains was not acceptable, even if those retention slots and that fence were iron-clad (which they weren't).

 

[redflyer65]

Bubba,

Great post. Especially paragraph two. The focus should have been on the combined list, not the CA seat. If you seniority could hold it...then fine.

PCL,

Enlighten me why Gary couldn't have run Airtran seperately. I can name almost a dozen airlines that are either run that way now, or within the past 5 years. Are they breaking the law?