SWA delaying new planes, adding used Westjet birds --article

[scoreboardII]

Do you guys like un-commutable schedules? Is that something SWAPA wanted or is it a management thing. Do most of SWAPA guys live in base?

If you consider the non hub operation, its just a fact of life. With hubs, everyone flows in, and then the last wave of flights all depart to outstations at about the same time. With pt to pt service, the last flight to XYZ may be at 2PM.

It's not a prime scheduling demand by the pilots, even though 50 percent commute. It's already assumed you lose the day before to an AM or day after on a PM.

Lets put it this way, to get more commutables, we would have to give something for it, like a plane change, so last crew out can take it, and then you can make a commute. I'm not in favor of any more plane changes.

 

[PCL_128]

Listen Tool, I'll try and make this as simple as possible. You have stated over and over again that SWA is legally obligated to follow any language changes added to a document after an offer to purchase was made. You are completely WRONG! The ONLY language a purchasing entity is BOUND to (a word you are so fond of using incorrectly) is that which was present during the original offer to purchase. That is the only language that cannot be walked away from without legal recourse. The letter you posted showed exactly that. SWA said we have reviewed the language changes made and will agree to abide by the new language unless and until you alter it again. Get it yet? You simply are not allowed to significantly alter the product including things such as: assets, cash reserves, LABOR CONTRACTS etc. and bind the purchaser to the agreement. Have I made it simple enough for your twelfth grade education to comprehend?

Do they let you out of the house by yourself? Without a helmet? Scary.

It's really simple: abide by the new contract language, or no merger. I just wish they would have picked the latter instead.

 

[PCL_128]

In his world, Airtran should have gotten close to DOH

DOH? That was probably a worst case scenario in arbitration. Something between DOH and relative is more likely, leaning to the relative end of the spectrum. Which is why Chase was scared sh!tless of arbitration.

 

[Beechdriver32]

So, PCL, you believed that a relative seniority integration was your worst case scenario? And you actually convinced your fellow pilots that they deserved and should expect that?

I remember my buddy, an AT Capt, said that his union guaranteed that they were assured the SLI would fall between two "goalposts". DOH and relative. And that nothing less would be acceptable, because it was "guaranteed" in arbitration. I assume you helped form that belief.

I am simply baffled by your level of arrogance and incompetence. You continue to set unrealistic expectations and are upset when they don't come to reality.

Simply amazing. And worst is you have no real idea the actual harm you have done to your fellow pilots.

My friend could have SWA captain pay starting April 1, flying a 717. With a capt retention slot. And a 10 year fence around ATL. Never have to fly a FO seat again. And sir, you convinced him that it was not enough.

Amazing.

 

[scoreboardII]

Bam!

added for five

 

[PCL_128]

So, PCL, you believed that a relative seniority integration was your worst case scenario?

No, I said that DOH was likely our worst case scenario. Relative was likely best case scenario. Read for comprehension next time.

And you actually convinced your fellow pilots that they deserved and should expect that?

Obviously not, based upon the vote.

 

[Beechdriver32]

Ok, got me. It was late, and I mis-wrote. DOH with seat protection was the worst case according to my bud. You sure up some amazing expectations for your buddies.

Also, you claim that the 'vote' proved that your fellow pilots were not along your school of thought. But your pilots were not even given the opportunity to vote on the first offer. Figure loss of captain seat, your current pay, and reupgrade who knows when vs current SWA pay for every AT pilot. That's upwards half a million for my bud, and current SWA pay for every FO, even those on your side of the partition.

You and ALPA by proxy, cost your pilots a lot of money yet you don't seem to see that. Or worse, don't care.

Scary.

 

[maxblast72]

Also, you claim that the 'vote' proved that your fellow pilots were not along your school of thought. But your pilots were not even given the opportunity to vote on the first offer. Figure loss of captain seat, your current pay, and reupgrade who knows when vs current SWA pay for every AT pilot. That's upwards half a million for my bud, and current SWA pay for every FO, even those on your side of the partition.

You and ALPA by proxy, cost your pilots a lot of money yet you don't seem to see that. Or worse, don't care.

Oh, PCL128 luvs it. He gets pulled off a trip this month or next, gets ALPA to pay for a trip to NYC, and gets to hang out with lawyers for a few days and talk about his actions in the summer of 2011. He never did like flying

 

[canyonblue]

No, I said that DOH was likely our worst case scenario. Relative was likely best case scenario.

You never even came close to your "worst case scenario", did you fill out your AirTran application with a crayon?

 

[DonVerita]

If the average AirTran line pays 80 hours (I'm guessing here), and the average Southwest line pays 100 TFP (I'm NOT guessing here), then APC's computed "hourly" comparison doesn't mean jack squat.

Bubba

Just for the sake of argument, assuming your 80/100 comparison is correct, the next question to ask is -- how much work did the SWA pilot have to put in to achieve the 100 TFP and how much work did the AirTran pilot have to put in for the 80 BLOCK? If I have to fly say 3 legs average per day to achieve X while you have to fly 5 legs average per day to achieve Y, then even though you might at the end of the month come out with a higher credit hour number, you had to work a lot harder for it. We both have trip and duty rigs, so when it comes down to it, TFP converted to hourly BLOCK rate is the only concrete comparison. Everything else is subjective and may work as an added benefit depending on various factors.

 

[Tripower455]

Just for the sake of argument, assuming your 80/100 comparison is correct, the next question to ask is -- how much work did the SWA pilot have to put in to achieve the 100 TFP and how much work did the AirTran pilot have to put in for the 80 BLOCK? If I have to fly say 3 legs average per day to achieve X while you have to fly 5 legs average per day to achieve Y, then even though you might at the end of the month come out with a higher credit hour number, you had to work a lot harder for it. We both have trip and duty rigs, so when it comes down to it, TFP converted to hourly BLOCK rate is the only concrete comparison. Everything else is subjective and may work as an added benefit depending on various factors.

A quick scan of the July PM MCO lines paying 99-100 tfp shows a range of 77-86 block hours (most are around 85 hours with 17-18 days off). The lowest paying lines are 89+ TFP, 73 hours block (not too many of them) and a bunch pay 105/106 doing 84-90 hours of block and 16 days off.

FWIW, I never even look at block hours on the bid lines, since it doesn't really matter, since between TTGA and ELITT, I rarely fly my awarded line. Total pay per day and late report time is what I look for. FWIW, the best paying trips tend to have the least number of legs.

How does that compare with AT?

 

[waveflyer]

No, I said that DOH was likely our worst case scenario. Relative was likely best case scenario.

At least you stand by your crazy.

Do you give ANY credence at all to SWA being a higher paying job, with better stability, benefits, more bases & better work environment? You know, the actual factors pilots base their career decisions on.
Any thought that for many years, (5+), pilots left every legacy for southwest?

The quote above is the source of the AT angst. I've been proud and a good pilot at every stop- this isnt a slam on AT- I hope we keep learning from you- but what on earth job-wise would make you think DOH was your WORST CASE scenario, when over a hundred used air tran as a stepping stone to get here?

 

[ATLplt]

...but what on earth job-wise would make you think DOH was your WORST CASE scenario, when over a hundred used air tran as a stepping stone to get here?

Dude, that's the type of stuff you really can't verify . Maybe they lived in a Southwest base and were tired of commuting to the ghetto. Maybe they thought flying a classic would be cool. Maybe they didn't like the idea of upgrading to Captain in under three years. Maybe their squadron mates were already there and didn't like how the AirTran guys wouldn't call them "Ace" or "Boomer". A lot of us came here because we wanted to and figured making it a career. I know that's hard for you guys to comprehend, but it's the case for many of us.

 

[Tripower455]

Dude, that's the type of stuff you really can't verify . Maybe they lived in a Southwest base and were tired of commuting to the ghetto. Maybe they thought flying a classic would be cool. Maybe they didn't like the idea of upgrading to Captain in under three years. Maybe their squadron mates were already there and didn't like how the AirTran guys wouldn't call them "Ace" or "Boomer". A lot of us came here because we wanted to and figured making it a career. I know that's hard for you guys to comprehend, but it's the case for many of us.

That may be true, but how many left SW to go to AT? Many did the opposite.

You're not seriously gonna argue that a career at AT was in any measurable way equal or better than a career at SW?

 

[redflyer65]

Dude, that's the type of stuff you really can't verify . Maybe they lived in a Southwest base and were tired of commuting to the ghetto. Maybe they thought flying a classic would be cool. Maybe they didn't like the idea of upgrading to Captain in under three years. Maybe their squadron mates were already there and didn't like how the AirTran guys wouldn't call them "Ace" or "Boomer". A lot of us came here because we wanted to and figured making it a career. I know that's hard for you guys to comprehend, but it's the case for many of us.

All valid points. I know many that had no other choice but AirTran, so it goes both ways to some extent. Let's not go down this road.

 

[ATLplt]

You're not seriously gonna argue that a career at AT was in any measurable way equal or better than a career at SW?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, my friend. To some, they believed it was at least equal. To those living in and around Atlanta, or folks who made Captain quickly, I'd say they viewed moving to Southwest as a lateral (if not backwards) move. It's all about perspective. Now, a 1-3 year FO on reserve? Southwest would definitely be a step up in pay, certain work rules as well. There's the bulk of your AT to SWA transfers. Add in the things I (jokingly) listed and I could see why some would want to leave.

I know a lot of your contemporaries like to bring up the pay all the time, but I'd keep my current contract (and the lower rates that go with it) any day over yours...IF...I could keep the quality of life I'm currently afforded. That's not gonna happen though.

All valid points. I know many that had no other choice but AirTran, so it goes both ways to some extent. Let's not go down this road.

Down what road? You're right. There are those folks. They got lucky and wanted to make this place home. I'm certainly not debating Southwest is not a great company. There's just a lot of sourness in many of our mouths over how the entire process has transpired...SWA folks included, and I can see their side as well.

I think you guys are getting a lot of attitude though because the AT guys and gals are tired of the superiority complex. You could argue points back and forth for years, (some will certainly try) , but in the end we're going to live with it...or go yank gear for the General. I think you'll see quite a few more people leave than expected for the new American, United, and Delta. Might even see a few for Spirit. That's a big roll of the dice, but if you lived in South Florida, wanted the left seat, and believed in the company then that would make sense. (See? That's a step UP in their eyes.) Many pilots at both companies are contemplating their futures after this mess. Now, could you imagine the chaos (and mass exodus) if we merged with someone like Alaska?

 

[PCL_128]

Do you give ANY credence at all to SWA being a higher paying job, with better stability, benefits, more bases & better work environment? You know, the actual factors pilots base their career decisions on.
Any thought that for many years, (5+), pilots left every legacy for southwest?

Not really. All of those things can change to the polar opposite in a few short years, while seniority is permanent. There's a reason that arbitrators don't pay much attention to those things. And that's the reason that you were so afraid of arbitration.

 

[PCL_128]

He never did like flying

Nah, flying's great. Just as long as it's no more than about 25 hours a month.

 

[waveflyer]

Not really. All of those things can change to the polar opposite in a few short years, while seniority is permanent. There's a reason that arbitrators don't pay much attention to those things. And that's the reason that you were so afraid of arbitration.

Arbitrators don't?. Then why do arbitrators give credence to widebodies?

Widebodies are an airplane that makes more money, allowing their pilots to make more. We have a network system that makes more money, allowing our pilots to make more. I was definitely unafraid of arbitration. And you're living in a dream world thinking any arbitration would have placed you above your date of higher.

But it's convenient for you to hold that thought.

What I'm afraid of, and you guys prove me right here on this board, is integrating 1800 pilots who don't want to be here and screw up the culture of this place, and how fun it is to work here 90% of the time. You don't believe in it with your self-fulfilled prophecy. Why the hell should I be happy with a bunch of ungrateful whiny b/tches showing up- half of whom placed over me-
Esp after we sold 2/3 of your airplanes.

 

[waveflyer]

Nah, flying's great. Just as long as it's no more than about 25 hours a month.

Dude, you're fully in the something for nothing, shortcut crowd aren't you?.

Some of us want to be airline pilots, you're a b/tch-titted troll who has done everything he can to do ALPA's bidding and derail this transition.

#norespect