SWA delaying new planes, adding used Westjet birds --article

[PCL_128]

PCL,

Enlighten me why Gary couldn't have run Airtran seperately. I can name almost a dozen airlines that are either run that way now, or within the past 5 years. Are they breaking the law?

We've been over this before, red:

1. The AirTran CBA didn't allow it for more than 18 months

2. McCaskill-Bond didn't allow it after SWA filed with the SEC saying that their intent was to merge the carriers

3. They signed a Process Agreement saying that they would merge the carriers

4. Mike VdV signed a letter binding SWA to our scope language

 

[redflyer65]

I agree with every one of your points PCL.

And everyone of them could have been EASILY maneuvered, if he elected to do so.

 

[PCL_128]

I agree with every one of your points PCL.

And everyone of them could have been EASILY maneuvered, if he elected to do so.

Not really, but if it makes you feel better to think so, then go right ahead. I would say, though, that if you actually believe such nonsense, then having a CBA in the first place is pointless, and you might as well advocate for removing SWAPA as your collective bargaining agent and going it non-union to save yourself 1%. After all, if everything is really so easily "maneuvered," then having a union and a contract is useless.

 

[canyonblue]

The beauty of arbitration is that even if you don't personally agree with the result, it's a lot easier to accept when a neutral third party looks at the facts presented by both sides and comes to a decision, rather than a CEO holding a gun to your head and telling you to sign on the dotted line or else.

From one of our SWA Dispatchers:

Last week an arbitrator issued his ruling on the Southwest-AirTran dispatcher seniority list integration (SLI) case. He sided with our union and awarded us four extra years of seniority when we merge our seniority lists. This decision has implications for most dispatchers at each company, some good and some bad. For those who are interested, here are some details.

Background

The SWA dispatcher seniority list, counting all specialty positions and managers, has about 200 people, compared to about 45 for AirTran. Ideally, the two unions would negotiate an SLI agreement instead of going to arbitration. The SWA and AirTran pilots already did so successfully. If I understand correctly (I wasn?t involved), since both unions are under the Transportation Workers Union (TWU) umbrella, the AirTran union thought the only acceptable way to integrate the seniority lists per TWU bylaws was by date-of-hire into the dispatch office. In other words, if you were hired at AirTran before I was hired at Southwest, you?re senior to me. Our union countered that the AirTran dispatchers would be getting a much better contract (higher pay, better benefits, etc.) and more opportunity at a larger company, and the SWA folks should get something from the merger as well. Otherwise, it would be a huge windfall for AirTran with zero direct benefit to SWA. We tried to negotiate, but the AirTran union immediately filed for binding arbitration, thinking they had a strong case based on TWU documentation. Thus the decision fell to the arbitrator. At the hearing in February, AirTran proposed date-of-hire, and SWA proposed adding four years to all SWA dispatchers? seniority. He decided the latter was the fairer outcome.

So, even though I think the AirTran pilots (myself included) would have been happy with an arbitrated result, even if we weren't, it still would be a lot easier to accept and move on.

Believe me, if this had gone to arbitration, it wouldn't be the 2-3 year drop you currently have. Most SWA pilots were expecting more, and based on the Dispatcher's and Mechanic's awards, some obviously wish it had gone that way. And even if it had gone to arbitration, you would still be bitching like you do now, guaranteed.

 

[redflyer65]

Airtran could have been wound down within your 18 month timeline per your CBA. Let's even say they miss that 18 month mark and go to 24. What are you going to do? Sue Southwest for missing their mark by 6 months?

B-M has never really been challenged. There's probably better than a 50% chance that SW would win an arguement to be able to run their business as they see fit. After getting a court date in maybe 18 months. Airtran could have possibly already be gone. Are they going to force Gary to run a company that he doesn't want to run? Good luck with that.

I guess ALPA could sue over a process agreement. Again, the company would already be gone.

Your 4th point is tied to the first. Your scope...see above.

So hypothetically.....Airtran would be gone and IF (that's a big IF) they won some part of their lawsuits, what would they have won. Some small monetary judgement after 4 years of litigation?


I don't think Gary wanted to do any of the above, and that's why he was so intent in getting a negotiated deal. Does he look bad 'some' AAI employees now? Sure.

If he had completely gutted the company and jetison every employee, would he have looked even worse? Absolutely. He didn't want to go that far.

 

[PCL_128]

Airtran could have been wound down within your 18 month timeline per your CBA. Let's even say they miss that 18 month mark and go to 24. What are you going to do? Sue Southwest for missing their mark by 6 months?

B-M has never really been challenged. There's probably better than a 50% chance that SW would win an arguement to be able to run their business as they see fit. After getting a court date in maybe 18 months. Airtran could have possibly already be gone. Are they going to force Gary to run a company that he doesn't want to run? Good luck with that.

I guess ALPA could sue over a process agreement. Again, the company would already be gone.

Your 4th point is tied to the first. Your scope...see above.

So hypothetically.....Airtran would be gone and IF (that's a big IF) they won some part of their lawsuits, what would they have won. Some small monetary judgement after 4 years of litigation?


I don't think Gary wanted to do any of the above, and that's why he was so intent in getting a negotiated deal. Does he look bad 'some' AAI employees now? Sure.

If he had completely gutted the company and jetison every employee, would he have looked even worse? Absolutely. He didn't want to go that far.

An emergency injunction would have prevented what you suggest, and would have been easily obtained, since SWA was in no financial troubles that would have justified such actions and made a judge balk at an injunction until it was sorted out legally.

But that's really irrelevant, since Gary never would have tried such illegal nonsense in the first place. Just hollow threats and SWA pilot wet dreams.

 

[DonVerita]

If a FAT junior captain is now a senior Southwest FO, making the same money, and has better seniority for bidding, base, vacations, etc., then what's the harm?
Bubba

Bubba...you are wrong on the money part. Now that some OAT Captains have been at SWA for a few months, the comparison reports are starting to come in; and they aren't what you imply. The money is not the same. These guys are making less as SWA F/O's than they were as ATN CA's.

We need to talk apples vs. apples when discussing these pay rates. APC has taken the weird SWA TFP's and converted them to industry standard BLOCK pay rates. Go over there and take a look at ATN CA 12yr. rate vs. SWA FO 12 yr. rate. The difference is -$17/block hour.

Let's not throw in intangibles like premium pay, cartels, the far right end of the bell curve, or anything of that sort. Just stick with straight line numbers.

 

[madjack]

75 block hour limit...use to be 70...keep it real DV

 

[canyonblue]

We need to talk apples vs. apples when discussing these pay rates.

We need to talk apples vs. apples when discussing airlines too.

 

[HowardBorden]

We've been over this before, red:

1. The AirTran CBA didn't allow it for more than 18 months

Your agreement said no such thing. The document in place at the time of constructive notice said the following:

E. Merger Protection:
1. In the event of a merger between the Company and another Air Carrier, where the surviving air carrier decides to integrate the pre-merger operations, the following procedures will apply:
a) The Company will provide for the integration of the seniority of the two pilot groups in a fair and equitable manner, including, where applicable, agreement through collective bargaining between the Air Carrier and the representative or representatives of the pilot groups involved.

You can argue 'till the cows come home that a new contract signed after the date of constructive notice would ultimately be enforceable, but the case law is simply not on your side. SWA agreed to purchase an entity that would remain substantially unchanged from the date of constructive notice through corporate closing. Small insignificant changes aren't an issue but completely changing your scope clause and adding additional hurdles to an acquiring carrier are simply not allowed. Adding an 18 month window to facilitate the totality of an acquisition scenario is laughable when no such requirement existed at the date of constructive notice. ALPA knew that their contract at the date of constructive notice was woefully inadequate at protecting their interests in the event of an acquisition and scrambled to get better protective language in the document after they learned of an impending acquisition. Unfortunately for ALPA they couldn't fix the language prior to an acquisition scenario being revealed. Legally you are stuck with the exact language that was contained in the document when SWA made the offer to purchase.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba...you are wrong on the money part. Now that some OAT Captains have been at SWA for a few months, the comparison reports are starting to come in; and they aren't what you imply. The money is not the same. These guys are making less as SWA F/O's than they were as ATN CA's.

We need to talk apples vs. apples when discussing these pay rates. APC has taken the weird SWA TFP's and converted them to industry standard BLOCK pay rates. Go over there and take a look at ATN CA 12yr. rate vs. SWA FO 12 yr. rate. The difference is -$17/block hour.

Let's not throw in intangibles like premium pay, cartels, the far right end of the bell curve, or anything of that sort. Just stick with straight line numbers.

Straight line numbers that you advocate is NOT an "apples to apples" comparison of what actually happens on each company's payday. In fact, I'm sure you know that there's no actual way on earth to make such a comparison between two dissimilar companies. Regardless, you can't make your "apples to apples" comparison simply the way you did it either. Since there's so much difference between all the other things that make up one's pay besides the rate. Especially since Southwest doesn't get paid by the hour. You can't even simply apply a "fix" to out TFP rate to get an hourly rate, like APC tries to. Since a TFP is based on mileage, and then adjusted for time and other factors, legs blocking the exact same time can pay somewhat different if you're going east or west. Plus the differences in scheduling and rigs also make direct pay comparisons invalid.

A better way to compare pay would be to look at the guaranteed minimums per month times payrate. Also look at practical, or typical, average lines times payrate, and then possibly a nuanced look at how easy it is to get overtime and/or premium overtime.

Madjack says you guys have a 75 hr/month limit. I don't know whether that's true or not, but I can tell you that the average line here pays 95-100 TFP for an average 14 days of work/month. That's before any adjustments, trades, pickups, giveaways, etc. That's basically a guy who works his line, and does nothing else. If you're a senior FO, you can get much better deals than that. If you're on reserve, the minimum guarantee is 90, and occasionally 96. So realistically, the average Southwest guy can multiply his TFP rate times 100 to get his minimum average monthly pay.

At any rate, as I said, a direct APC comparison of "computed hourly rates" isn't a fair comparison of actual pay. DV, how about you try comparing the monthly gross pay of: 1) each company's high earners; 2) each company's slack-ass, lazy, don't-like-to-work pukes; and finally 3) each company's average line pogue. I think you'd find a much more valid comparison.

Bubba

 

[Tripower455]

Bubba...you are wrong on the money part. Now that some OAT Captains have been at SWA for a few months, the comparison reports are starting to come in; and they aren't what you imply. The money is not the same. These guys are making less as SWA F/O's than they were as ATN CA's.

Are they working the same number of days per month?

I'm flying with a FAT Capt (senior MCO FO) next trip (great guy, btw), and will grill him about this again. Last time I flew with him, I asked him about the pay disparity, and he said he was making a little less over here, but he is also working less days and doesn't play the OT or premium game at all. He flies his line and maybe ELITTs up a little. At his level of seniority in MCO, he'd make a killing in premium if he wanted to, making even more for less days worked. He is happy as a pig in mud, btw. All of the other FAT Capts I've discussed this with said they are making more over here than they ever did over there.

We need to talk apples vs. apples when discussing these pay rates. APC has taken the weird SWA TFP's and converted them to industry standard BLOCK pay rates. Go over there and take a look at ATN CA 12yr. rate vs. SWA FO 12 yr. rate. The difference is -$17/block hour.

We definitely need to compare apples with apples. How much does each make at the end of a typical work day/month. That's the barometer we should be using. If I make $1000 per hour, and work one hour in the month, am I earning more than I do working 85 hours at $216 per?

The APC chart only show min guarantee. The only time I've ever seen min guarantee on the bid lines is in Jan or Feb, and it's not been close to every year. IIRC, it's happened less than half a dozen times.

Let's not throw in intangibles like premium pay, cartels, the far right end of the bell curve, or anything of that sort. Just stick with straight line numbers.

Agree, but you do have to account for the difference in productivity per day and the ability to make a lot more with little effort.

A senior FO at SW (which most of the FAT guys over currently here are) can easily exceed what he was making over there as a Capt.

I have flown with a few hard charging FOs over the years that made damn near what I make as a 17 year Capt. A few made more than I typically do flying my line plus a little.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba...you are wrong on the money part. Now that some OAT Captains have been at SWA for a few months, the comparison reports are starting to come in; and they aren't what you imply. The money is not the same. These guys are making less as SWA F/O's than they were as ATN CA's.

We need to talk apples vs. apples when discussing these pay rates. APC has taken the weird SWA TFP's and converted them to industry standard BLOCK pay rates. Go over there and take a look at ATN CA 12yr. rate vs. SWA FO 12 yr. rate. The difference is -$17/block hour.

Let's not throw in intangibles like premium pay, cartels, the far right end of the bell curve, or anything of that sort. Just stick with straight line numbers.

As far as your FAT former captains' current pay, your mileage (and theirs) may vary. It all depends on your seniority, just as it does for every aspect of every other airline pilot. Of the two FAT captains (now Southwest FOs) that I've flown with, one said he makes about the same, and the other said he makes more now as a Southwest senior FO. At the time, he was the number one FO in Las Vegas, so he came over from being a pretty senior AirTran guy (in fact, he's above me on the combined seniority list). He got his first choice in lines, he got to fly whatever days he wanted and whatever days off he wanted; basically he got his first choice of everything (including overtime). He said he made about 5% more money now than he did at the Tran (tweaked his line, but didn't fly more than 15 days per month), and was looking forward to a 50% payraise in 18 or 20 months when he upgraded.

Will this deal be this good for all FAT guys as they transition? No, of course not. As always, the more senior you are, the better off you do. However, the same can be true for how this worked out for Southwest guys. Like I said, it's MY OPINION that the deal should have included pay protection, but when you look at reality rather than just APC computed hourly rates, there's little if any difference.

Bubba

 

[shagadelic]

I just flew with an FO who has 198 TFP on his board for May. Granted he lives in base and only had 9 full days off...but he did fly a bunch of turns so in effect he was home quite a bit. He's in the top 30 FO's in base. His check will be $26,100 for May. I'm thinking that's not bad as an FO. I'm curious how many Captains at AT could pull down that kind of coin if they wanted to?

 

[SWA Bubba]

I just flew with an FO who has 198 TFP on his board for May. Granted he lives in base and only had 9 full days off...but he did fly a bunch of turns so in effect he was home quite a bit. He's in the top 30 FO's in base. His check will be $26,100 for May. I'm thinking that's not bad as an FO. I'm curious how many Captains at AT could pull down that kind of coin if they wanted to?

The all-time Southwest record for one month is a MDW captain who got 345 TFP last August. He did it by having two weeks' vacation that month, then working premium during those paid vacation days. Plus he did a lot of stuff with deadheads and generous rigs that didn't count against his 100 in a month. And I suspect he had a lot of "cartel" help. 345 TFP x $190/trip is $65,500 gross for the month. That's crazy sh1t! Obviously, not everyone can do this (and only once a year, when the conditions are perfect), and I think he "worked" over 25 days in the month. Who the hell wants to be a slave to the company (and computer)? Or to work that hard?

Bubba

 

[General Lee]

Actually, General, the "loss of captain seats" isn't as dire as you make it. The overall seniority list is what determines who is a captain and who isn't, after Jan '15. That means those AirTran captains who are holding out at AirTran until the last possible moment will come over shortly before that date, and if they're senior enough to be one, the will "re-upgrade" almost immediately. In fact, it will be nothing BUT former AirTran guys upgrading for quite a while after that date. There are some very senior FAT captains who already came over, and are quite happy being super-senior FOs for now, with Southwest captain seats waiting for them just 18 months from now. And, like I mentioned, the ones holding out (like Ty Webb and others) are still captains now (AirTran ones, at AirTran CBA rates), and will only be over here for a few months before they can re-upgrade (assuming they're senior enough to do so).

In MY OPINION, what should have been done, was make the overall seniority list with whatever DOH adjustment was deemed "fair" (like the average 2.5 years on the accepted list), and when an AirTran guy transitioned, he would be a captain if his seniority could hold it, and an FO otherwise. (Rather than wait several months to 1.5 years first, depending on when he came over.) And I'd also pay-protect anyone who has a new payrate lower than his old one. That doesn't really affect many guys (if any), and being an FO for some months before regaining one's captain seat isn't THAT far from what I described as fair above.

If you're REALLY arguing that they should have kept their captain seats forever, just because (and it seems that IS what you're arguing), then I disagree that it's fair. Nobody on this board has ever given me an answer to why they think that six years' AirTran service is more deserving of a Southwest captain seat, than ten years' of Southwest service is. Do you have one a justification for that, General? In MY OPINION, that wouldn't have been fair to orig Southwest senior FOs who couldn't upgrade.

If a FAT junior captain is now a senior Southwest FO, making the same money, and has better seniority for bidding, base, vacations, etc., then what's the harm? I mean, the guys who bitch say it's not about the money, but downgraded junior FAT captains actually have BETTER QOL as senior Southwest FOs, assuming they make the same money. And eventually, they can trade in that QOL for a 50% payraise when they have the opportunity to upgrade to Southwest captain. Just like anybody else. Some guys stay senior FOs for QOL, and some chase the captain seat.

And to actually answer the question you posed in your post, General, YES. In the first package (the one vetoed by AirTran's MEC), every AirTran captain was given a "captain retention slot" by name. He would be a Southwest captain no matter what base he went to. Forever. (junior base if he was junior, and more senior bases as he could hold it). The only way for him to lose his captain seat was in the even of an overall reduction of captains companywide (or for him to leave the company, or to voluntarily downgrade). Their junior former AirTran captains would probably be on Southwest Captain reserve for years, due to them being junior to many of our FOs, who, when they upgraded, would start off as captains senior to them. They bitched about that, but the only way to change that (since it took less time to upgrade at AirTran than Southwest) would be to give them captain seats, and THEN give them a large INCREASE in seniority over what they had at AirTran. Does that sound fair to you?

Anyway, I'm not saying that these guys don't have anything to bitch about (mainly the change in their careers from the 717s going away, and they way they're being transitioned), but the deal they got (and the one they turned down) is not as bad as you're making it. I don't know if you honestly don't know this, or you're just doing this for SWA-bashing sport. But, there's some facts for you.

Bubba

Thanks Bubba for that response. I do understand your opinion, and I accept it. My opinion differs, of course. Not allowing any AT Capt into a plane that they already operate seems "interesting" to me. Yes, they could have bumped down to the 717s to keep their left seat, but that almost appears like someone didn't want certain pilots in certain seats. It doesn't really make sense. The top 10 guys at AT probably had the seniority to do it, and yet they have to do right seat training again. In arbitration, the likely result would have probably been a lot different. DL management trusted the FNWA Capts to be highly skilled and professional, and never dictated rules otherwise. FNWA pilots flew with a mix of pilots, including FDAL FOs, and everyone learned pretty quick how to fly the way the airline wanted them to. They let arbitrators decide the SLI and fence stuff, and in the end nobody was mad at management about SLI issues.

I see your point, and I just think the 18 month delay was unnecessary. At this stage of the game, a couple sims on procedures and maybe a line check maybe could have sufficed. Regardless, I hope the transitions go well for all of your combined group.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I just flew with an FO who has 198 TFP on his board for May. Granted he lives in base and only had 9 full days off...but he did fly a bunch of turns so in effect he was home quite a bit. He's in the top 30 FO's in base. His check will be $26,100 for May. I'm thinking that's not bad as an FO. I'm curious how many Captains at AT could pull down that kind of coin if they wanted to?

Wow, that is great. Reminds me of the crews stuck in Europe due to that Icelandic volcano blowing up. Many got huge bucks for overtime, and got an extra week in Europe, with per diem.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[shagadelic]

The all-time Southwest record for one month is a MDW captain who got 345 TFP last August. He did it by having two weeks' vacation that month, then working premium during those paid vacation days. Plus he did a lot of stuff with deadheads and generous rigs that didn't count against his 100 in a month. And I suspect he had a lot of "cartel" help. 345 TFP x $190/trip is $65,500 gross for the month. That's crazy sh1t! Obviously, not everyone can do this (and only once a year, when the conditions are perfect), and I think he "worked" over 25 days in the month. Who the hell wants to be a slave to the company (and computer)? Or to work that hard?

Bubba

My record is 192 this past December....with Christmas week off. I had one week of vacation the week before Christmas and scored 5 premium trips over it.

Now that Denver is a base and I'm driving to work I find 140 is not hard and I still have more time off than when I commuted.

Oh, and that guy with 345 does not have a "cartel". His board is open. He does it the old fashioned way. I think this "cartel" thing is way overblown.

 

[Ty Webb]

Madjack says you guys have a 75 hr/month limit.

Wacky Jack is about as reliable as Jay Carney. :laugh:

Our minimum guarantee is 75/76. That's the least you can possibly make flying your awarded line, not the most.

 

[Ty Webb]

I just flew with an FO who has 198 TFP on his board for May. Granted he lives in base and only had 9 full days off...but he did fly a bunch of turns so in effect he was home quite a bit. He's in the top 30 FO's in base. His check will be $26,100 for May. I'm thinking that's not bad as an FO. I'm curious how many Captains at AT could pull down that kind of coin if they wanted to?

Probably not, but I had 11 more days off than that guy, I don't have to live in base, and my trips were commutable 3 day trips with nice long layovers.

I wouldn't trade with him . . . . and he probably wouldn't want to trade with me either.

What's your point?

PS., I did make more than that in May, but it wasn't all at the Tranny.