SWA delaying new planes, adding used Westjet birds --article

[madjack]

At least I have one.... Hows that cramping working out for u?

 

[Tripower455]

UNBELIEVEABLE!

Easy!

ALL...every single one on the property got higher seniority within the company. That means better vacations, bidding power...a better QOL and less chance of being furloughed if something major happens. But I forgot it is all about the money with most of you.

Personally, I've gotten absolutely nothing out of this deal. The same bidding power, the same vacations, the same QOL (actually a little worse nowadays, but that's not the fault of the acquisition) and the same chance of being furloughed.

Ask the displaced (or soon to be) MCO, BWI and MDW FO's about their increased benefits as a result of this wonderful deal. Be sure to mention "Global Seniority" and "No Harm". You'll get an earful.

SWAPA successfully captured all the CA seats and as a consequence, our senior CAs become super senior FOs. If you believe that is harm, go complain to SC. He is the artisan of the harm done to the FOs QOL who are being pushed down or out of their desired domicile. Be careful what you ask for...you just might get it...and have to live with the consequences.

Phred

These guys are the only SW folks to see any kind of benefit from this deal. And unless they live or move out west, the benefit will be be short lived, IMHO.

I know a few that bid back to FO after a few months because the difference in pay is not that much when you compare a Capt's reserve line plus commuting expenses/days with a decent, in domicile, FO hard line.

FWIW, we have MANY FOs passing on upgrade nowadays because the raise is simply not enough to make up for the QOL hit. Basically, as an in domicile FO, they can work the same number of days they would spend commuting to OAK to sit reserve as a Capt, and break pretty close to even.

The only real downsides to staying in the right seat is that they are constantly getting more AT folks put above them, and if they have to go out on medical, it is paid at FO, rather than Capt rates.

 

[redflyer65]

These guys (the upgrades) are the only SW folks to see any kind of benefit from this deal. And unless they live or move out west, the benefit will be be short lived, IMHO.

Tri, your exactly right. The only people on the SW side that saw an immediate change, and the downside is they will be junior for a long time after 2015.

RF

 

[HowardBorden]

But, zero arbitration awards have NOT included Capt slots at BOTH sides

What is ridiculous is that you keep spouting this falsehood. Do some research before you make statements that show you clearly have no idea what you are talking about!

 

[JT12345]

You really think SWA management had anything to do with our pay increase and contract then why did they not just wait for us to go on strike or get a deal on our own? If you really think SWA did it as a favor to us you are truly naive.

Kinda hard to merge a company with the pilots on strike, and they wanted AAI for some strange reason??? And not to do the SWA pilots any favors or AAI pilots. Why did SWA not wait for our so called pilot strike to run the AAI out of business, and then just pick up the scraps. If we were that bad of a company why not wait 2 years for the bankruptcy? That is their timing and our leverage. Who created this timing btw. Maybe they did not want someone else to buy us because we would still be there in another form or maybe they did not think they would get what they wanted in bankruptcy of AAI from a strike or post contract.

Pretty simple. They wanted us out of the way real bad, and they wanted what we have. And who do the AAI pilots have to thank for SWA wanting to buy us? As far as I am concerned we compelled someone to buy us and deserving on either side has nothing to do with it.

With AAI expanding into many of SWA markets and shutting SWA out is a main reason for this merger IMHO. It was not to do their pilots or our pilots any favors. It was a quick and cheaper way to grow than from within. The companies are better as a whole. I will give the deal that; unless the pilots keep up their holier than thou attitude. I will even say that on both sides.

 

[General Lee]

What is ridiculous is that you keep spouting this falsehood. Do some research before you make statements that show you clearly have no idea what you are talking about!

You bumped everyone from the 737s (why? the #1 guy at AT couldn't hold it? In arbitration he would have), and then dumped the 717s (thanks). End result, no Capt slots. AMAZING.... What was the deal with the 737s anyway? Only you guys know how to fly them, obviously.....

So, the #1 guy at AT couldn't flow over to the left seat of the ex-AT 737s?????? Can you see the problem SOOOOOO many people have here HOWARD??? Why couldn't the #1 or #2 Capt go right over? That would NEVER HAPPEN IN ARBITRATION. (the fair way to do SLIs, without management getting involved) Enlighten us Howard......please...


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[StopNTSing]

There may be an exception or two, but why are the only AT pilots I see here crying about the paycut/QOL hit they are "taking" are the one's who have YET TO TRANSFER TO THE SWA SIDE? Why don't ya'll come on over and try it out first. Then tell us exactly what the $hit sandwich tastes like that you've been forced to eat?

 

[HowardBorden]

That would NEVER HAPPEN IN ARBITRATION. (the fair way to do SLIs, without management getting involved) Enlighten us Howard......please...

No one knows what would have happened in an arbitration because it never happened. I suspect an arbitrated award would resemble the first AIP more closely than the deal that was voted in. But all anyone can do is speculate about something that never happened.

What I was commenting on was your false statement. There is a large difference between verifiable factual misrepresentations and meaningless speculation. When you said: "But, zero arbitration awards have NOT included Capt slots at BOTH sides" You are either misinformed or lying to make your point. Which is it?

 

[PCL_128]

I really didn't get much from this deal.

Why do you feel that you were entitled to "get much" from a company business transaction? Did your mommy give you a "participation trophy" when you played soccer as a kid? Did you teachers tell you how "special" you were? Did you actually believe it? Because I can't figure out any other reason that you would somehow feel entitled to gain something from a decision that management made without your input or involvement.

 

[PCL_128]

There may be an exception or two, but why are the only AT pilots I see here crying about the paycut/QOL hit they are "taking" are the one's who have YET TO TRANSFER TO THE SWA SIDE? Why don't ya'll come on over and try it out first. Then tell us exactly what the $hit sandwich tastes like that you've been forced to eat?

Yeah, great idea. I'll start commuting to the west coast and barely being off reserve instead of driving 30 minutes to work and only working a few days a month. Just to "try it out." Great plan.

 

[Tripower455]

Why do you feel that you were entitled to "get much" from a company business transaction? Did your mommy give you a "participation trophy" when you played soccer as a kid? Did you teachers tell you how "special" you were? Did you actually believe it? Because I can't figure out any other reason that you would somehow feel entitled to gain something from a decision that management made without your input or involvement.

The same can be asked of you.

 

[PCL_128]

The same can be asked of you.

Not quite. Unlike redflyer and other SWA whiners, I've never expected to gain anything from this merger. I just wanted what I came in with: my seat, my base, and my seniority.

 

[redflyer65]

Not quite. Unlike redflyer and other SWA whiners, I've never expected to gain anything from this merger. I just wanted what I came in with: my seat, my base, and my seniority.

No whining here. I'm happy where I am.

But from your perspective, you should have gotten a 40-90% payraise across the board....then your base....and your seat, AND keep your seniority.

Talk about out of touch with reality.

 

[climbhappy]

Not quite. Unlike redflyer and other SWA whiners, I've never expected to gain anything from this merger. I just wanted what I came in with: my seat, my base, and my seniority.

haven't you just become your counter points..? wanting something from a mgt decision that did not get your input..? ..sometimes being on outside gives you a much better perspective...

you guys have no cards to play and even if you think you do, in the end it will be a lost cause....know when to fold 'em.

you AT guys are like gamblers in the SWA casino.....the house always wins...(just my opinion...by all means play on..)

 

[redflyer65]

Why do you feel that you were entitled to "get much" from a company business transaction? Did your mommy give you a "participation trophy" when you played soccer as a kid? Did you teachers tell you how "special" you were? Did you actually believe it? Because I can't figure out any other reason that you would somehow feel entitled to gain something from a decision that management made without your input or involvement.

Honestly PCL, I didn't expect to get anything from the deal. I know the Delta guys got a big stock payout and the Airtran pilots got a nice pay increase. It is what it is.

Obviously you expected to get everything.

 

[General Lee]

Not quite. Unlike redflyer and other SWA whiners, I've never expected to gain anything from this merger. I just wanted what I came in with: my seat, my base, and my seniority.

Even with arbitration, that may have been tough to get. You probably would have had your current seat, and since you were a smaller airline you might have gotten a little less seniority. Base wise, a purchasing company can do whatever they want with that (ie CVG shrunk, along with MEM). I think there could have been more Capt awards for the AT guys in binding arbitration, but it appears the SWA guys didn't want any AT guys in the left seat of the 737s, even YOUR 737s you were bringing over, and options too. That is what is interesting here, and nobody wants to answer why that is......Maybe you don't know how to fly it like they do, except to INTL destinations..... Who knows?? I do know that some Capt seats would have been given to AT pilots in arbitration, especially since you were bringing 737s to the table.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[madjack]

They had the seats and gave them up...

 

[General Lee]

No one knows what would have happened in an arbitration because it never happened. I suspect an arbitrated award would resemble the first AIP more closely than the deal that was voted in. But all anyone can do is speculate about something that never happened.

What I was commenting on was your false statement. There is a large difference between verifiable factual misrepresentations and meaningless speculation. When you said: "But, zero arbitration awards have NOT included Capt slots at BOTH sides" You are either misinformed or lying to make your point. Which is it?

It wasn't allowed to happen, even though EVERY other merger in the past 5 years allowed it. You see, in MOST mergers the management wants to stay out of pilot politics, so as not to seem favoring one group over the other, and therefore not gaining an upset chunk of pilots. It's never good to have a pretty good sized chunk of pilots upset. When you do arbitration, nobody except the #1 pilot wins, and everyone has someone in common to point the finger at---the arbitrator(s). Then management moves along with the new group and everyone tries to get along. That is how MOST airlines do it. Your group is the exception, and that might not be a good thing....

As far as arbitration awards, look at CURRENT awards (within this last round of mergers) and see what happened. If the airlines are close in size and both bring like sized planes to the table, some Capts keep their seats on BOTH sides. AT wasn't a 5 plane operation, it was significant in size, and brought ATL and DCA slots plus 737s and orders. You may call that insignificant, but an arbitrator would NOT. Welcome to the new World Howie, and I can see why some are upset at the deal. That is allowed, right?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[texman]

Why do you feel that you were entitled to "get much" from a company business transaction? Did your mommy give you a "participation trophy" when you played soccer as a kid? Did you teachers tell you how "special" you were? Did you actually believe it? Because I can't figure out any other reason that you would somehow feel entitled to gain something from a decision that management made without your input or involvement.

You don't own the captain seats nor the airplanes AT brings to the table. If you want to talk about business transactions. Just saying!

 

[General Lee]

They had the seats and gave them up...

They wanted a fair deal. That doesn't mean the arbitrators would have sided only with the AT pilots. You bring evidence and testimony to the hearings, and then people that have nothing to gain except the process fee decide what is fair. Sounds like one side was nervous about that. Why be nervous? If you were so confident in your position, you should have won in a landslide, right?

They were given two offers, and not one of them was what they wanted. The second seems like a tougher offer, and that is what upsets many I would assume. That sure doesn't promote loyalty.


Bye Bye---General Lee