Email from Airtran MEC: Secret MOU between SWA and SWAPA

[freightdogfred]

I think even GK would admit he's been speaking out of both sides of his mouth since day one. He has consistently said one thing, and done completely the opposite. To have expected him to stand by anything he agreed to in the first agreement is truly laughable.

 

[HowardBorden]

To have expected him to stand by anything he agreed to in the first agreement is truly laughable.

Of course it is laughable. That agreement never reached a member ratification vote. If you truly thought that deal would be kept alive and you could pick and choose the parts you liked and get rid of the parts you didn't like, you are delusional.

It was a package deal. Take it or leave it. Your MEC chose to leave it, which of course is their prerogative.

Many folks on this board and others counseled that the next one that comes along will be worse than the first offer. They were right.

 

[maxblast72]

By posting pay rates from our 2001 contract in order to bolster your argument, you have invalidated your already specious argument.

You were selected to officially represent your fellow pilots; by coming on this public forum you are abusing that trust and embarassing yourself. Give it a rest. Seriously.

You need to go read the following arbitration awards:

- AirTran/Southwest Dispatchers
- AirTran/Southwest Rampers
- Delta/Northwest pilots
- Mesaba/Colgan/Pinnacle pilots
- Frontier/Midwest/Republic pilots
- Shuttle America/Chautauqua pilots
- America West/USAirways pilots

None of those awards would apply directly to our situation (since every merger is unique). However, if you think the arbitration panel was going to ignore SWA's superior balance sheet, CBA, and older pilot group, I got a bridge to sell you in Nevada.

Gary Kelly was correct on July 14th when he told everyone in the room that his package would be better comprehensively than anything the AirTran pilots would get in arbitration.

Gary Kelly knew that most AirTran pilots live paycheck to paycheck and would not be in a position to test him or call his bluff on plan B. You wouldn't believe the emails the MC got on August 22 after Gary Kelly's chilly email. Guys that were the biggest "No" guys just a week earlier were crapping their pants.

It is what it is. Time to learn from history and move on.

 

[freightdogfred]

Of course it is laughable. That agreement never reached a member ratification vote. If you truly thought that deal would be kept alive and you could pick and choose the parts you liked and get rid of the parts you didn't like, you are delusional.

It was a package deal. Take it or leave it. Your MEC chose to leave it, which of course is their prerogative.

Many folks on this board and others counseled that the next one that comes along will be worse than the first offer. They were right.

My point is that had the first deal been voted in, GK still would have reneged on any provision he chose, such as fences, pay etc. Numerous SWAPA members who post here affirmed it to be his right as a "business decision". So be it. I really don't care what he says or does at this point as long as he keeps that balance sheet above 6.992B. I'm a stockholder now, I buy stock monthly so if he plays hardball with SWAPA over section six i'm all for that too.

I hope to make lots of friends over there. ( Ben franklin, grant etc.)

 

[Kharma Police]

Well u could of kept the ATL 10year fence too but that's GKs and SWAPAs fault right?

Easy Maverick, you're on the highway to the danger zone regarding hurting your future FAT FO's feelings. We are very sensitive....

 

[HowardBorden]

My point is that had the first deal been voted in, GK still would have reneged on any provision he chose, such as fences, pay etc. Numerous SWAPA members who post here affirmed it to be his right as a "business decision". So be it. I really don't care what he says or does at this point as long as he keeps that balance sheet above 6.992B. I'm a stockholder now, I buy stock monthly so if he plays hardball with SWAPA over section six i'm all for that too.

I hope to make lots of friends over there. ( Ben franklin, grant etc.)

Any agreement would have been part of your CBA, just like any agreement would have become part of SWAPA's CBA. It would be ALPA's duty to enforce their CBA just like SWAPA. If you are worried about ALPA's ability or desire to spend much capital enforcing an agreement from a pilot group soon to be leaving the organization, then I can see your point.

Trust me he will play hardball in section 6 just as in any negotiation with a union group. Remember, any gains or losses in section 6 will be shared by both groups in 2015.

 

[madjack]

Kharma,

Your dangerous

 

[Kharma Police]

Kharma,

Your dangerous

Does this mean we can play beach volleyball together?

 

[Britpilot]

Many folks on this board and others counseled that the next one that comes along will be worse than the first offer. They were right.

There should never have been any offer.
We were supposed to be negotiating a list. The company took it upon themselves to stick their nose in and ultimately intimidate and bully the ATI pilots.
Nothing can be done about this now, it's history but I will never trust them or SWAPA.

 

[freightdogfred]

Gary Kelly knew that most AirTran pilots live paycheck to paycheck and would not be in a position to test him or call his bluff on plan B.

How can you post such drivel? GK might be a demigod down in DFT, but I doubt he has inside info on individual pilot's personal fiscal situation.

Maybe you're speaking about your own personal situation, I don't know.

 

[HowardBorden]

There should never have been any offer.
We were supposed to be negotiating a list. The company took it upon themselves to stick their nose in and ultimately intimidate and bully the ATI pilots.
Nothing can be done about this now, it's history but I will never trust them or SWAPA.

Again and again I keep pointing out that SWA was invited into the negotiations through the process agreement, yet that point falls on deaf ears. Why were they invited if they were not expected to participate? Did SWA bully the other 3 parties into signing that document?

 

[Britpilot]

Again and again I keep pointing out that SWA was invited into the negotiations through the process agreement, yet that point falls on deaf ears. Why were they invited if they were not expected to participate? Did SWA bully the other 3 parties into signing that document?

Again and again you miss the point.
We were negotiating a list.
SWA could have participated all they wanted. Instead they took over and the rest is history.

 

[Britpilot]

How can you post such drivel? GK might be a demigod down in DFT, but I doubt he has inside info on individual pilot's personal fiscal situation.

Maybe you're speaking about your own personal situation, I don't know.

Common knowledge as far as ATI FO's were concerned. Not difficult to figure out.

 

[maxblast72]

How can you post such drivel? GK might be a demigod down in DFT, but I doubt he has inside info on individual pilot's personal fiscal situation.

Maybe you're speaking about your own personal situation, I don't know.

You don't think Fornaro clued Gary Kelly about AirTran pilots during discussions in 2010?

My personal situation. Wife and I plan to be totally debt free (including house) in less than 18 months. I am ready to go on strike for a year if SWAPA asks me too. Doubt that will be necessary.

 

[scoreboardII]

Again and again you miss the point.
We were negotiating a list.
SWA could have participated all they wanted. Instead they took over and the rest is history.

Nothing in the three party agreement prevented SwA from interjecting in the list. In fact the agreement specifically gave SwA the right, the privilege and the duty to do just that.

You are ignoring facts to write your own history. You need to wake up and smell the coffee we call "reality of facts"

 

[K-Mart]

Again and again you miss the point.
We were negotiating a list.
SWA could have participated all they wanted. Instead they took over and the rest is history.

You have valid points.

Don't you believe too, that SWA as the company purchasing AirTran had the right to participate. If I purchased another company I kinda feel like I should have that right as well. After all it is their money, right? Personally I think they should do what they want and if they felt there own employees should not have their seniority decided by an unknown person then that is SWA's right to do so.

My only heartburn with the company is they should have made their intentions clear on day one. But they tried to play the nice guy even going to the point where Gary Kelly said he couldn't intervene in the seniority integration.

Bottom line though, SWA can and should do what it thinks is fair and right for the business. It's their money they can do what they want.

 

[SWA/FO]

Well said Kit Darby!

Gary didn't want a USAir/AWA deal. He saw what happens when management doesn't get involved.

 

[Britpilot]

Nothing in the three party agreement prevented SwA from interjecting in the list. In fact the agreement specifically gave SwA the right, the privilege and the duty to do just that.

You are ignoring facts to write your own history. You need to wake up and smell the coffee we call "reality of facts"

Not ignoring the facts at all. Just pointing out what happened.
Truth is I don't care any more. This is just a job now. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[redflyer65]

Nothing in the three party agreement prevented SwA from interjecting in the list. In fact the agreement specifically gave SwA the right, the privilege and the duty to do just that.

You are ignoring facts to write your own history. You need to wake up and smell the coffee we call "reality of facts"

Exactly Scoreboard. The company carried the checkbook if it was required during the negotiations.


Brit,

You talk about it being about a negotiated list. IT WAS. The 2 NC's worked out a list and Gary came in with the money for the AAI pilots.

So what happened in offer two? Gary withdrew his money and the list was adjusted slighty and it was over. So in the end, you had a list with NO money on the AAI side.

The first offer was always going to be the best. I was in serious doubt that it ever would go to arbitration. That pretty much played out as I expected.

The Airtran pilots got steamrolled over the actions of the Magnificent Seven.

It looks more and more like an arbitrated list could have turned out worse for the Airtran pilots.

 

[Britpilot]

You have valid points.

Don't you believe too, that SWA as the company purchasing AirTran had the right to participate. If I purchased another company I kinda feel like I should have that right as well. After all it is their money, right? Personally I think they should do what they want and if they felt there own employees should not have their seniority decided by an unknown person then that is SWA's right to do so.

My only heartburn with the company is they should have made their intentions clear on day one. But they tried to play the nice guy even going to the point where Gary Kelly said he couldn't intervene in the seniority integration.

Bottom line though, SWA can and should do what it thinks is fair and right for the business. It's their money they can do what they want.

Did Delta purchase NWA? Did Delta get involved with SLI negotiations?
The thing is that the law says SWA cannot do what it wants. So they figured a way around the law and it worked.
The only problem was that it alienated 1750 employees of SWA, the ATI pilots.
That's where we are today.

 

[Britpilot]

Exactly Scoreboard. The company carried the checkbook if it was required during the negotiations.


Brit,

You talk about it being about a negotiated list. IT WAS. The 2 NC's worked out a list and Gary came in with the money for the AAI pilots.
.

No. The NC for ATI was working on an integrated list.
SWA entered into those negotiations with it's own plan which you call Offer # 1.
The NC did not negotiate stapling all ATI FO's to the bottom of the list.
After Offer # 1 was rejected by the MEC and GK went public with his threat to not integrate the pilots, the NC was instructed to go and get what they could. That resulted in offer # 2.
You don't think we know what went on during the SLI process? We were a small group and therefore the word about what actually happened got around quick.
Your version is false. Your group got what it wanted, you won the fight. The odds were stacked against the AAI pilot's from the start.

 

[canyonblue]

Did Delta purchase NWA?

You're comparing Delta/NWA to Southwest/AAI? :laugh: You're funny man.

 

[Britpilot]

You're comparing Delta/NWA to Southwest/AAI? :laugh: You're funny man.

Glad you think so.
The thing is that their SLI was conducted fairly without interference from the company.
Not that you will ever understand that with your arrogance.

 

[bluesideup1]

Glad you think so.
The thing is that their SLI was conducted fairly without interference from the company.
Not that you will ever understand that with your arrogance.

Yes but it was also a SLI based on two very similar companies. Airtran was not in the same league as SW and the arbitrators have already shown this. The only thing that Airtran could bring to the Negotiating table was seniority. Just about everything else was better in the SWAPA contract than the Airtran contract. So, unless Airtran was going to give RSW pilots 20-40 percent raises then what did you have to negotiate with?

P.S. BTW holding out for binding arbitration short of getting relative seniority was not a wise negotiating tactic.

 

[StarrBuck]

I didn't get what I wanted... Way too many RAT's ahead of me.. If its so bad you always have options and choices right?

 

[humveedriver]

Yes but it was also a SLI based on two very similar companies. Airtran was not in the same league as SW...

Financially, I agree with that. It's just that our product and operating procedures were light years ahead of SWA. That's the part that stings. I just can't believe either side hasn't won the other over in this debate. Completely shocked.

 

[Britpilot]

I didn't get what I wanted... Way too many RAT's ahead of me.. If its so bad you always have options and choices right?

Yes......and so do you right?
Difference is I may have exercise that option.

 

[Ty Webb]

Financially, I agree with that. It's just that our product and operating procedures were light years ahead of SWA. That's the part that stings. I just can't believe either side hasn't won the other over in this debate. Completely shocked.

The only thing worse than a sore loser is a sore winner.

No, wait..... A sore winner who doesn't even know what he's won.

 

[SWA/FO]

No. The NC for ATI was working on an integrated list.

The NC for AT wasn't even negotiating. They were dragging their feet, hoping a third party would decide their future. Expectations were high on the Tranny side, DOH worst case, they were sold.

The 17% Tranny frame of mind was: Of course, Gary would turn his back (some say he did) on the Pilots that got him this far and side with 1700 Pilots that, never got hired at Southwest, didn't qualify to apply (some) or worst never wanted to work for Southwest. He was going to have your back, right! A hostal work group that voted 97% to strike and shut down the Company. You weren't getting the benefit of the doubt from him. Then you drag your feet in negotiatings. So Gary has some new toys he really can't even touch until he gets some progress going. Then you have the CEO get involved as the agreement said he could. Nothing illegal about it.

So everybody thinks Delta Management didn't get involved with their SLI is crazy. They threw the money at it. What do you always hear Delta guys say? "I got $40,000 towards my retirement and more is on the way". You guys need to stop comparing it to Delta's SLI.... Gary was trying to keep it from being a US/AWA SLI list. Gary got it done with spending NOTHING. Thats impressive if you think about it.

Gary got pissed and jumped into the fold, Tranny played cards wrong, so sad. Lets find someone to blame other then ourselves.

You made your own bed. You pissed off the guy that writes the checks.

 

[Kharma Police]

I didn't get what I wanted... Way too many RAT's ahead of me.. If its so bad you always have options and choices right?

Sweet!, looks like I'll be bidding BWI!!!!