It's Official: USAirways Wants American

[sean67]

The 9th ruled on ripeness only, not merits or anything else USAPA preaches. Dream all you want, but the NIC is the list for AWA/AAA going forward and AA will put the joint contract in play that will activate it to combine with AA. There are no second bites of the apple for East Pilots...

Keep deaming...it'll be a do over( if we do merge).

 

[sean67]

....sorry dreaming

 

[waveflyer]

Keep deaming...it'll be a do over( if we do merge).

Time will tell, but I doubt it- Nic will be merged into AA, favoring APA-
The Nic is your list regardless of how the east feels about it

 

[Captzaahlie]

............

 

[Turtle21]

Time will tell, but I doubt it- Nic will be merged into AA, favoring APA-
The Nic is your list regardless of how the east feels about it

The Nic list (ALPA) and DOH with C&R list (USAPA) are both proposals that won't fly if USAir wants to get past the seniority dispute.

 

[Turtle21]

The 9th ruled on ripeness only, not merits or anything else USAPA preaches. Dream all you want, but the NIC is the list for AWA/AAA going forward and AA will put the joint contract in play that will activate it to combine with AA. There are no second bites of the apple for East Pilots...

The 9th said "seniority dispute", and the more you post the more you prove they said a lot more than "not ripe".

 

[waveflyer]

The Nic list (ALPA) and DOH with C&R list (USAPA) are both proposals that won't fly if USAir wants to get past the seniority dispute.

And you would stop the APA's will how?
This will go to arbitration, and the arbitrator will use NIC as the baseline of integrating TWO airlines- (an arbitrator will not toss aside a final and binding award issued by another arbitrator), then, if satisfactory to APA- they will pass it and don't need the east to sign off on anything-
The only way you can hold on to your beloved LOA 93 with its industry trailing, well sub-VA startup rates, is if the binding award displeases the APA and they pull a USAPA-

Either way, it'll be good to see the east holding a minority position in a seniority dispute

 

[Turtle21]

And you would stop the APA's will how?
This will go to arbitration, and the arbitrator will use NIC as the baseline of integrating TWO airlines- (an arbitrator will not toss aside a final and binding award issued by another arbitrator), then, if satisfactory to APA- they will pass it and don't need the east to sign off on anything-
The only way you can hold on to your beloved LOA 93 with its industry trailing, well sub-VA startup rates, is if the binding award displeases the APA and they pull a USAPA-

Either way, it'll be good to see the east holding a minority position in a seniority dispute

Judge Wake thought he could force the Nic but the 9th and the SCOTUS removed that restriction. If an arbitrator thinks he will reinstate it now he has more rocks in his head than Wake.

An arbitrator will use the lists the lawful representatives (APA and USAPA) provides him. If anyone (including USAPA) expects to give an arbitrator a list that has never been ratified, much less implimented (Nic or DOH, both of which are wholly foreign to the present employment circumstances of the two pilot groups) they are fools. Not that the profession lacks its share of such.

 

[reepicheep]

My guess is Parker won't wait around for USAPA to drag this out for 5 years with their "Gold Standard" DOH bu!!$hit. More likely a Southwest/AirTran style prenup. A ratioed- by-equipment list using Nic. resulting in 25-30% raises for the east. If the east doesn't like it they'll like the alternative a whole lot less.

Of course Parker could also decide he'd rather throw 1500 west pilots under the bus than 3000 east, and tell APA it's USAPA's DOH with fences list or the deal's off, and invite the west pilots to spend the next decade trying to fight it in court.

Frankly I can see Parker pulling off either one....

 

[DustyBottoms]

Judge Wake thought he could force the Nic but the 9th and the SCOTUS removed that restriction. If an arbitrator thinks he will reinstate it now he has more rocks in his head than Wake.

Removed what restriction? That USAPA is maintaining its duty of fair representation until it puts out its own list to vote? It sounds like you haven't read any of the court documents (Wake's and the 9th). I didn't read all of the court docs, but I didn't see anything about Wake forcing the NIC... or the 9th and SCOTUS giving USAPA carte blanche without any liability. Actually, I haven't read anywhere that SCOTUS even heard the case...

An arbitrator will use the lists the lawful representatives (APA and USAPA) provides him. If anyone (including USAPA) expects to give an arbitrator a list that has never been ratified, much less implimented (Nic or DOH, both of which are wholly foreign to the present employment circumstances of the two pilot groups) they are fools. Not that the profession lacks its share of such.

Huh? What list does USAPA give to the arbitrator? According to you, USAPA can't give a list to the arbitrator other than the individual East and West lists.

If that's what you're saying, then I agree... three lists to work from. And guess what two lists have already been previously integrated into one list by an arbitrator. Guess which resluting list list a certain side can reference from, where months of arbitration has already been accomplished by fellow arbitrator. Guess which list will provide the least amount of legal obstacles for APA and the New Company. Guess which list APA could piggy back from to get the top two or three thousand spots for their wide bodies.

In other words, I'm not sure that the NIC is a done deal, but the cards are certainly stacked against whatever USAPA has in mind.

 

[Turtle21]

My guess is Parker won't wait around for USAPA to drag this out for 5 years with their "Gold Standard" DOH bu!!$hit. More likely a Southwest/AirTran style prenup. A ratioed- by-equipment list using Nic. resulting in 25-30% raises for the east. If the east doesn't like it they'll like the alternative a whole lot less.

Of course Parker could also decide he'd rather throw 1500 west pilots under the bus than 3000 east, and tell APA it's USAPA's DOH with fences list or the deal's off, and invite the west pilots to spend the next decade trying to fight it in court.

Frankly I can see Parker pulling off either one....

There are three ratified lists that are presently enforced. An arbitrator could not possibly expect to work on anything other than ratified lists or he would expect an injunction post haste.

Disputed lists of bygone eras would be of no use.

 

[Turtle21]

Removed what restriction? That USAPA is maintaining its duty of fair representation until it puts out its own list to vote? It sounds like you haven't read any of the court documents (Wake's and the 9th). I didn't read all of the court docs, but I didn't see anything about Wake forcing the NIC... or the 9th and SCOTUS giving USAPA carte blanche without any liability. Actually, I haven't read anywhere that SCOTUS even heard the case...



Huh? What list does USAPA give to the arbitrator? According to you, USAPA can't give a list to the arbitrator other than the individual East and West lists.

If that's what you're saying, then I agree... three lists to work from. And guess what two lists have already been previously integrated into one list by an arbitrator. Guess which resluting list list a certain side can reference from, where months of arbitration has already been accomplished by fellow arbitrator. Guess which list will provide the least amount of legal obstacles for APA and the New Company. Guess which list APA could piggy back from to get the top two or three thousand spots for their wide bodies.

In other words, I'm not sure that the NIC is a done deal, but the cards are certainly stacked against whatever USAPA has in mind.

How is a union going to pass an arbitrator anything other than the ratified lists that it presently enforces? And besides the Nic is ancient history of different lists than exist today and was formulated on factors that are irrelevant now.

 

[sean67]

Judge Wake thought he could force the Nic but the 9th and the SCOTUS removed that restriction. If an arbitrator thinks he will reinstate it now he has more rocks in his head than Wake.

An arbitrator will use the lists the lawful representatives (APA and USAPA) provides him. If anyone (including USAPA) expects to give an arbitrator a list that has never been ratified, much less implimented (Nic or DOH, both of which are wholly foreign to the present employment circumstances of the two pilot groups) they are fools. Not that the profession lacks its share of such.

I agree..What do I know, but I believe it'll be a do over. Nic has never been implemented.

 

[Lampshade]

I agree..What do I know, but I believe it'll be a do over. Nic has never been implemented.

Of course you believe that because you are a east recall, Jr.to all the AWA guys. I know you don't like it and want another bite at the apple (at the wests expense) but it's not going to happen..ever. The reaality fist is about to meet your nose. Enjoy.

 

[captfred]

The reaality fist is about to meet your nose. Enjoy.

Too funny. Hey your avitar picture loks like a fat dude I have seen in the crewroom maining the pickleballer bb.

 

[Turtle21]

I agree..What do I know, but I believe it'll be a do over. Nic has never been implemented.

Hardly a do over. This is an entirely new merger situation. Looking back to a proposal that was never ratified or implemented, and submitting a proposal for arbitration (rather than actual true, ratified, current seniority lists) would be a serious breach of DFR, whether NIC or DOH.

Submitting the NIC or a DOH list would be a false representation of the current seniority status of every pilot as it exists today.

An arbitrator would not be merging lists that are desired or possible sometime in the future, but merging lists as they are currently and legally enforced across the fleet.

 

[Carl S.]

Turtle, the TA is still in effect and goes away with a joint contract with the Nic in place. Guess what, APA is looking at your new contract right now and if this goes forward, the Nic is the list for AWA/AAA and then comes LCC/AA....still with me? Dream all you want about second bites, present positions and three lists, but AWA/AAA is done, just waiting for that joint contract thing to happen, who would of thought it could come this way with no East input!!! Contract law, its a b*tch isn't it....

 

[B-atch]

Turtle, the TA is still in effect and goes away with a joint contract with the Nic in place. Guess what, APA is looking at your new contract right now and if this goes forward, the Nic is the list for AWA/AAA and then comes LCC/AA....still with me? Dream all you want about second bites, present positions and three lists, but AWA/AAA is done, just waiting for that joint contract thing to happen, who would of thought it could come this way with no East input!!! Contract law, its a b*tch isn't it....

prepare to be disappointed.....nic is doa. The sooner you embrace this, the faster we move forward.

 

[dollacrackho]

Lets just kill the whole merger its so much more fun getting paid sh!t wages and listening to 5 year olds argue about who stole their cookie.

 

[waveflyer]

Again, the east is dealing in reality as they wish it were rather than how it is-
That's always a tough lesson-
In any case, this time you won't have the numbers to manipulate the situation- usair combined will largely be along for the ride

What I find funny is the eery similarities between this acquisition and the last one.

USAir felt superior to AWA
AA has always been a superior airline to usair

The question isn't Nic, that's been done- it's if arbitration yields a list that AA isn't happy with, would they pull numbers, and go the route the east went?

How would you east pilots feel about that?

 

[Scoot 11]

Classless.... very disappointing

He's a Southwest pilot. I expect nothing less! You did notice how the SW moderator let that go but reprimands anything/everything you might say towards his airline.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[ASADFW7]

I gave the poster an infraction and sent him a private email about the language. As for banning him I front of everyone else, we have a progression scale that we use for such behavior. Further offenses may merit a suspension. Self policing and flagging posts helps everyone as well. That post was flagged, and I did respond. It is the weekend and I was both working and now holding my five month old on my lap as I type. Thanks for the input, it is always needed as what makes this forum work is the members.

 

[On Your Six]

prepare to be disappointed.....nic is doa. The sooner you embrace this, the faster we move forward.

No, it is not. It's called binding arbitration. The company is waiting to see with Judge Silver how to handle it, but they are aware that they could be sued also if anything affects the West side. The APA is also aware I am sure. So, when USAPA is voted out, the APA will most likely reinstate the NIC award, and then move forward with an eventual SLI. You can't escape obligation, and that happened when your MEC signed up for BINDING ARBITRATION.


Godspeed!

The OYSter

 

[Carl S.]

Lots of desperate pilots out East this weekend thinking about COC not a factor, APA cram down, no input to their future, joint contract with NIC and no ratification vote. Far from a done deal, but karma is a b*tch for those that dealt it out for the past seven years to West pilots.

 

[Flybywire44]

OYS, everyone knows what binding arbitration is. We're trying to discuss how Leo, East and APA will search for LEGAL BASIS to impose ajendas.

There will be a quick transition to APA usurping USAPA. I expect USAPA will transition towards playing a minimal role in this process—its leadership may become more concerned with gaining seats within APA. Leo will always retain the right to pursue injunctions/lawsuits against any SLI process that disregards Nic.

Nic becomes effective when an agreement between East and West is signed, but how does a single contract between East, West and APA change things? APA is a third party not bound to Nic. Does this mean that there could be a legal basis for another round of binding arbitration? We can't rule this possibility out.

What incentive does APA have to support Nic? The Nic award will hurt APA pilot career progression by introducing relatively younger pilots ahead of yet another larger voting block of more tenured professionals set to retire well in advance of West pilots.

APA may be exploring ways to maneuver around Nic. As any good union would, I'm sure they're considering all options/scenarios/incentives.

 

[Turtle21]

Turtle, the TA is still in effect and goes away with a joint contract .....

The TA which only addresses a merger of USAir and AWA is not adequate to effect/execute the present proposed merger, not even.

 

[vetrider]

OYS, everyone knows what binding arbitration is. We're trying to discuss how Leo, East and APA will search for LEGAL BASIS to impose ajendas.

There will be a quick transition to APA usurping USAPA. I expect USAPA will transition towards playing a minimal role in this process—its leadership may become more concerned with gaining seats within APA. Leo will always retain the right to pursue injunctions/lawsuits against any SLI process that disregards Nic.

Nic becomes effective when an agreement between East and West is signed, but how does a single contract between East, West and APA change things? APA is a third party not bound to Nic. Does this mean that there could be a legal basis for another round of binding arbitration? We can't rule this possibility out.

What incentive does APA have to support Nic? The Nic award will hurt APA pilot career progression by introducing relatively younger pilots ahead of yet another larger voting block of more tenured professionals set to retire well in advance of West pilots.

APA may be exploring ways to maneuver around Nic. As any good union would, I'm sure they're considering all options/scenarios/incentives.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure about some of your post, but that's ok, no biggie. Regarding that last bolded sentence though, I suspect you're right. I remember looking at a rundown of the APA meeting from an ex-AA pilot that was making the rounds. In it, regarding the seniority issue, there was a comment along the lines of there being 'various opinions' amongst some legal folks they've run the issue by at the cursory level.

 

[waveflyer]

I'm kind of curious what was written now

Not intentionally trying to fire anybody up- I view the APA in high esteem and believe they will act honorably in the best interests of the profession and themselves-
Good luck with the East though- don't let them tell you what 777 line they'll be bidding on after they displace you, on the shuttle bus when this "done deal" goes through

As always I represent only my alter ego waveflyer on FI, not swa, and not even my more tempered real self - its FI fellas, relax.

 

[On Your Six]

OYS, everyone knows what binding arbitration is. We're trying to discuss how Leo, East and APA will search for LEGAL BASIS to impose ajendas.

There will be a quick transition to APA usurping USAPA. I expect USAPA will transition towards playing a minimal role in this process—its leadership may become more concerned with gaining seats within APA. Leo will always retain the right to pursue injunctions/lawsuits against any SLI process that disregards Nic.

Nic becomes effective when an agreement between East and West is signed, but how does a single contract between East, West and APA change things? APA is a third party not bound to Nic. Does this mean that there could be a legal basis for another round of binding arbitration? We can't rule this possibility out.

What incentive does APA have to support Nic? The Nic award will hurt APA pilot career progression by introducing relatively younger pilots ahead of yet another larger voting block of more tenured professionals set to retire well in advance of West pilots.

APA may be exploring ways to maneuver around Nic. As any good union would, I'm sure they're considering all options/scenarios/incentives.

It's very easy. US positions to aquire AA, and tells the East and West that if they don't merge the lists the way the NIC award was supposed to do, then they will operate AA seperately, (just like the East and West are done now---staying on their own planes), and only give the AA guys the raise. Take it or leave it. If they want a 30% raise, they will do it. If not and they want to continue to be babies and stubborn, then they can vote no. Then, when the APA tries to get a vote for a union, and the Westies overwhelmingly agree to vote USAPA out, the East guys will be left holding the bag.

Judge Silver will be issuing a ruling shortly, and everyone knows the Easties went around a binding award. It's just obvious. So, a lot is also riding on Judge Silver. I suspect there will be another round of Binding Arbitration, but after the NIC award is presented as the US list.


Godspeed!


The OYSter

 

[Turtle21]

I'm kind of curious what was written now

Not intentionally trying to fire anybody up- I view the APA in high esteem and believe they will act honorably in the best interests of the profession and themselves-
Good luck with the East though- don't let them tell you what 777 line they'll be bidding on after they displace you, on the shuttle bus when this "done deal" goes through

As always I represent only my alter ego waveflyer on FI, not swa, and not even my more tempered real self - its FI fellas, relax.

You sir are not really a pilot if you believe there is any collective honor among union members. :lol: well you can say it but you cannot believe it, not if you have ever paid ALPA dues. :lol: