Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

AMR Proposal Highlights

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Register   Log in
Iflyamouse

Iflyamouse

Is it time for lunch yet?
Joined
Jul 24, 2002
Posts
129
Still want to be a legacy airline pilot?

Pay banding (pay based on group size, not individual aircraft)

CA pay on 88 seat (Group I, 88-118 seats) aircraft is the same as MD80 (Group III, MD80/737-8) FO pay.

Pref Bid System
Eagle (or other commuter) gets everything up to 88 seats. Max number is greater of 255 or 1/2 of mainline fleet, Eagle isn't the only allowed commuter carrier

1.5% raise / year
Hotels = preference to airport hotel
Eliminate night pay / international override
Move recurrent training to distance learning, distance learning = 1/3 hourly rate
Bucket system for reserves

85 hour guarantee for reserves
Reserves get no fatigue protection (I assume on first call-out)

Max vacation = 35 days
Supplement CC: get rid of STL staffing requirement, TWA pilots stay in the same spot on the sen list as they're currently at.

No furlough protection

Profit sharing (no details)
Employees pay 23% of healthcare costs, 3 plans to choose from
Pension = gone for new pilots, some benefits remain for those currently vested.
13.5% contribution to defined benefit plan.
 
Last edited:
There was a time American flew 86 seat Fokkers and had 117 seat 717's from TWA. Too bad Skywest or Republic will be able to purchase (or modify current) 86 seat RJ's and do this flying for American now. It's like watching the Poles melt into the ocean.
 
humveedriver said:
There was a time American flew 86 seat Fokkers and had 117 seat 717's from TWA.
Click to expand...

Yes, 2 hugely successful commercial airliners.....not.

The biggest mistake in the restructuring would be to allow the same a$$clowns that made those type of fleet decisions to be responsible for developing the new strategic plan.
 
No line holder monthly guarantee? Sick time at 60% if more than two events per year? Up to 88 seats outsourced? They must be joking. Tell them to %&*^ off.
 
This is AA dream proposal pitch, now APA has a chance to stand firm and hit this thing out of the ballpark. That won't look good on the pitcher.
 
I saw the new proposed pay scale and thought, "Wow, that's pretty damn good." Then, I knew something had to be wrong because, it was too good to be true and, as I looked closer at the title of the scale it said, '12 year scale'. YUCK.
 
PCL_128 said:
No line holder monthly guarantee? Sick time at 60% if more than two events per year? Up to 88 seats outsourced? They must be joking. Tell them to %&*^ off.
Click to expand...

PCL- how much more could I agree? An enormous +1! ******************** off AA. What an embarrassment to the name.

If they "need" this, it's already over. I've never seen a proposal so worthy of "full pay to the last day"- except they've already had you at 65% pay for 8 years now.
 
Yuppyguppy said:
It may be better to end the company than to let the 88 seater get into the hands of the teenagers...just sayin.
Click to expand...

Its gonna be ugly and while this carries on the already poor service will deteriorate further and passengers will continue to migrate to other carriers which will drive down revenues further.
 
Show of solidarity

Just a thought...

As other pilot groups pressure the AA pilots to "draw a line in the sand" and maintain "full pay to the last day" in light of the company openers, I think now would be a good time for all MEC's and/or BOD (Swapa) to begin the process of working with their respective managements in drafting agreements offering preferential interviews/hiring for the AA pilot group.

This is where the rubber meets the road in the need to support each other when a group is under attack.

Btw, I believe the company is obviously setting the stage for a down and dirty negotiation. We have just seen what is behind door number one. Door number two will be the results of direct negotiations which will produce a document which is less painful than door number one. The company will then give the pilot group a choice; ratify door number two, or risk a successful 1113 petition by the company which implements door number one.

The next question that may be considered is the "right" of the pilot group to participate in "self help" should contractual changes be imposed unilaterally by the court. Most likely the judge would issue an injunction (subject to appeal), forcing employees back to work.

Some history from Congressional testimony:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...gvmKDw&usg=AFQjCNHv7BVGl8_559632VODShqENlBykQ

S
 
Last edited:
Is the pay that bad? What am I missing?

Currently AA does not have any aircraft on property that would be classified as group I or II... So this just puts a rate in place if they get some. They have Airbus aircraft on order, and any 319's would be group II.

It appears that there is no pay reduction for any aircraft currently on the property. (Granted, there are losses in other areas - but does anyone really think the pilots could get through the BK process without any losses?)

Group I CA would pay 119/hr top of scale. Group II CA would pay 139 TOS... That's still better than what US Air or United pays...
 
Last edited:
ALGFLYR said:
Is the pay that bad? What am I missing?

Currently AA does not have any aircraft on property that would be classified as group I or II... So this just puts a rate in place if they get some. They have Airbus aircraft on order, and any 319's would be group II.

It appears that there is no pay reduction for any aircraft currently on the property. (Granted, there are losses in other areas - but does anyone really think the pilots could get through the BK process without any losses?)

Group I CA would pay 119/hr top of scale. Group II CA would pay 139 TOS... That's still better than what US Air or United pays...
Click to expand...

They are setting the stage to be just like US Airways, where 99 seaters (E190's) are paid very low and everything smaller is flown by regional partners (CRJ900's etc). Perhaps this proposal is supposed to start lining things up to make a merger go more smoothly? If they did merge with somebody else (B6, LCC, DAL) they would suddenly acquire a lot of regional feed above 50 seats. When United and Continental merged the differences in scope was a major bone of contention.
 
tzskipper said:
Just a thought...

As other pilot groups pressure the AA pilots to "draw a line in the sand" and maintain "full pay to the last day" in light of the company openers, I think now would be a good time for all MEC's and/or BOD (Swapa) to begin the process of working with their respective managements in drafting agreements offering preferential interviews/hiring for the AA pilot group.

This is where the rubber meets the road in the need to support each other when a group is under attack.

Btw, I believe the company is obviously setting the stage for a down and dirty negotiation. We have just seen what is behind door number one. Door number two will be the results of direct negotiations which will produce a document which is less painful than door number one. The company will then give the pilot group a choice; ratify door number two, or risk a successful 1113 petition by the company which implements door number one.

The next question that may be considered is the "right" of the pilot group to participate in "self help" should contractual changes be imposed unilaterally by the court. Most likely the judge would issue an injunction (subject to appeal), forcing employees back to work.

Some history from Congressional testimony:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...gvmKDw&usg=AFQjCNHv7BVGl8_559632VODShqENlBykQ

S
Click to expand...

Ditto.

Remember, this is an opener, and most likely what they would seek with an 1113(c). They have to show good faith negotiating effort and the APA would have to show little faith effort to get that from the judge.

Hold fast to scope.

The pensions are most likely history. The key is how much the Co. is going to have to pay, and how much of that comes out of the concessionary agreement forthcoming.
 
It is too bad for AA. As a paying passenger I used to try to fly AA, since the bankruptcy I have had a couple of bad experiences and now try to find another carrier. I don't know how bad it is, but I am sure that business is going to go down a bit (10%) because of the bankruptcy.
 
Whine Lover said:
" That's still better than what US Air or United pays..."

So, it's better to only be pissed upon... that shat upon.

Right?
Click to expand...


So do you think the pilots can come out of BK with pay raises and contract improvments?? And they won't have to give anything up??
 
ackattacker said:
They are setting the stage to be just like US Airways, where 99 seaters (E190's) are paid very low and everything smaller is flown by regional partners (CRJ900's etc). Perhaps this proposal is supposed to start lining things up to make a merger go more smoothly? If they did merge with somebody else (B6, LCC, DAL) they would suddenly acquire a lot of regional feed above 50 seats. When United and Continental merged the differences in scope was a major bone of contention.
Click to expand...

Those were my thoughts too... It seems this BK proposal starts trimming their contract to closely match the US Airways contract they exited BK with...
 
PCL_128 said:
No line holder monthly guarantee? Sick time at 60% if more than two events per year? Up to 88 seats outsourced? They must be joking. Tell them to %&*^ off.
Click to expand...


Ironic. There's a photo of you smiling happily at the signing of our last CBA.

- 84 Seat RJ's outsourced.

- Sick time re-payed into sick bank at 66% after a number of events.
 
humveedriver said:
There was a time American flew 86 seat Fokkers and had 117 seat 717's from TWA. Too bad Skywest or Republic will be able to purchase (or modify current) 86 seat RJ's and do this flying for American now. It's like watching the Poles melt into the ocean.
Click to expand...

In less than 10 years, you will see the skywests and the republics operating a320s and 737s. Europe's RyanAir 737 FO make 27,000/year

there will only be a pilot shortage at those levels
 
rudder said:
Yes, 2 hugely successful commercial airliners.....not.

The biggest mistake in the restructuring would be to allow the same a$$clowns that made those type of fleet decisions to be responsible for developing the new strategic plan.
Click to expand...

I don't think te E190 or CRJ 900 was around back then. I think most of us here would like to see 86 seat aircraft flown by mainline. I think it should be 70 seats or greater, but that's just my opinion. I really don't care what aircraft the companies buy, as long as we stop shrinking mainline carrier jobs and replacing them with regional aircraft and wages.

Sadly, I suspect many pilots starting out now, no longer view flying for a major as a smart choice. Not when they can have better seniority flying for a regional and have their equipment and salaries grow at a slower pace. But with the leverage of turning the industry in a domestic/regional vs major/international environment. Come on 12 DEC, hurry up already!
 
ALGFLYR said:
So do you think the pilots can come out of BK with pay raises and contract improvments??
Click to expand...
You choose not to accept responsibility for the fact that USAirways could've had a post-BK-improved contract in 2007. The East squandered it during their tantrum and the rest of the industry noticed.
 

Share this page

Latest posts

Latest resources

Latest media

Carbon Cub FX-3 Shenandoah Valley
Carbon Cub at Kittyhawk
FX-3 in the backcountry
IFR Panel in a Carbon Cub FX-3
Cub-Provo-UT-c.jpg
Back
Top Bottom