NJA size

[BentOver]

Have you heard of RJ's?

That's what happens when you give up scope and outsource your job.

It's pretty apparent G4 is more clueless about aviation history than approximately 3000 other NJA pilots... May possibly be almost as clueless as NOE/EYER/HANSELL and the rest in Bridgeway.

I really question his decision making sanity when it comes to captaining an aircraft. Especially if his thought process runs along the same lines as his scope ideas.

 

[gret]

It's pretty apparent G4 is more clueless about aviation history than approximately 3000 other NJA pilots... May possibly be almost as clueless as NOE/EYER/HANSELL and the rest in Bridgeway.

I really question his decision making sanity when it comes to captaining an aircraft. Especially if his thought process runs along the same lines as his scope ideas.

Because he has a different view?

Opinions are opinions and he has his and you have yours...so what?

 

[BentOver]

He is weak and wiling to throw those junior to him under the bus.... I know the type and so do 99.9% of the rest of NJA pilots who have been around this song and dance before.

It's not that he has a different opinion, it's that his opinion is contrary to again, 99.9% of the rest. And that he voices his opinion about it on an anonymous board. (I doubt he has voiced this same opinion with as much conviction on the union board.)

I welcome him to go to the "emloyment section" of the union board. When he gets there there will be a thread discussing this topic amongst furloughed and current pilots.

 

[G4dude]

He is weak and wiling to throw those junior to him under the bus.... I know the type and so do 99.9% of the rest of NJA pilots who have been around this song and dance before.

It's not that he has a different opinion, it's that his opinion is contrary to again, 99.9% of the rest. And that he voices his opinion about it on an anonymous board. (I doubt he has voiced this same opinion with as much conviction on the union board.)

I welcome him to go to the "emloyment section" of the union board. When he gets there there will be a thread discussing this topic amongst furloughed and current pilots.

You are right, Bent. I would never post my comments on a board which is not anonymous, because I would be personally attacked. That doesn't mean my comments are dishonest. By the way, almost all of the NJI crowd agrees with me. So maybe I am not as flaky as the union crazies think. If y'all ever strike, there will be a LOT of scabs.

 

[G4dude]

He is weak and wiling to throw those junior to him under the bus.... I know the type and so do 99.9% of the rest of NJA pilots who have been around this song and dance before.

It's not that he has a different opinion, it's that his opinion is contrary to again, 99.9% of the rest. And that he voices his opinion about it on an anonymous board. (I doubt he has voiced this same opinion with as much conviction on the union board.)

I welcome him to go to the "emloyment section" of the union board. When he gets there there will be a thread discussing this topic amongst furloughed and current pilots.

It is people with views like yours that throw us all under the bus by rendering our company noncompetitive, rendering us all unemployed, especially in a weak economy. In my opinion, and almost all of those with whom I fly.

 

[brokeflyer]

ok g4, do you understand without your union protecting you, you would be furloughed RIGHT NOW.

 

[G4dude]

ok g4, do you understand without your union protecting you, you would be furloughed RIGHT NOW.

Really? Details?

 

[brokeflyer]

you really want me to just give you answer? this isnt a pro union comment either. Think about what i said and get back to me.

i know you dont want anyone to know who you are, but where is a ball park figure of your seniority and ill try to explain it you.

 

[jtf]

Management says NJA is making money, yet they still want concessions. If their decisions start coming back to haunt them and the company starts losing money again, furlough my butt, but I will actively do what must be done to discourage them from further attacking the contract. If I have to go somewhere else to fly or do a different career, then so be it. But I will not stab my brothers in the back and let management make this job not worth having. If the economy continues to suck and the company needs to shrink some more, I can accept that. What I can't accept is giving up what has been fought for and then getting furloughed anyway.

 

[brokeflyer]

management needs to take the pay cuts and concessions....the pilots dont have anything left to give away.

 

[G4dude]

Management says NJA is making money, yet they still want concessions. If their decisions start coming back to haunt them and the company starts losing money again, furlough my butt, but I will actively do what must be done to discourage them from further attacking the contract. If I have to go somewhere else to fly or do a different career, then so be it. But I will not stab my brothers in the back and let management make this job not worth having. If the economy continues to suck and the company needs to shrink some more, I can accept that. What I can't accept is giving up what has been fought for and then getting furloughed anyway.

The company position on scope seems moderate and reasonable to me and my buds at the former NJI, who view the union communiques with some hilarity. Those 411 messages are really funny!

 

[G4dude]

management needs to take the pay cuts and concessions....the pilots dont have anything left to give away.

Yeah, we have an industry leading contract, but we pilots are broke and discouraged. This is tragic...tragic, I tell you!

 

[jtf]

Those "moderate" contact demands on scope will allow the company to shrink the current NJA workforce and put more flying with others. It is almost exactly like what happened to the major airlines when they allowed the regionals to start flying the rj's. Eventually the regionals took about half the flights and the majors took half the pay. We gave up more money to get this scope and to get you nonunionized G drivers into the union with us so that the company couldn't shrink us and give you more of the flying using new smaller airplanes. Of course you side with the company- they really never actively screwed you and your position is relatively protected. I doubt anyone will be able to change your mind unless the company is able to really get what they want and you watch a bunch of your friends get furloughed as they shrink the operation down and do the flying with EJA. Like I said before, if we shrink and EJA isn't taking over the flying, I'm ok if it's due to the economy, but if they shrink us to grow outside the union, you will get to learn the hard way what happens to everyone's pay and benefits once the concessions begin to pile up. At least the majority here is willing to learn from history to avoid the same old mistakes.

 

[G4dude]

Those "moderate" contact demands on scope will allow the company to shrink the current NJA workforce and put more flying with others. It is almost exactly like what happened to the major airlines when they allowed the regionals to start flying the rj's. Eventually the regionals took about half the flights and the majors took half the pay. We gave up more money to get this scope and to get you nonunionized G drivers into the union with us so that the company couldn't shrink us and give you more of the flying using new smaller airplanes. Of course you side with the company- they really never actively screwed you and your position is relatively protected. I doubt anyone will be able to change your mind unless the company is able to really get what they want and you watch a bunch of your friends get furloughed as they shrink the operation down and do the flying with EJA. Like I said before, if we shrink and EJA isn't taking over the flying, I'm ok if it's due to the economy, but if they shrink us to grow outside the union, you will get to learn the hard way what happens to everyone's pay and benefits once the concessions begin to pile up. At least the majority here is willing to learn from history to avoid the same old mistakes.

It seems to me the Union is saying that NJA is purposely being shrunken in order to shift flying to EJM. I believe we are shrinking due to the shrinking fractional market caused by the weakening economy. I want you and I to have a healthy company to fly for. The union leadership is wrong, in my opinion, and breathtakingly so, as usual. If they allowed you to be happy with the company, what would you need the Union "leaders" for? Those "leaders" certainly don't "lead" me and my friends at the former NJI. We were just fine before we were forced to join the union.

 

[G4dude]

Those "moderate" contact demands on scope will allow the company to shrink the current NJA workforce and put more flying with others. It is almost exactly like what happened to the major airlines when they allowed the regionals to start flying the rj's. Eventually the regionals took about half the flights and the majors took half the pay. We gave up more money to get this scope and to get you nonunionized G drivers into the union with us so that the company couldn't shrink us and give you more of the flying using new smaller airplanes. Of course you side with the company- they really never actively screwed you and your position is relatively protected. I doubt anyone will be able to change your mind unless the company is able to really get what they want and you watch a bunch of your friends get furloughed as they shrink the operation down and do the flying with EJA. Like I said before, if we shrink and EJA isn't taking over the flying, I'm ok if it's due to the economy, but if they shrink us to grow outside the union, you will get to learn the hard way what happens to everyone's pay and benefits once the concessions begin to pile up. At least the majority here is willing to learn from history to avoid the same old mistakes.

Including us in the union was altruistic? What a laugh. It was a naked power play. Now y'all are stuck with several hundred conservative anti-union pilots who think Luthi is an idiot.

 

[CA1900]

The company position on scope seems moderate and reasonable to me and my buds at the former NJI...

I could not disagree more with this. Their position on scope would immediately shrink our company for the benefit of contractors, and put hundreds more of your coworkers (including some of your former NJI friends) out of a job.

It seems to me the Union is saying that NJA is purposely being shrunken in order to shift flying to EJM. I believe we are shrinking due to the shrinking fractional market...

If that's the case, then the company would have no reason to outsource flying demand that doesn't exist.

Those "leaders" certainly don't "lead" me and my friends at the former NJI. We were just fine before we were forced to join the union.

And when the Gulfstreams are eventually removed from the fleet in favor of the new Global Express aircraft, you'd be out of a job had the union not pressed for integration.

 

[G4dude]

Thanks for that intelligent post, CA1900. However, you said, "If that's the case, then the company would have no reason to outsource flying demand that doesn't exist." The demand for overflow flights DOES exist in spurts, which are, in my opinion, not adequately allowed for by the contract. I don't feel contrarian, I just agree with the company on this issue. There are things that could be improved at NJA, things which union guys and gals might agree with, but this is not one of them. I am enjoying this discussion, though. Although Fisch and Bent do get a little testy...

 

[G4dude]

This was said, "And when the Gulfstreams are eventually removed from the fleet in favor of the new Global Express aircraft, you'd be out of a job had the union not pressed for integration."

if the Gulfstreams go away, I will be happy to fly whatever else we have with wings. Might be nice to avoid the jet lag! I would miss the flight attendants though, they are good social directors during layovers.

 

[fischman]

Thanks for that intelligent post, CA1900. However, you said, "If that's the case, then the company would have no reason to outsource flying demand that doesn't exist." The demand for overflow flights DOES exist in spurts, which are, in my opinion, not adequately allowed for by the contract. I don't feel contrarian, I just agree with the company on this issue. There are things that could be improved at NJA, things which union guys and gals might agree with, but this is not one of them. I am enjoying this discussion, though. Although Fisch and Bent do get a little testy...

poke poke...

Yeah, I don't like it when people volunteer to weaken my hard fought CBA, take food off my table, and take the roof off of my children's heads.

 

[CA1900]

This was said, "And when the Gulfstreams are eventually removed from the fleet in favor of the new Global Express aircraft, you'd be out of a job had the union not pressed for integration."

if the Gulfstreams go away, I will be happy to fly whatever else we have with wings.

My point was that, had we not pushed for integration, you wouldn't have that opportunity. Our contract with the company encompassed all flying other than the large Gulfstream aircraft, which would have put you out of work when those aircraft went away.

 

[G4dude]

poke poke...

Yeah, I don't like it when people volunteer to weaken my hard fought CBA, take food off my table, and take the roof off of my children's heads.

I am just very worried about the long term viability of our employer. I don't want to starve widows and orphans.

 

[G4dude]

My point was that, had we not pushed for integration, you wouldn't have that opportunity. Our contract with the company encompassed all flying other than the large Gulfstream aircraft, which would have put you out of work when those aircraft went away.

My understanding of the integration process and who wanted what is different. If you are correct, then thanks, I stand corrected. I do know the Union Crazies wanted to staple us to the bottom. You are obviously not one of them, thank goodness.

 

[CA1900]

No, I'm not, and I think you'll find most of us aren't. My feeling is that we've always been one company, and should never have been separate groups.

 

[G4dude]

poke poke...

Yeah, I don't like it when people volunteer to weaken my hard fought CBA, take food off my table, and take the roof off of my children's heads.

My understanding about the scope issue doesn't lead me to the same alarming conclusions. If it did, I would agree with you. The company's position on scope seems to be reasonable, that's all. I am not alone by any means at the former NJI, by the way. That doesn't mean I am right, but it does mean I am not some lone kook on the fringe, as has been suggested a few times.

 

[G4dude]

No, I'm not, and I think you'll find most of us aren't. My feeling is that we've always been one company, and should never have been separate groups.

That would be another excellent discussion. I do have a question though. I did NOT hire on with EJA because their pay was subpar, and DID hire on with EJI because their pay was good. Why did people hire on with EJA and then begin complaining about compensation? There may be a good answer, but I am mystified as to what it would be.

 

[Willy21]

My understanding about the scope issue doesn't lead me to the same alarming conclusions. If it did, I would agree with you. The company's position on scope seems to be reasonable, that's all. I am not alone by any means at the former NJI, by the way. That doesn't mean I am right, but it does mean I am not some lone kook on the fringe, as has been suggested a few times.

With 11 years of seniority it might not alarm you now. I have just over 5 years and any movement on scope scares the hell out of me. Maybe if I trusted management it would be different, but I don't. All I have seen out of them is threats. This is the view of scope from my end of the list.

 

[imacdog]

My understanding about the scope issue doesn't lead me to the same alarming conclusions. If it did, I would agree with you. The company's position on scope seems to be reasonable, that's all. I am not alone by any means at the former NJI, by the way. That doesn't mean I am right, but it does mean I am not some lone kook on the fringe, as has been suggested a few times.

If you didn't become alarmed by the company's proposal then it means you didn't read it. The proposal allowed a significant increase in outsourced flying, and the penalty if the company exceeded the limit amounted to chicken scratch. Yeah what a brilliant proposal, I'm shocked it wasn't put out to the pilot group for a vote. That's okay though, the union will represent the ignorant just as they would any other dues paying member.

 

[BentOver]

And a bit more irony......The pilots that would be most harmed by any scope relief would NOT benefit from even the chicken scratch.. Because they would be furloughed.

 

[jtf]

My understanding about the scope issue doesn't lead me to the same alarming conclusions. If it did, I would agree with you. The company's position on scope seems to be reasonable, that's all. I am not alone by any means at the former NJI, by the way. That doesn't mean I am right, but it does mean I am not some lone kook on the fringe, as has been suggested a few times.

We are trying to give you a better idea of the importance of scope. Many here have experienced exactly what happens when scope starts getting whittled away. It always starts small and then builds. The regional airlines doing half the flights or more under the name of the major airlines and foreign airlines doing "code shares" that literally replace the international flights that the major used to do are exactly what giving up scope has done to the airlines. We aren't an airline, but even giving just a little away will allow the company to get rid of more airplanes (core fleet) and have the flying done by outside airplanes and pilots (mostly EJM, but not all with them and inside the companies umbrella). If we have a smaller core fleet we will need fewer pilots. While the company will promise they won't furlough any more pilots, they will insist on some contractual wording that will let them get around their promise. That is exactly what happened at the airlines also.

Giving up a little sell-off scope will allow for the majority of flying to still get done under the BK umbrella, but it will still be other pilots who are most likely making less money and most likely won't be furloughed pilots from NJA who even get the jobs. Allowing more sell-off also hurts the NetJets brand. Ask the the owners how they feel about sell-offs. Quite a few are angry enough that it is in their profile that they won't accept any sell-offs. If the number of sell-offs goes up- the number of PO'd customers also goes up. That is not a good recipe for owner retention or owner referrals. It is a good recipe for increased short term profits, but forsaking long term health for short term gains is one of the main reasons the economy is in the pooper to begin with.

And as far as how the current scope limits the company, it doesn't stop them from any sell-offs. It just costs them if they go over the 11 days per quarter while we have pilots on furlough. From my understanding, they would have to recall about 40 pilots if they do the amount of sell-offs they are forecasting for the busy season. I'm sure they would then refurlough them and it would definitely have some cost involved, but is that cost less than pissing off a bunch of the customers to the point that they are willing to leave the program? Our elected leaders used their knowledge of past scope issues to do their best to protect the pilots under their watch while also providing the the company the ability to do what is right for the customers should the need arise, albeit at a cost.

 

[BentOver]

And as far as how the current scope limits the company, it doesn't stop them from any sell-offs. It just costs them if they go over the 11 days per quarter while we have pilots on furlough. From my understanding, they would have to recall about 40 pilots if they do the amount of sell-offs they are forecasting for the busy season. I'm sure they would then refurlough them and it would definitely have some cost involved, but is that cost less than pissing off a bunch of the customers to the point that they are willing to leave the program? Our elected leaders used their knowledge of past scope issues to do their best to protect the pilots under their watch while also providing the the company the ability to do what is right for the customers should the need arise, albeit at a cost.

And this is very important.. The contract does not limit subcontracting what-so-ever. They can sell-off as much as they want. But after sell-offs on the 12 day, they must call back a certain % based on the number of sell-offs vs. the number of revenue flights for that quarter.

Like 1900 stated, based on forecasts, if 4QT planned sell-offs are stretched out more than 11 days, then NJA has 120 days to initate a recall. However I am pretty sure they would furlough more pilots within the 120 dyas just to recall them. And also based on the forecast, that would be about 35-40 pilots.

As far as this quarter, I am pretty posive the vast majority of the sell-offs will occur over a 4 or 5 day period. (Turkey day and X-mas time). I highly doubt they will be very close to 11 days.

However, 1Qt2010 had 10 sell-off days that would have resulted in close to 90 pilots if they would have gone to 12 days. If I recall, the days NJA was selling off flights, they would sell-off much more than 50 a day. Probably average close to 75 or so. (I used to have the exact numbers)

So low and behold, sell-offs are once again becoming an issue for management (like they will avery 6 months), and once again they want scope relief. They want to avoid call-backs. (and shrink the company at the same time)

I personally believe it is nothing more than threats. And also believe that the company is not hurting enough financially to garner and type of concession. I'm pretty sure we'd start hearing about potential NJA bankruptcy from someone somewhere long before it would happen. There are enough people that follow WB and BHK religiously that would catch wind of a potential NJA demise.