NJA size

[KiddDynomite]

It's absolutely realistic when you see the efficiencies of a single schedule. This company has never truly tried to maximize efficiency. How many times does a 7/7 guy go out with a 18-day or 15-day guy and mid tour there's an airline and a plane ends up sitting because of lack of crew. Start and stop together. The airline savings alone would be enormours because the company could better predict our travel patterns and work better deals with the airlines. Crew scheduling would be vastly improved because then you can actually have a realisitic fatigue program and have morning, afternoon, night crews and fewer backup crews needed. As G4dude said we're in the pay range now it's time to shuffle the shells. One other thing, 7/7 for all would mean better vacation scheduling. I personally want to see quarterly bidding with concurrent vacation bidding. I'm tired of trying to plan a year out. I think it's all reasonable and affordable. It's about effiency.

jtf, I forgot to mention and really answer your question. Back in '05 there was talk of a single schedule and the 18 pay figure being the number. The company pushed for 3 different schedules hoping that they can get more guys on the 18 day and maximize crew days. Their hope was more guys on the 18 day meant fewer pilots to hire. Even though it was 20% more pay the cost saving between health benefits and 401K with fewer pilots are enormous. The problem is the operational ineffieciences actually wipe them out, that's why I think it's completely reasonable.

 

[G4dude]

Fantastic, looking forward to you voluntarily taking a pay cut to help the company out.

How childish. By the way, I DID offer to take a pay cut, to minimize the furloughs. Management said it wouldn't help, because we were simply overstaffed.

 

[imacdog]

It's not childish. Either you think getting paid more than other fractionals hurts the business or you don't. Are you going to offer to not take your next yearly pay increase to help out the business? I didn't think so.

 

[G4dude]

It's not childish. Either you think getting paid more than other fractionals hurts the business or you don't. Are you going to offer to not take your next yearly pay increase to help out the business? I didn't think so.

That's what I am offering.

 

[imacdog]

I'd be careful about that if I were you. What may amount to a nice little bump in your (and everyone's yearly) pay is a pittance compared with some of the blunders that management has made. Be proud of the services you offer as an experienced professional.

 

[rajflyboy]

True, but now that pilot pay is in the reasonable range, I don't think our competitors will follow our lead. And they will still be able to staff with good pilots. In this scenario, our competitors will have an advantage in operating cost, with no pilot proficiency disadvantage. Not good for NJA. To me, the most chilling words I can read about my employer is "industry leading contract." As the survivor of 11 layoffs, I am worried long term about NJA.

Seat Filler

 

[rajflyboy]

All you disgruntled FO's crack me up. I want to know how many of you used to turn your noses up at us because you were "airline" pilots and above us seatbelt folders? Guys like Raj and myself laid our junk on the line to get a good contract and then you weenies decide to come over with nothing invested. Now you have the gall to complain that you need raises and career wages. Here's some food for thought; first NJA was never concieved to be a career, times changed and we made it one. Guess what times changed again and the money is no longer out there. This company is in shrink mode and EJM is growing. Do you guys think you're going to get more when the company can shift flying over there? We're going to be lucky to keep what we have. I for one will stand my ground and never take a concession but I can sure bet there won't be much of a raise if any. Get a grip and read the writing on the wall!

Ditto

 

[rajflyboy]

I think compensation is about as high as it will ever get. Any higher, and competitors will be able to staff with equally qualified pilots at dramatically lower compensation levels, rendering NJA uncompetitive in the marketplace. Like Delta and Airtran.

Thats very true for the G Wiz.

 

[G4dude]

I'd be careful about that if I were you. What may amount to a nice little bump in your (and everyone's yearly) pay is a pittance compared with some of the blunders that management has made. Be proud of the services you offer as an experienced professional.

I am proud, I just want my company to stay in business until I retire.

 

[G4dude]

I'd be careful about that if I were you. What may amount to a nice little bump in your (and everyone's yearly) pay is a pittance compared with some of the blunders that management has made. Be proud of the services you offer as an experienced professional.

I must say, this is typical union class warfare nonsense.

 

[imacdog]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Management has recently made decisions costing the company far more than the menial yearly pay increases for its employees.

 

[kman]

Just wondering G4dude, do you think our pay has kept up with inflation?

What about 400 ish co-pilots that are going to top out at year 10 pay and with no future raises or upgrade in sight?

 

[G4dude]

Just wondering G4dude, do you think our pay has kept up with inflation?

What about 400 ish co-pilots that are going to top out at year 10 pay and with no future raises or upgrade in sight?

Good questions. My point is, the job market is so bad, there are many very good pilots who would fly for half what we make, which puts NJA at a competitive advantage. This has nothing to do with what I or you think we are worth, this is about the iron laws of the marketplace.

 

[BentOver]

Just wondering G4dude, do you think our pay has kept up with inflation?

What about 400 ish co-pilots that are going to top out at year 10 pay and with no future raises or upgrade in sight?

Exactly the reason I think as long as there is a place for them to go attrition will only increase....Maybe not in 2012 or even 2013, but eventually something will give, and when it comes between staying at NJA OR jumping to a Delta, SWA, JB etc I think you'll see alot jump ship. Same with the 495. They are already predicting pretty big bypasses if/when recalls happen:laugh:......

For those who want to make well into six figures flying or be captains somewhere, those guys will be the ones who leave. Some like myself only care about the homebasing/free medical and making a comfortable living to be able to venture into other things outside of aviation. etc. Guys like me will go back. Won't be the same type of employee as before, but will go back.

Slowly increasing sales beyond 2011/2012 and attrition will be the leading factor in recalls. We don't need an explosion in sales, just an end to shrinkage and some actual growth.

 

[T-1GUY]

I would not agree with your assumption of the aviation job market. While the economy overall is slow, aviation jobs hit the bottom over a year or two ago. We are in the very beginning of quite a hiring spree for qualified pilots. ALL of the schools are hiring or have been hiring SIM instructors to name a few here locally in the DFW area: AA, Southwest, Flight Safety, CAE Simuflite. This is just one leading indicator of hiring. Fedex, Jet blue, Alaska, Southwest, and soon to be AA and Delta are in hire mode. AA has been recalling and only getting a 10% return of former pilots. The 350 pilots that retired at AA in the last two months alone will trigger massive training requirements. (I have heard nine training events for every senior pilot retired). We haven't even seen the implications of age 65 retirements yet. All the other fractionals are either recalling or hiring.

The question will be whether Netjet's wants to keep FO's around who are qualified to apply to other jobs.

I think this can be one of the best times I have seen in aviation hiring in the past decade easily.

Time will tell...

 

[gunfyter]

T-1Guy

So now its you, me, and YIPPilot predicting the great pilot shortage is about to arrive

 

[G4dude]

T-1Guy

So now its you, me, and YIPPilot predicting the great pilot shortage is about to arrive

Add me to the list. But the discussion about salaries in general (at NJA) involve my concern about our ability to compete, which is not affected by shortages or feelings about how much a pilot is worth. If a competitor can staff planes with perfectly adequate pilots for 60 percent of what we pay, we are in a competitive disadvantage, which is a bad thing.

 

[BentOver]

Hey I'm all for getting the hiring started.....

But a 140 jobs at SWA, some hiring at JB, Delta cutting capacity and AA going through what they're going through, is not the type of hiring I'm talking about..

I'm talking about each and every company hiring 30 a month for years. That's the type of hiring I want to see. SWA looking for 140 is not gonna cut it. JB keeping their app window open for 10 days is not gonna cut it. When JB, SWA, Alaska etc. have their application windows open indefinitely, along with Delta, AA, UniCal, then I'll agree 100%..

Also I agree that the leading tell-tale sign is FSI, SIM, CAE hiring. But one or two centers in DFW does not equate to a hiring spree there either. If you look at FSI they have maybe 2 instructor openings right now. That's not alot. FSI CMH was looking for a bunch last year, but that was only due to some attrition and will soon be due to a new type (Global) coming soon.

Hiring is gonna ramp up, but I completely disagree that it has already started. From 1 of the 495 qualified guys, I can tell you we're not there yet. But hopefully in 2012/13 we will be. definitely can't fault your posive attitude though.

If only Luthi would have the same positive attitude!!

 

[wacoflyr]

T-1Guy

So now its you, me, and YIPPilot predicting the great pilot shortage is about to arrive

Yup, I agree. And it is not just the age 65 business. The kids can't get a bank to float them a six figure loan for the pilot mills. Both supply and demand are taking hits.

 

[VGerect]

Some like myself only care about the homebasing/free medical and making a comfortable living to be able to venture into other things outside of aviation. etc. Guys like me will go back. Won't be the same type of employee as before, but will go back.

Amen brother !
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