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[Pervis]

G4, why don't you seek insight from the union board, rather than a public sight? Yea, you may get hammered by a few, as do I, but you will get far more insight and background there when you ask direct questions that should not be shared in public. Those of us from the "A" side don't suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, although I will admit your "captor" was far more generous with you than with us until a short time ago.

 

[BentOver]

G4, why don't you seek insight from the union board, rather than a public sight? Yea, you may get hammered by a few, as do I, but you will get far more insight and background there when you ask direct questions that should not be shared in public. Those of us from the "A" side don't suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, although I will admit your "captor" was far more generous with you than with us until a short time ago.

All I can say is getting hammered is a self-inflicted pain. Your case and G4's.... I doubt he really expected his view to be popular. Hence keeping it anonymuous. I can be harsh, especially with a topic who's outcome is painfully obvious.

If I had to guess I'd say he faces less ridicule here than he would over at NAJSAP. Unfortunately your indiscretion was both easy to discover and pretty public in the NJA world.

 

[Pervis]

What indescretion would that be Bent? Extending in early 2004 when we all did, before we knew what 284 and the fab 5 had in store for us? Or would it be a situation experienced last December, when a current high level E board member was in complete agreement with my decision? Go ahead and make it public right here, and post your real name with it. I'll be glad to post mine in return, as I have posted both names on the union site, as well as the furloughed pilot's site.

I simply invite G4 to engage in a civil debate on the private site, while you throw inuendo on this site. I don't imply agreement or disagreement with his view point in this matter. I do believe with more knowledge, G4 will understand the difference of opinion many share. It's hard to transition from golden child to 'E Pluribus Unum'. And I don't mean that in an unpleasant way.

 

[G4dude]

G4, why don't you seek insight from the union board, rather than a public sight? Yea, you may get hammered by a few, as do I, but you will get far more insight and background there when you ask direct questions that should not be shared in public. Those of us from the "A" side don't suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, although I will admit your "captor" was far more generous with you than with us until a short time ago.

Good question. I tried the union message board, and the experience quickly became personal and unpleasant. I am not a tough guy, and conflict bothers me a lot, so I don't visit there any more. Some of the more unpleasant pilots are senior to me, and I don't want my career to be harmed. I just want to fly and have fun and discuss issues with other pilots from time to time. If this board was not anonymous, I would never spend time here, it would be unenjoyable. Not everyone here is as nice as you are.

 

[G4dude]

All I can say is getting hammered is a self-inflicted pain. Your case and G4's.... I doubt he really expected his view to be popular. Hence keeping it anonymuous. I can be harsh, especially with a topic who's outcome is painfully obvious.

If I had to guess I'd say he faces less ridicule here than he would over at NAJSAP. Unfortunately your indiscretion was both easy to discover and pretty public in the NJA world.

Pervis, I see you have enjoyed the ministrations of some of our nastier colleagues. My condolences. Bent, shame on you.

 

[BentOver]

What's contractually correct and what is morally correct are two different things. I assume you do realize that no E-board member will ever tell you you can't do something that is a contractual right. And I also assume you know how "litigation protective" the E-board is, so under no circumstances EVER would they tell you not to extend.

On the same token, and it may just be a coincidence, there have been several occasions when discussing extended days -board members have ended their posts with a " For the record,I have not extended..."

And finally, I never stated what you had or had not done..... It's up to you if you feel it was an indescretion or not.

The issue is not about your December decisions, I was referring to you telling G4 he may get hammered by a few...... I would think staying here to voice his opinion is probably more prudent than going to the NJASAP site.... I highly doubt his opinion would be very popular over there.

Which reminds me, I wonder what the stance is on extended days this year?

 

[BentOver]

Good question. I tried the union message board, and the experience quickly became personal and unpleasant. I am not a tough guy, and conflict bothers me a lot, so I don't visit there any more. Some of the more unpleasant pilots are senior to me, and I don't want my career to be harmed. I just want to fly and have fun and discuss issues with other pilots from time to time. If this board was not anonymous, I would never spend time here, it would be unenjoyable. Not everyone here is as nice as you are.

My point exactly.. Although I don't know what would matter if they were senior to you or not? It's just a number, they don't become god of the cockpit because they were hired earlier.

 

[G4dude]

And this is very important.. The contract does not limit subcontracting what-so-ever. They can sell-off as much as they want. But after sell-offs on the 12 day, they must call back a certain % based on the number of sell-offs vs. the number of revenue flights for that quarter.

Like 1900 stated, based on forecasts, if 4QT planned sell-offs are stretched out more than 11 days, then NJA has 120 days to initate a recall. However I am pretty sure they would furlough more pilots within the 120 dyas just to recall them. And also based on the forecast, that would be about 35-40 pilots.

As far as this quarter, I am pretty posive the vast majority of the sell-offs will occur over a 4 or 5 day period. (Turkey day and X-mas time). I highly doubt they will be very close to 11 days.

However, 1Qt2010 had 10 sell-off days that would have resulted in close to 90 pilots if they would have gone to 12 days. If I recall, the days NJA was selling off flights, they would sell-off much more than 50 a day. Probably average close to 75 or so. (I used to have the exact numbers)

So low and behold, sell-offs are once again becoming an issue for management (like they will avery 6 months), and once again they want scope relief. They want to avoid call-backs. (and shrink the company at the same time)

I personally believe it is nothing more than threats. And also believe that the company is not hurting enough financially to garner and type of concession. I'm pretty sure we'd start hearing about potential NJA bankruptcy from someone somewhere long before it would happen. There are enough people that follow WB and BHK religiously that would catch wind of a potential NJA demise.

JTF and Bent, good posts. In my opinion, however, pilots will be harmed more by NJA losing on Scope (because of financial damage to the company) than pilots will be harmed by an easing of Scope. I understand your positions, I just feel what the union wants puts our jobs in more peril than the lack of scope does.

 

[G4dude]

My point exactly.. Although I don't know what would matter if they were senior to you or not? It's just a number, they don't become god of the cockpit because they were hired earlier.

They could end up managers or something, who knows? Flying with them could become unpleasant, and I have had quite enough unpleasantness in my life and career to last several lifetimes.

 

[BentOver]

JTF and Bent, good posts. In my opinion, however, pilots will be harmed more by NJA losing on Scope (because of financial damage to the company) than pilots will be harmed by an easing of Scope. I understand your positions, I just feel what the union wants puts our jobs in more peril than the lack of scope does.

NJA does not want to deteriorate scope because it is too costly to the company. They want to deteriorate scope to have less planes and pilots on the NJA (vs. EJM) side of the company. Meaning less jobs at NJA. NJA is not going to fold because of the scope language. Management has found another way to squeze more money out of NJA but unfortunatley it will cost jobs. No different than car manufacturers sending work to Mexico.

If management had their way they could basically staff for no more than necessary to cover the slowest days, and farm out everything else...

Giving in on scope has never benefitted the pilots at the primary company...... And since you work at the primary company, it will not benefit you. All you will see is a flights your company should have been doing, being done by another companies pilots and planes..

Netjets was formed to be a fractional. EJM's purpose was not meant to fly fractional owners. (I understand the history of EJM, it's name and that Netjets used to be called executive jet. My point is an owner doesn't buy a fraction only to be flown by another companies a/c.)

It can not be said enough. This scope BS is not going to be the demise of Netjets... Management's 10 year plan could not and would not hinge on NJASAP giving in on 1.5.4(c).. it's just one more way for them to squeeze out $$. And they don't order billions of dollars of planes and then say that every delivery is based on 1.5.4(c) being relaxed.

EDIT: changed the original direction of my post.

 

[G4dude]

That would have to fall under a cost analysis..... and what managment decided to do.Furlough active guys before, then recalling them OR just recalling from the current furloughed list...

If they furloughed some guys first, they would owe them 2 months of pay and benefits.. Then upon recall they may have to pay for training on a different a/c maybe?? Two months of pay is probably about$15K or so. And then whatever costs are to train at FSI..

If they decided to flat out suck it up and recall some of the 495, they would definitely face the costs of Indoc, FSI, IOE etc....

My opinion is that even if these costs are in the $40K range for a recall. That is definitely less of a burdon than farming out the flying to an outside vendor..

I don't have numbers BUT what is the value of even 1 owner getting pissed and leaving (because of avoidable subcontracting) VS. incurring a $40K cost/pilot for a recall.

I would think that a multi million diollar contract is costlier in the end...

Hmmm. Good info, but I suspect management knows the comparative costs. Interesting thoughts, though.

 

[BentOver]

I understand your intent on having the company be as financially viable as possible.(I am not a Union crazy, I feel they have their agendas too) Unfortunately I feel you are missing the big picture on what giving in on scope will truly mean for the current pilots at Netjets. It is a transferring of flying away from Netjets and giving it to someone else.

If anything I think the current language is too lax. At the moment they can sell-off an unlimited amount on 11 days scott free. 11 days is more than 12% of a fiscal quarter. So on 12% of the year NJA can sell-off an unlimited number of flights. That is more than adequate to cover the busiest time like Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Presidents day weekends etc...

 

[BentOver]

Hmmm. Good info, but I suspect management knows the comparative costs. Interesting thoughts, though.

The costs are the easy thing to put a finger on. What management (nor pilots) can quantify is the costs on the owners in terms of how many times will an owner be sold off until he/she says this place isn't worth the $$. Getting put on a brokered flight is no different than going out and flying charter....In the end, why not just charter a flight if your gonna be put on one.

Luckily the pilots are out there every day mixing it up with the owners. We, as pilots, see what the owners generally like and dislike. Sometimes the owners tell us, sometimes we can see it in their faces. We see what some of the catering orders look like, we see if an owner is upset if their car isn't at an FBO, the car is wrong etc.. It's stuff managment cannot see.

Typical for management, they see nothing but numbers and charts and think everything is great. They don't see the differences in a Netjets crew in an FBO vs. some mom and pop outfit NJA has hired to do some flying.

 

[gutshotdraw]

G4, why don't you seek insight from the union board, rather than a public sight? Yea, you may get hammered by a few, as do I, but you will get far more insight and background there when you ask direct questions that should not be shared in public. Those of us from the "A" side don't suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, although I will admit your "captor" was far more generous with you than with us until a short time ago.

You're kidding, right? Hammered by a few? ANYONE that expresses an opinion on that board that isn't 100% pro-union dogma is DESTROYED unmercifully.

It doesn't matter how well-reasoned or sincere the viewpoint. The merits of the argument are totally dismissed and the politics of personal destruction, derision, and name-calling begin. A civil disagreement over important issues is IMPOSSIBLE and more poo gets flung than by 100 crack-addicted monkeys at the San Diego Zoo.

This site is much the same although the presence of outsiders somewhat tempers the discussion.

In my best Andy Rooney imitation: "Ever notice how few people actually post on the message board anymore? Maybe it's because they're sick of being called stupid by people that don't know the difference between to, too, and two just because they have a different opinion..."

 

[gret]

You're kidding, right? Hammered by a few? ANYONE that expresses an opinion on that board that isn't 100% pro-union dogma is DESTROYED unmercifully.

It doesn't matter how well-reasoned or sincere the viewpoint. The merits of the argument are totally dismissed and the politics of personal destruction, derision, and name-calling begin. A civil disagreement over important issues is IMPOSSIBLE and more poo gets flung than by 100 crack-addicted monkeys at the San Diego Zoo.

This site is much the same although the presence of outsiders somewhat tempers the discussion.

In my best Andy Rooney imitation: "Ever notice how few people actually post on the message board anymore? Maybe it's because they're sick of being called stupid by people that don't know the difference between to, too, and two just because they have a different opinion..."

You're a smart man (woman)...and I mean that.

 

[G4dude]

You're kidding, right? Hammered by a few? ANYONE that expresses an opinion on that board that isn't 100% pro-union dogma is DESTROYED unmercifully.

It doesn't matter how well-reasoned or sincere the viewpoint. The merits of the argument are totally dismissed and the politics of personal destruction, derision, and name-calling begin. A civil disagreement over important issues is IMPOSSIBLE and more poo gets flung than by 100 crack-addicted monkeys at the San Diego Zoo.

This site is much the same although the presence of outsiders somewhat tempers the discussion.

In my best Andy Rooney imitation: "Ever notice how few people actually post on the message board anymore? Maybe it's because they're sick of being called stupid by people that don't know the difference between to, too, and two just because they have a different opinion..."

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I was feeling kinda outnumbered! The union guys feel they are in the vast majority mainly because we free market types avoid the personal attacks and stay off the boards, ESPECIALLY the non-anonymous ones. There are a whole lot more of us that the union people realize. So, thank you again, Gutshot.

 

[Pervis]

And finally, I never stated what you had or had not done..... It's up to you if you feel it was an indescretion or not.

A quote from your post #212-the last sentence:

"Unfortunately your indiscretion was both easy to discover and pretty public in the NJA world."

Twisting the truth is another common tactic used by some on the union boards. Most simply skim over multiple threads and miss the manipulations so common to the more aggressive attack dogs. But not because they don't pay attention. They've come to expect it.

 

[G4dude]

A quote from your post #212-the last sentence:

"Unfortunately your indiscretion was both easy to discover and pretty public in the NJA world."

Twisting the truth is another common tactic used by some on the union boards. Most simply skim over multiple threads and miss the manipulations so common to the more aggressive attack dogs. But not because they don't pay attention. They've come to expect it.

I don't think they realize how many of us wouldn't dream of spending time on the ASAP board, because it is too unpleasant. Differences are not treated as honest, but as attacks on the Working Class, per Karl Marx. I am exaggerating of course.

 

[Pervis]

Gutshot, you're right. But those attacks come from the same few and are seen by the majority for what they are. Those few hang in a tight little circle where everyone agrees with each other, and when on the road, they intimidate to the point few will disagree for fear of creating an unpleasant work environment.

A few of us stand up to the bullies, and many more silently support us. I'm not asking anyone else to join the frey, so to speak, but am asking more to stay informed with some very important decisions that are being made. The Eboard members frequently respond to questions and concerns, and do so without emotion for the most part. While I don't always agree with them, they stand apart from the more aggressive types.

 

[OPECJet]

G4, what concerns you more. A union that won't cave on concessions that will only make improvements to a member of management's image in the eyes of a senile old SOB, or a management team who will willingly deny an owner access to his aircraft in order to circumvent the scope section of the CBA?

Cry "bad economy" all you want. The other fracs seem to be selling shares and replacing aircraft while NJA isn't. In the meantime, you think giving up scope will save your job by saving the company. Stop being scared.

 

[G4dude]

G4, what concerns you more. A union that won't cave on concessions that will only make improvements to a member of management's image in the eyes of a senile old SOB, or a management team who will willingly deny an owner access to his aircraft in order to circumvent the scope section of the CBA?

Cry "bad economy" all you want. The other fracs seem to be selling shares and replacing aircraft while NJA isn't. In the meantime, you think giving up scope will save your job by saving the company. Stop being scared.

I am sorry, I am with management on this one. And I think we are entering a 4 year worldwide recession, followed by significant inflation. We better be careful how hard we push CMH.

 

[fischman]

It's okay to be wrong.

 

[OPECJet]

I am sorry, I am with management on this one. And I think we are entering a 4 year worldwide recession, followed by significant inflation. We better be careful how hard we push CMH.

No argument on the recession. I believe that will be the case as well. My problem is that rather than use the recession to secure NJA's future as whole, current management is using it as an excuse to cut what doesn't need to be cut. For the rest of your argument, I want some of what you're smoking.

 

[mtnrunner]

Blame game...

My problem is that rather than use the recession to secure NJA's future as whole, current management is using it as an excuse to cut what doesn't need to be cut.

With the exception of housing all sectors and industries top tier companies are performing exceptionally well. Even Warren says this is the case at Berkshire Hathaway. They have best of bread leaders with talented management teams. They took care of the hard stuff in 2009, and went to work focussing on the soft stuff building and looking for growth opportunities; organic growth or M&A. These top tier companies are producing top line growth and strong earnings. They don't get to blame a recession - if they do they get replaced.

A recession is a poor excuse for a leader who can't deliver. The second weakest thing I could think of is blaming the employees/unions. The weakest thing I can think of is a leader who hides - hides from employees, customers, and OEM's.

Nothing is going to get done hiding in a CMH office or board room all day and blaming your employees and customers. Blaming employees for not taking more cuts and then blaming customers for having less money to waste on 10 year old airplanes.

I would have to say in the real world the only one not blaming leadership and management - is leadership and management. That said, a lot of managers in CMH are blaming their leader.

 

[G4dude]

No argument on the recession. I believe that will be the case as well. My problem is that rather than use the recession to secure NJA's future as whole, current management is using it as an excuse to cut what doesn't need to be cut. For the rest of your argument, I want some of what you're smoking.

I do admit I advocate legalization (decriminalization) of narcotics. Another good conversation, perhaps? Cheers!

 

[G4dude]

With the exception of housing all sectors and industries top tier companies are performing exceptionally well. Even Warren says this is the case at Berkshire Hathaway. They have best of bread leaders with talented management teams. They took care of the hard stuff in 2009, and went to work focussing on the soft stuff building and looking for growth opportunities; organic growth or M&A. These top tier companies are producing top line growth and strong earnings. They don't get to blame a recession - if they do they get replaced.

A recession is a poor excuse for a leader who can't deliver. The second weakest thing I could think of is blaming the employees/unions. The weakest thing I can think of is a leader who hides - hides from employees, customers, and OEM's.

Nothing is going to get done hiding in a CMH office or board room all day and blaming your employees and customers. Blaming employees for not taking more cuts and then blaming customers for having less money to waste on 10 year old airplanes.

I would have to say in the real world the only one not blaming leadership and management - is leadership and management. That said, a lot of managers in CMH are blaming their leader.

What is the general opinion of Hansell's management performance so far? Is he planning to stay?

 

[OPECJet]

I do admit I advocate legalization (decriminalization) of narcotics. Another good conversation, perhaps? Cheers!

Given your willingness and desire to sell me out, and damage my family further, I highly doubt we'll be having many "good" conversations.

 

[BentOver]

What is the general opinion of Hansell's management performance so far? Is he planning to stay?

I'd say not a chance.. Outta of the throngs of "leaders" I've seen come and go over the last decade. Hansell is by far the worst leader. The guy is basically non-exhistant.


Sokol was probably a better leader than Hansell, but Sokol was definitely the most arrogant and detrimental to an operation. He had no clue what to do with a high end luxury business utilizing airplanes as the product.

It's sad that the two worst executives I've ever seen in aviation had to happen to NJA back to back. They made executives at regionals actually look pretty good!!

IMO Hansell will be done shortly. (by shortly I hope within 1-1.5 years. If not sooner)

 

[gutshotdraw]

Given your willingness and desire to sell me out, and damage my family further, I highly doubt we'll be having many "good" conversations.

Et voila...

 

[mtnrunner]

Don't allow management to lower your expectations...

What is the general opinion of Hansell's management performance so far? Is he planning to stay?

Keeping it performance based only:
~If he furloughs he has failed.
~If he doesn't add 2 new airplanes for every 1 airplane disposed of starting Jan 2012 he has failed.
~If he doesn't add 2 new customers for every one that leaves starting Jan 2012 he has failed.
~If he doesn't secure (at least arguably) NEW best-in-class aircraft for each category and start selling them in 2012 he has failed.
~If he doesn't sell at least 50 Globals he has failed.
~If he doesn't get 85% of share owners to 1/8 or above he has failed.
~If he can't reconstruct one of the industry's best Labor-Management relationships he has failed.
~If he doesn't get fleet and aircraft availability back up to 80+ percent he has failed to impress...

~If one aircraft burns or one person gets hurt in an incident or accident he has failed beyond imagination.

~If he can't reconstruct one of the world's best brands, with the exceptional workforce in place, he has failed.

In my opinion he has certainly failed to capture any ground up support from within the company and management ranks. Few would pop a tear if he went back to practicing law with his old man in Iowa. I don't think he will be at many BBQ's in ICT, SAV, or Paris any time soon either. He clearly isn't here to inspire.

The more an individual blames their fellow employees and buys-into management excuses (recessions and unions), then they have failed. An individual doesn't have to like unions or their peers, but everyone must demand performance from leadership and management.

Don't take the bait. Focus on the management performance, not their excuses. Warren, unions, and the pilots should only be happy to see a leader deliver on the above points. All of which are reasonable. If they have convinced you otherwise - think it over again.


I'm a simply person, I just want to see a leader that can inspire me and deliver. Thousand of pilots inspire me an deliver every day.

But in the end its all just one more opinion for the pile. Until next time.