So ASA's PBS Couldn't Build Me A Schedule...It Dumps Me On Reserve...WTF

[777forever]

For my ASA brothers, tonight was our secondary line improvement window. I am a junior captain in ORD . I took my 88 hour 15 day off relief line and MOVED DAYS TO GET WEEKENDS OFF, so that I now have a 102hr line with 14 days off. PBS can suck it. I'm voting to keep this life improving system we have at XJT.

Do all lineholders end up with weekends off at XJT? Seems like every post about the XJT system is about how someone went from a garbage hard line or garbage relief line to 14+days off including weekends off. There has to be some negative side effects of that system.

 

[enuffalready]

For my ASA brothers, tonight was our secondary line improvement window. I am a junior captain in ORD . I took my 88 hour 15 day off relief line and MOVED DAYS TO GET WEEKENDS OFF, so that I now have a 102hr line with 14 days off. PBS can suck it. I'm voting to keep this life improving system we have at XJT.

too all my EXJ brothers... I am dead last on the seniority list at ASA. Because of PBS i was able to drop all my IAD FO trips and pick up left seat 90 seat trips with weekends off. My pay has gone from $25 an hour to $102. suck it

 

[ASAFOE120]

For my ASA brothers, tonight was our secondary line improvement window. I am a junior captain in ORD . I took my 88 hour 15 day off relief line and MOVED DAYS TO GET WEEKENDS OFF, so that I now have a 102hr line with 14 days off. PBS can suck it. I'm voting to keep this life improving system we have at XJT.

Well, guess my vote will cancel your then.

Look. You cannot move days at ASA. Every day @ EV is a low coverage day. They run this place so short, that basically you have to swap trips over the same days. You may request all you want, but they dont, and wont, have to approve a thing.

Ive been here 10 years and with line bidding, I never EVER got weekends off. Tried to trade for them but denied for "low coverage" was always the result. I would get a max of 12 days off a month. PERIOD.

With PBS, I avg 15 days off, 85-90 hrs, and partial weekends off (which is what i bid for commuatability). I am also able to build large groups of days off in a row each month and split pairings. And still maximize vacation. You have to do this when bidding opens because once again, once your line is final, you cannot move days!!!! Low coverage!!!!

I know, you can do all that over there with your line bidding. Thats all we here from yall. Well, once Brad and Charlie and the boys get yall over here with us, those days will be history. Im not trying to be a wise guy dissin on your line bidding, but these fellers (including Jerry) play hardball.

And Jerry doesnt mind shifting flying over to SKW. You piss him off and see what happens. Just like when he took 4 of our 700's last time we were in negotiations resulting in downgrades. And all the flyin SKYW did out in ATL during negotiations. When was the last time a EV bird flew through SLC? Oh and, which airline furloughed? Not SKYW.

You dont place nice with Jerry, and see what happens.

Thats all i have to say, about that.

 

[Master Shake]

Look guys, I've read this thread from start to finish and that's why I posted what I was able to do. We move days around here by doing bad day/ worse day trades. That was my point. With some creativity and time, I really can improve my schedule. That's all. Seriously, I'm glad you last few guys love your PBS. But due to my intense distrust of management, I cannot in vote yes to any TA that includes PBS. So I suppose we'll all just have to wait and see how this thing plays out. Fly Safe.

 

[Nevets]

Time for a reality check here...Why do we want a single list? I wanted a single list with Delta/CMR/ASA, and I wanted a single list with Skywest...but what is the reason a single list is advantage to us as pilots and to other employee groups? Here's a hint...it ain't cheaper for the company....



I'm thinking this may be the best way to go at this time...that way BOTH sides are happy. Let's just keep the groups seperate...Most of you guys don't want PBS or 700s/900s, so it really wouldn't hurt to just stay seperate.

I get what you are saying with the one list thing but if it isn't cheaper to the company, then why are they merging us and espousing all the synergy savings to the stock investors? It's fact that they save in operating costs by consolidating us. And I know exactly why they don't one list us with Skywest. I'm just saying that from my point of view in the cockpit, I won't vote for ANY concession while they are paying for two sets of management groups.

As for keeping us separate from your shiny 700/900 jets, you can have them. We only get about a $1 less than you do anyways. Not even in close to worth your PBS system. But I wasn't talking about keeping us separate. I was talking about a joint contract with two different scheduling sections depending on what flying/aircraft you bid.

Do all lineholders end up with weekends off at XJT? Seems like every post about the XJT system is about how someone went from a garbage hard line or garbage relief line to 14+days off including weekends off. There has to be some negative side effects of that system.

The people that fly weekends are the lineholders that want to fly weekends (like me), releif lineholders, and reserves.

Well, once Brad and Charlie and the boys get yall over here with us, those days will be history. Im not trying to be a wise guy dissin on your line bidding, but these fellers (including Jerry) play hardball.

And Jerry doesnt mind shifting flying over to SKW. You piss him off and see what happens. Just like when he took 4 of our 700's last time we were in negotiations resulting in downgrades. And all the flyin SKYW did out in ATL during negotiations. When was the last time a EV bird flew through SLC? Oh and, which airline furloughed? Not SKYW.

You dont place nice with Jerry, and see what happens.

Thats all i have to say, about that.

I don't doubt JA would like to do any and all of that. He pretty much threatened to do it the first time he tried to buy XJT so I know it's in his nature. But just wanted to point out that our transition and process agreement prevents him from doing that right now. They cannot force us into a contract with your PBS. We have to vote to accept it. There is no provision for arbitration of the joint contract negotiations in the transition and process agreement. They have to operate us separate with our separate contracts and scheduling rules until we ratify a joint contract. They cannot shift any aircraft or block hours while we are two separate pilot groups. And I doubt our MEC will go for any scope that doesn't prevent aircraft from being shifted without protecting the pilots.

 

[shamrock]

Ive been here 10 years and with line bidding, I never EVER got weekends off. Tried to trade for them but denied for "low coverage" was always the result. I would get a max of 12 days off a month. PERIOD.

How did you manage that? I'm within shouting distance of 10 years here and outside of our dearly departed INT days I went a good 2.5-3 years without working a weekend or holiday unless i chose to. I also averaged probably a minimum of 13-14 days off per month (usually closer to 15 or 16) with line bidding for the last 3 years I was in the right seat and those 13-14 day off months even carried over into the first year or two i was in the left seat.

I'm not trying to be a smartarse, I'm just trying to figure out how our experiences can be so radically different.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Shamrock...aren't you bidding naps?

 

[shamrock]

Nope. I haven't ever looked but if I had to guess I'd say I'm probably a good 150 numbers away from being able to hold naps.

 

[CRJ puppy]

Just because you believe you bid correctly doesn't mean you actually did. That's like you telling everyone you are "cool". Or making up your own nickname. Have you spoken with the PBS working group. I have talked to lots of people who were in similar situation to what you described and through some discussion it was determined that it was operator fault for not fully understanding it, or for overlooking a detail. More then likely from what you described, the people below you had something else during the month like vacation or training that allowed preassigned credit and for whatever few pairing were left to be enough to build a schedule.

There is no setting in PBS that allows the computer to know who you personally are and award you crap out of spite because it thinks your a d-bag. It simply awards on logic and input from users.

Agreed!

Part of bidding "correctly" is understanding what you can realistically expect at your relative seniority in your seat and domicile with whatever other events are scheduled in that month...whether that be training, vacation, carry in trips etc etc etc. Having an unrealistic expectation given fluid company line construction parameters will always lead to unhappiness.

 

[ASAFOE120]

How did you manage that? I'm within shouting distance of 10 years here and outside of our dearly departed INT days I went a good 2.5-3 years without working a weekend or holiday unless i chose to. I also averaged probably a minimum of 13-14 days off per month (usually closer to 15 or 16) with line bidding for the last 3 years I was in the right seat and those 13-14 day off months even carried over into the first year or two i was in the left seat.

I'm not trying to be a smartarse, I'm just trying to figure out how our experiences can be so radically different.

Don't know how u got that. I was the weekend king. Thur-Sun 4 days with 12 days off. Matter of fact, with line budding I was barely above reserve. Jul 09, I was on reserve with line bidding! Of course 1/3 of us were before PBS.

 

[Noise]

Master Shake,

The one thing you need to realize about ASA is that all these guys talk hardball, just to cave for continued 1 percent raises during our past negotiations. If we get half as much participation in flying safe as compared to the outroar over some stupid name change, I would be really surprised. Sorry but you will be stuck with PBS. It is what it is. The company will not spend millions to implement a PBS system just to let it go in contract negotiations.

 

[Whydoitry]

Then there just won't be a joint contract.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Then there just won't be a joint contract.

After hearing about the negotiations progress, I think it'll take years ANYWAY. You'll be a Delta captain before this thing gets TA'd

 

[JoeMerchant]

Then there just won't be a joint contract.

Fine with me.

 

[CaribPilot]

Im sick of this bullsh*t. Reserve again but guys junior to me getting lines because they have vacation and pre-assigned credits.

Seniority MEANS NOTHING IN MY LIFE RIGHT NOW.

This is grade A horsesh*t...the green mushy kind that smells like death on fire.

SMFH...










*Updates Times on Resumes...looks forward to future*

 

[CaribPilot]

The second to last guy on the airplane got a line LOL.

How the F&*K DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE?????? This is laughably stupid FML

 

[CaribPilot]

Im sick of this bullsh*t. Reserve again but guys junior to me getting lines because they have vacation and pre-assigned credits.

Seniority MEANS NOTHING IN MY LIFE RIGHT NOW.

This is grade A horsesh*t...the green mushy kind that smells like death on fire.

SMFH...










*Updates Times on Resumes...looks forward to future*

:angryfire

Alright im done....off to find adult beverages.

 

[Flyguy1226]

You are not bidding correctly.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You are not bidding correctly.

Sounds like it.

 

[CaribPilot]

Nope...had a rep check it. I did bid correctly.

The system is flawed...end of story.

 

[Jackie Moon]

I have had it happen to me when I have selected to award all parings before reserve. What happens is towards the bottom of the list all the pairings left can conflict so that only three can be awarded on any line. If they are all 20 hour four days that adds up to 60 hours which won't complete a schedule. The last 10 guys might all get reserve while the most junior guy has vacation so he only needs to get to 65. Two parings plus the vacation credit and he is done. If we keep pbs we need to have a rule that says if you bid to accept any paring before reserve no one junior to you can have a line while you are on reserve. Under line bidding if you were 65 on the list and there were 65 lines you would get one. Not now.

 

[Tailwind]

That is not accurate. As explained in the ALPA office, if the company wants 30 reserves for a particular seat and you are #30 from the bottom...you will get reserve. It doesn't matter if you have 80 hours of credit BEFORE the bid. You will be "forced on reserve". I think that is unfair. PBS was sold to us to turn one week of VAC into 2 or more. We were never told that was not the case for the bottom "%" on reserve.
If someone has concrete evidence to the contrary...by all means speak up.

 

[Plainsman]

I for one will be glad it is done when expressjet votes it out. Poor product no matter who has control of trip construction. Too many gotchas on this. Only people who really understand pbs are the kind of guys who play Dungeons and Dragons and see Harry Potter in full nerd regalia.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

I for one will be glad it is done when expressjet votes it out. Poor product no matter who has control of trip construction. Too many gotchas on this. Only people who really understand pbs are the kind of guys who play Dungeons and Dragons and see Harry Potter in full nerd regalia.

PBS and pairing construction are not the same problem. We don't need go change PBS, we need improvements to pairings

 

[centralpilot]

Only people who really understand pbs are the kind of guys who play Dungeons and Dragons and see Harry Potter in full nerd regalia.

The people who really understand PBS enjoy having great schedules and took the time to learn how the award logic works. It isn't that hard. My QOL has improved significantly with the schedule control I now enjoy. If that makes me a "nerd" so be it. The nerds have better trips and more days off than you.

 

[enuffalready]

The people who really understand PBS enjoy having great schedules and took the time to learn how the award logic works. It isn't that hard. My QOL has improved significantly with the schedule control I now enjoy. If that makes me a "nerd" so be it. The nerds have better trips and more days off than you.

I have never had the schedule nor QOL that i now have under PBS. I took the time to learn it, sat with reps, even had them check my bidding for a few months to make sure I was doing it correctly. Count me in a one that loves PBS.

 

[flyjen30]

It's too complicated. It's not a matter of dumb or smart. Why does the bidding process have to be so frustrating. It's ridiculous. We should have a much more fail proof system that doesn't take numerous tedious tutorials to learn how to use it. We work so much for this poorly managed company, why can't something that decides our quality of life be simple and less time consuming. As it is, this company denies every swap, works us until we are so tired that the few days off we have, we are resting up just to go back to the cluster f. This PBS system is a mess. Of course some some of you are getting what you want. You have to look across the board and see that many pilots are simply getting screwed. Waiting until the end of the month to know your schedule is unacceptable. Most of the people I work with have lives outside of this despicable place. Most people want to be treated like a professional. Expressjet pilots seem to have some sensibilities we are lacking at ASA. I hope the Expressjet pilots vote down this PBS system. Senior pilots that have worked very hard for the right to have a decent schedule should not be put on reserve and very junior pilots especially those at the bottom of the list should not be holding lines. Wtf! We all pay or dues. Vacations are just a small part of the whole picture. So you might get more, you might not. It's the daily grind that needs to be addressed. PBS is a failure.

 

[Jackie Moon]

That is not accurate. As explained in the ALPA office, if the company wants 30 reserves for a particular seat and you are #30 from the bottom...you will get reserve. It doesn't matter if you have 80 hours of credit BEFORE the bid. You will be "forced on reserve". I think that is unfair. PBS was sold to us to turn one week of VAC into 2 or more. We were never told that was not the case for the bottom "%" on reserve.
If someone has concrete evidence to the contrary...by all means speak up.

Not true. There will be 30 reserves but it doesn't mean they will be the 30 most junior pilots. It has happened to me so I know this for a fact. If the window is 85 and you can't get to it with the trips left you are on reserve. If someone junior to you has carry over or training or vacation that allows them to get to the window they will get a line. If they want 10 reserves they will get 10 but they don't have to be the most junior pilots. The union can say what they want but it has happened to me. Look at the awards. There is always someone in the middle of the pack of reserve pilots who has a line.

 

[Fishpaw]

ASA pilots who like pbs: you're not making a strong case. Of the 100 or so XJT pilots I've asked about pbs in the last year, only 1 said they would vote yes for it. Just look at this thread, it's not worth the risk. I'm sure the union will sell us a system that is supposed to be as good or better than what we have now, but it doesn't seem like that worked out too well for the majority of your pilots. Why don't we just vote on pbs now so the union will know whether or not to keep wasting all of our time discussing it?

 

[Cpt Oveur]

ASA pilots who like pbs: you're not making a strong case. Of the 100 or so XJT pilots I've asked about pbs in the last year, only 1 said they would vote yes for it. Just look at this thread, it's not worth the risk. I'm sure the union will sell us a system that is supposed to be as good or better than what we have now, but it doesn't seem like that worked out too well for the majority of your pilots. Why don't we just vote on pbs now so the union will know whether or not to keep wasting all of our time discussing it?

Of the 100 pilots at ExpressJet, I'm willing to bet none of them know the difference between what ASA has and what Continental has. PBS is entirely tailored to each company. You might as well as if you like line bidding at one company or another.