Airtran MEC voted no

[Lear70]

I think Gary fully understands now that 2 million per AAI pilot just wasn't enough, and at the same time he's getting an earfull from almost all of his SW pilots how unhappy they are. Beyond that, he has to look ahead to an angry mechanic's integration (makes the pilot talks look like a walk in the park), and the complete unkown of the FA integration. And the SW FA's union has been known to be much more militant than the SWAPA group.

Like I've said before, the pilots aren't the "hinge pin" in any kind of decision whether to integrate or not. Otherwise, any one thing can turn it one direction or another, which I find highly unlikely. That said, if we HAD come up with a negotiated solution, it *MIGHT* have helped with other groups, especially the F/A's.

It all kind of looks like a torn up lottery ticket to me. I don't see Gary stepping in during mediation to 'sweeting any pots', that ship has sailed.

Possibly, which would be HUGELY unfortunate, FOR ALL SIDES. The money involved in pulling what few "nuclear options" exist with both SWA and SWAPA (think HUNDREDS of MILLIONS lost) would be an enormous hit to the airline's bottom line and wouldn't help the stock prices. He has shareholders to answer to in addition to the employees.

In the same vein of thought, neither would turning SWA's culture into "just another legacy carrier" be a desirable option.

That's why I think they'll push again for a middle-ground solution. There's just really too much at stake to let a few angry people who want to "dig in and go to war" dictate the outcome of what may be his defining moment as the CEO of Southwest: finding a way to keep the culture intact in a "merger/acquisition" model rather than the outdated "organic growth" model.

I guess we'll see down the road. As I've posted on our internal board, I have the utmost respect for Southwest and its employees and don't want to see the culture irreparably harmed, but what was asked was simply "too much". There are fringe angry people on both sides, but I believe, despite what is often seen on here, that most SWA employees, just like AAI employees, are willing to fight hard, find something that works, put the battle gear away, and move on. It may take a while for the scars to heal, but would be a lot faster a healing process than arbitration.

YMMV

 

[Lear70]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...AAABk/okRhrFYTDuQ/s512/ONE%2520LUV%252025.jpg

LOLOL - that's not right...

 

[dicko]

You guys can keep spinning this anyway that you'd like, but it's a fact that Gary was a little more than upset the way ALPA handled the AIP and how the end game was a big NO vote. The facts are the facts, time to move on.

Red,

If anybody but GK told you this it's pure BS. Unfortunately, SWAPA has completely saturated AirTran pilots with propaganda. It was never believable and they need to stick to updating Wikipedia.

Here's an example: 'due to the AirTran MEC delay, Arbitration will not begin until November'.... A complete fabrication and absolutely transparent. Is SWAPA going to pull a hammy on the way to Washington ?

What are you going to say when Arbitration begins as scheduled ?

 

[Fubijaakr]

I'll give you a hint. Late 1980's. Frank Lorenzo. Texas air Corp.
Non union Continental grows. Union Eastern shrinks. Easy. .

Is this really how you think things get done? Threatening people? I guess you're a hard core Tea Partier, too.

Really? First its the pickleball theory ("We'll tie up arb in court for YEARS.") and now Frank Lorenzo.

You really are a piece of sacha.

 

[Sacha]

Not a threat. Just a piece of airline history to point out how airline management has handled certain employee groups that didn't play by their rules. They are many others but I happened to live through that one.

So you are voting for Michelle Bachmann? Interesting choice. I hope that works out for you Fudgepacker.......

 

[Music]

Here's an example: 'due to the AirTran MEC delay, Arbitration will not begin until November'

Don't forget this contradictory tidbit to the previous quote a day later:

Executive Blog - August 19, 2011
From your SWAPA President, Steve Chase

"...With the MEC voting no, rather than either pilot group, the Process Agreement allows for mediation to occur on already scheduled dates.***** We are going to follow the Process Agreement because that’s what we do; we honor our agreements...."

 

[Taco Rocket]

Do they have to honor the arbitration? Is it "binding?"


Quote:
Executive Blog - August 19, 2011
From your SWAPA President, Steve Chase

"...With the MEC voting no, rather than either pilot group, the Process Agreement allows for mediation to occur on already scheduled dates.***** We are going to follow the Process Agreement because that’s what we do; we honor our agreements...."

 

[dicko]

So you are voting for Michelle Bachmann? Interesting choice. I hope that works out for you Fudgepacker.......

She's a crazed lunatic. It's nice that we can agree on something.

 

[Red Baron]

Don't forget this contradictory tidbit to the previous quote a day later:

Personally, I think the mind set was that if this was voted down by either pilot group, no time would be left to mediate. Since the AT MEC voted no, it did not go to the pilot group, allowing time now for mediation. From Steve Chase, "That was based on a voting timeframe for both memberships that would of taken place during the time that mediation was scheduled."

I don't think it was meant to be contradictory. I understand frustration on behalf of SWAPA, and maybe that was part of it.

So, are we headed to mediation? Slight chance. Is SWAPA skeptical on any progress being made in mediation? Yes. Is there a chance for resolution before arbitration? We will all find out soon.

RB

 

[HighSpeed]

SWAPA will probably give in when they notice that GK can't do anything about the binding award, and would have to be very careful dealing with the AT pilots.



OYS

And that'll be the day that any remaining culture at SWA dies. This truly is an amazing place to work - if our leader and CEO fails to see what that would do, I'd be VERY surprised.

Simply put there is NO WAY Gary will let this turn in to a USAir type siuation - Best of luck guys - and I mean that...

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

I predict a mediated deal acceptable to both unions reached on arbitrator's doorstep. Neither pilot group will like it, but both with vote it in by narrow margin of realistic people.

 

[slaquer5]

Quote:
Originally Posted by On Your Six
SWAPA will probably give in when they notice that GK can't do anything about the binding award, and would have to be very careful dealing with the AT pilots.



OYS

Knowing that your an AT pilot , I find it interesting that you call our CEO a Paper Tiger AKA. ( Puzzy). I know lear70 thinks this also along with several others. I guess time will tell if you guys are correct.

 

[HighSpeed]

Maybe I have TOO much faith in GK, but I'm betting that he forces both sides back to the table at mediation next week, despite how irritated everyone is right now, and pushes them to find a middle ground.

Lear,

There is no more to give from the SWA side... our pilot group has spoken and the truth is we're not about to give anymore. The only way I see this ever avoiding arbitration is if you guys moved back...

Simply put, for us civilian guys, it took way too much to get here. As a 6 yr f/o, to have 250+ junior to me flying as captain for the next 10 or so years, and to have someone with my same date of hire at ATN make two years more pay at MY company is no longer acceptable... I stayed at the regional - even have a divorce on the books due to the strains, and my f/o's went to Airtran.

 

[Lear70]

Knowing that your an AT pilot , I find it interesting that you call our CEO a Paper Tiger AKA. ( Puzzy). I know lear70 thinks this also along with several others. I guess time will tell if you guys are correct.

Where the heck do you get THAT idea? Find ONE post where I said that... Hint: you won't find it.

What I *DID* say was that I have the utmost respect for SWA and its culture, and I believe GK to be a shrewd businessman who likely recognizes that the best way to move forward is to find negotiated solutions over arbitration.

Not sure where you get "paper tiger" out of that, but hey, it's not like FlightInfo is a place for any kind of rational thought.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Not sure what you're hearing about arbitration from SWAPA, but here's what Dana Eischen wrote. He was on the board of this decision at DAL/NWA. He will be our lead arbitrator.
'We have attempted, at all times, to recognize reasonable expectations of both parties while, in all instances, rejecting proposals that, however facially logical, resulted in untenable windfalls.'
'The resulting list neither realizes nor maintains each and every career expectations, nor could it do so. No recitation of career expectations ever includes a merger, and no merger can leave all hopes and plans unaffected. The most that can be said, and it can be said with some assurance in this case, is that the merger of these particular companies will result in a uniquely powerful entity, by virtue of the contributions of both carriers, that is capable of better withstanding the substantial challenges of the current environment than if the Companies had chose to go it alone.'

 

[Music]

I don't think it was meant to be contradictory. I understand frustration on behalf of SWAPA, and maybe that was part of it.

I absolutely get that. I was only pointing out what appears to be a contradiction being made here on this forum, quoting some facts.

Point taken, however.

 

[RobZerbe]

According to our MC, SWAPA would not budge on the list and our guys walked out of negotiations. They were heading home as GK called them in to see if there is anything could be done to fix it. They respectfully agreed to try. He proposed his protections and restrictions. However our MC kept referencing to the bad list. GK looked at SWAPA. They moved a few numbers and said it was final. GK tried to make things work for both parties. Our MC felt that in a standstill with SWAPA and with GK's good efforts this would be the absolute best that could ever be negotiated at the table.

The last thing our MEC knew about the status of negotiations was that the MC walked out and was on the way home. The "emergency" meeting with GK was not communicated to MEC until after the fact due to timing and the nature of talks. The MC was cornered into agreeing to the proposal with no attorneys present, or MEC approval. (rest assured that will never be allowed again)

This started a disconnect between MC and MEC. Pilots never gave a bird to GK, in fact the opposite, we appreciate his effort to fix the list with protections.

It took MEC longer than SWAPA to vote, because while SL9 provided SWAPA with necessary adjustments to their CBA, the equivalent of SL9 still had to be drafted and approved by legal on our side, for our CBA along with other transitional documents that SWAPA didn't have to have to vote.

AirTran pilots were outraged with SWAPA's refusal to negotiate a fair list. The list is what this thing was about. The list you offered, not GK. He wasn't just helping us, he was helping you, because he knows you'll get crushed in arbitration. Now he can't say that he didn't try.

Don't tell me GK is mad at us... He knows the whole story, not just the propaganda SWAPA put out for you to cover up how THEY caused you to go to arbitration.

The only thing more classless than revealing information from the negotiating table is revealing partial and misleading information combined with outright lies.

This attempt to rewrite history is beyond tacky. I will not respond in kind, however I will offer the following FACTS:
- The Seniority List Agreement was reached during direct pilot to pilot negotiations (no lawyers)
- Governance from both unions was fully briefed and aware of the proposals at the table.
- The MEC and MC were in constant contact throughout the negotiation, including when the Agreement in Principle was reached.
- The deal was negotiated fairly and in good faith
- The decision to reject it was the MEC's.

The disinformation and spin from AirTran ALPA needs to stop. It is damaging to the process and is unprofessional. Knock it off.

Rob Zerbe

 

[dicko]

As a 6 yr f/o, to have 250+ junior to me flying as captain for the next 10 or so years,

You're saying that there are 250 5th year AirTran Captains ..... ?

 

[Fubijaakr]

So you are voting for Michelle Bachmann? Interesting choice. I hope that works out for you Fudgepacker.......

Again, my fault for attempting to use ironic humor. It only works for people of average intelligence or greater. I'm not surprised you completely missed it.

She's a crazed lunatic. It's nice that we can agree on something.

Amen. And she's still the GOP frontrunner.

Simply put there is NO WAY Gary will let this turn in to a USAir type siuation - Best of luck guys - and I mean that...

Agreed. Mr. Kelly will take the arbitrated list, implement it and tell the SWA guys to STFU. Because he doesn't give a fig about Sacha's "career expectations."

He has an airline to run and KNOWS a pickleball revolt from the canyon bluehards will hopelessly fragment the operation. Fortunately, he's smarter than his average f/o.

 

[Sacha]

Again, my fault for attempting to use ironic humor. It only works for people of average intelligence or greater. I'm not surprised you completely missed it.



Amen. And she's still the GOP frontrunner.



Agreed. Mr. Kelly will take the arbitrated list, implement it and tell the SWA guys to STFU. Because he doesn't give a fig about Sacha's "career expectations."

He has an airline to run and KNOWS a pickleball revolt from the canyon bluehards will hopelessly fragment the operation. Fortunately, he's smarter than his average f/o.

Fudgepacker,

My career expectations have more than been met. At 20 years with SWA, this will not affect me no matter what. But it will affect the guys I fly with and the morale of all my fellow workers. I stood up to Lorenzo for what is right so this will be easy in comparison.

Now how about your career expectations?

Your either in awe of Michelle Bachmann or taking pointers on her technique which explains your community college mentality. I'll bet you live in San Fran?
Am I right? Now go ahead and become indignant.