Airtran MEC voted no

[Tripower455]

Not ATA, Midwest. We were growing, they were struggling, and yes, we were gonna offer them relative seniority 300 of them 1500 of us integrated at fair ratio.

How about the deal you guys proposed to offer ATA (which was far closer to a "merger of equals" than this is)?

That's fair, right?

 

[Cometman]

Not ATA, Midwest. We were growing, they were struggling, and yes, we were gonna offer them relative seniority 300 of them 1500 of us integrated at fair ratio.

How do you ratio a group if you are giving them Relative seniority? Isn't it either relative seniority or a ratio? If you give them relative seniority and then ratio them then are they really getting relative? Just a question.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

How about the deal you guys proposed to offer ATA (which was far closer to a "merger of equals" than this is)?

That's fair, right?

AirTran never bought or attempted to by ATA.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

How do you ratio a group if you are giving them Relative seniority? Isn't it either relative seniority or a ratio? If you give them relative seniority and then ratio them then are they really getting relative? Just a question.

I can't believe I have to explain this here.

Relative seniority is if you bid in top 25% at airline A, after airlines A and B combine you will still be relatively same seniority- 25% Your seniority NUMBER will go up, however your number will be able to buy you same 25% worth of perks.

Fair ratio is if you have airline A with 300 pilots and airline B with 1500 pilots, you integrate at 1:5 ratio. End result - everyone's relative position (relative seniority) remains the same.

Save all the argument on who deserves what for the arbitrator. Just answering to the ones with "just a question".

 

[Tripower455]

AirTran never bought or attempted to by ATA.

Semantics..... It was considered, and there was an offer floated from your pilots to the ATA pilots. Don't you think you guys deserve the same consideration, even though you were offered FAR better already?

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

SWA hired a hand full of ATA pilots, while AirTran, (4 times smaller company) hired dozens. Not to mention the fact that AirTran had no obligation to hire any since SWA walked away with the prize.

 

[Music]

Music,

I really have enjoyed your posts and I appreciate your efforts.

Likewise.

Unfortunately, it is viewed as personal here and very much so. While I cannot state how it is viewed in the big D, I can tell you how it is viewed on the line. Knowing Southwest pretty well, I can certainly believe that Dallas feels the same way.

Frankly it would have been better if the pilots themselves had voted it down. The MEC represents the pilots and voted based on the opinions of their pilots. So, yes, the pilots have rejected SWA. Additionally, it appears as there is a third party who has interjected themselves into the process and who elects to stand in the way of progress and luv.

Very personal -Extremely.

I completely understand that this has become personal, hence the reason for my statement. As a matter of fact, when the deal was announced last year I was shocked at how vitriolic the statements were from SW pilots toward AT pilots. I was pissed at how anyone could say those things, much less when we were just pawns in this whole thing. Rather than let it consume me, I decided not to take it personally and ignore the attacks from SW pilots on here, and accept SL8 as business. Put yourself in our shoes for a moment when the Transition Agreement/SL8 came out, pretty tough to swallow if you allow it to become personal. As result, I just accepted it as the business of SWAPA taking care of its membership, and didn't take it personal. Please recognize that is all that has happened here from the ATN MEC, the MEC taking care its membership, that's all.

 

[SkiFishFly]

Maybe we should all step out of our respective shoes and look down at this from a different view. I am a Southwest pilot. I expect my union to fight for all the Southwest pilots and try to earn us the best possible integrated seniority list that they can get. If I were an Air Tran pilot, I would expect ALPA to do their best to do the same. This isn't personal...It is a business transaction that none of us had a say in. Now, we deal with it. When this is all done, I hope that my currently great airline remains that way and doesn't turn into a raging dumpster fire because all the work groups are pissed at each other. Bob and Gary created this mess and not the line pilot. Now, it seems very likely that we are headed towards allowing three judges to decide our future fates. That sucks plain and simple for both sides. None of us like to ride in the back, but it is what it is. If we remember who caused this mess when all is said and done, hopefully we will all be able to put this behind us an enjoy the rest of our long careers together.

Hopefully presented respectfully!

Count me as completely in agreement with you. Together these two employee groups can make what was already the best airline - SWA, even greater!

 

[shootr]

SWA hired a hand full of ATA pilots, while AirTran, (4 times smaller company) hired dozens. Not to mention the fact that AirTran had no obligation to hire any since SWA walked away with the prize.

So you're saying it was much harder for ATA pilots to get hired by SWA than by Airtran...

 

[Music]

Lets look at it from the acquiring or "hiring" side: you guys are making it a business dealing, fine. This has also been a test of goodwill and faith, your side has failed in both respects.

I'm not sure where you're getting an act of "good faith" when relating it to the SLA. A similar analogy would be if we agreed to throw someone else off a bridge that it would be an act of "good faith" if we actually did it.

Sending an ill informed NC to negotiate without knowledge of membership goals waisting everyones time, and allowing a MEC to ride blindly along until the eleventh hour, failing to let the membership decide the merits of the AIP.

I can't disagree with you there. I am still shaking my head that there was so little guidance as to what this pilot group/MEC would have been willing to accept.

Not one person hasn't seen through the ALPA spin here "let the pilots speak before we let them vote". NOT. MOB rule of the loudest voices in a room is NOT democracy.

I won't claim to be plugged into what the union is doing, few are. However, I've been around unions for a while (especially ALPA) and I've seen functional and dysfunctional. While our union has issues, I would never characterize it as some secret conspiracy here. I've never been one to accept that kind of stuff anyway.

If they knew what the pilots wanted, how can an NC become so disonnected from them and a MEC? They can't, this is all turnning into an ALPA game. I wonder how many jobs ALPA kills this time, 1,700?.

Again, more like dysfunction not diabolical plan.

 

[Tripower455]

SWA hired a hand full of ATA pilots, while AirTran, (4 times smaller company) hired dozens. Not to mention the fact that AirTran had no obligation to hire any since SWA walked away with the prize.

And where did they start out at AT? Relative? Date of hire?

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

You missing the point, AirTran got nothing from ATA, nothing. You acquired and are now merging with a successful business.

 

[Nindiri]

Triple false! (see how easy that is )

I'm waiting for the rare triple dog false.

 

[Nindiri]

FALSE, The pilots of SWA will use any and all means to block an arbitrated SLI. Even turning this place into a usair/amwest.

So SWA pilots would burn their company to the ground rather than share?

Impressive.

 

[GuppyWN]

Now, I live in ATL and have unfortunately had to dodge commuting on AAI because some there have shown me the same level of immaturity as some of them have seen with our group. My commute sucks right now because I don't know what to expect if I show up at an Airtran gate.

Back to lurking, commuting and having faith.

Just non-rev. Then you don't have to even speak with the porn stars up front.

Gup

 

[redflyer65]

Which airline was harder to get hired at?

Which airline had much higher career expecations?

Which airline has been profitable every year?

Which airline has never furloughed a pilot?

This is beyond apples and oranges.

There are some SW pilots that are ready to tank this deal come hell or highwater, there are many others waiting to see if they will join.

 

[The Prussian]

. . . The MEC voted it down because the majority of our pilots didn't feel that a 32% seniority haircut was "fair and equitable".

Then why didn't the MEC let the majority of their pilots say so themselves?

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Then why didn't the MEC let the majority of their pilots say so themselves?

Because that would show SWAPA guys how many percent they have to tweak this thing to pass, instead of working on a fair deal.

Think.

 

[The Prussian]

Unlikely. AirTran flourishes in an economic downturn. Always has, and we're hedged better than Southwest is.

Seems to me that in that last economic downturn I remember Airtran almost going bankrupt,...right???

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Seems to me that in that last economic downturn I remember Airtran almost going bankrupt,...right???

SWA management made a good decision then to buy great hedges. Do you expect them to ALWAYS make good decisions in the future? Then why don't you embrace this one?