Airtran MEC voted no

[waveflyer]

It's simple math. Our pilot group is 25% the size of yours. The 32% removed from us equals 8% gain on your side.

Most of us lose here lose around 32%. The exception is the group at the bottom hired after 2008, who lose zero.

For example I go from being at 29% (from the top) to 61%, which puts me with guys hired almost 4 years after I was.



The protection in ATL only applied to the 40% of our pilot group that would not have been displaced. Even at 29% on our seniority list, I would not be able to hold ATL.

It is simple math Ty- bc we've been around for 40 years- our senior pilots were hired in the 70's- we have almost 1600 pilots hired by 1996- so if you got your wet dream of DOH those 1600 pilots hired before you existed represent 25% of Swapa pilots and over 20% of the combined 7800.
So what you really lost was 12%- and only in current terms- you're so much younger that as our pilots retire, that number gets smaller. as the smaller company, making less, screwed up mgmt- that wasn't a bad deal.
IMO. But then again, I work here and know how good I have it.

So it ideological- I think losing 4-6 years is about right- where you guys don't. Ok
But it's also mathematical- and that's where you guys have bought into a statistical lie- I don't see how you'll improve on the proposed list by much even at arby- so what you did was throw away all the protections and pay bumps, jeopardize the whole integration, for the possibility of 3-6% more than what was offered. That's not fantastic logic.
IMO

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

You were there and heard this?? Are you saying there are guys that are willing to fly as SWA Sr FOs vs AAI Jr CP??

Yes I was there, and yes there are guys like that.

Here's what you don't see. They are not just stapled to the captain list. They will be stapled when everyone of SWA FO's in-front of them upgrades. So they will be stapled in 10 years, providing that Alaska doesn't come along, in which case they will get re-stapled. So some would rather downgrade for a few years, but keep better seniority, so when they once again become a junior captain they have nowhere to go but up.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Nothing is guaranteed in this industry, not pay, not stability, not job security, nothing except your seniority number. SWAPA understands it as was obvious in the proposal. Today's vote shows you that ATN MEC understands that as well.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Not even your seniority number is guaranteed, not when you switch from one employer to another. B/M has tried to even that out some, but there are still no guarantees.

And that is where your greedy union folk overstepped. You're coming to my employer, not I to yours.

 

[Cruncher]

FBC:

It would take me 22 years to get it back. I'll be a 60 year old man at the same exact point of my career where I am now.

You are a mid - senior ATN Captain at 38? (If I am right, that's about the age of our mid - JUNIOR FOs). There is about an 8 - 10 year difference between the two seniority groups age at the same seniority position. Not only do we have a lot more "old" captains, but check out our FO ranks. No offense to my grey hair brothers

A RS SLI would be a complete utter disaster to the SWA pilots. Hands down. Obviously I don't know what Gary will do, but if RS is handed down, ... that will be a disaster for not only the SWA guys (at least initially) but for the ATN guys as well. We'll never become one. Sorry.

Even DOH sucks for SWA guys, especially considering the 100's of guys who left ATN for SWA, including Captains. Yes they are here and we know who they are. Add in the 100ish apps we had on file last Sept and the guys in the hiring pool (who were hired, but said "no thanks I'll take my chances through this SLI").

I not here threatening anyone, because I believe fighting for what you believe in, is the right thing to do, but don't let ALPA bite the hand too much. Some wounds don't heal so well.

Good luck to us all!

-C


PS Oh, when I was "wasting jet fuel" over Iraq, I was not only employing, but been on the wrong side of the business end, if you know what I mean. I'm here typing in a hotel room, some of my buds will never have the option, ever. Also, you do know a "tour" is 7 months right? And some of us have more than 2 tours, and more than just Iraq. Thanks.

 

[madjack]

"So some would rather downgrade for a few years, but keep better seniority, so when they once again become a junior captain they have nowhere to go but up."

Deal, can I quote you??

OBTW: I have heard the going in position of the ALPA/AAI MC was that "CPs keep their seats" non negotiable...and that had a lot to do with how the AIP was shaped...

 

[madjack]

"PS Oh, when I was "wasting jet fuel" over Iraq, I was not only employing, but been on the wrong side of the business end, if you know what I mean. I'm here typing in a hotel room, some of my buds will never have the option, ever. Also, you do know a "tour" is 7 months right? And some of us have more than 2 tours, and more than just Iraq. Thanks."

Well said and thank you Cruncher!!

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

we have almost 1600 pilots hired by 1996-
IMO

AirTran started in 1993, not 1996, that's 1000 people too many you put on the top. I'm sure if you would take them off we would be voting to approve this deal today.

 

[On Your Six]

Says the twit who has none.

It's called potential, something your spouse says you lack at night.


OYS

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

I am in late 30s, and you have captains my age. I almost always fly with guys who are older than me. And as we all know that after 9/11 SWA and AirTran were one of few airlines who were hiring so both hired older/more experienced pilots who would not go to either company if 9/11 didn't happen and United, Delta, American were hiring.

 

[madjack]

Our youngest CP is 38? Your point??

 

[Old School 737]

Originally Posted by bravodude
Calls are already beeing made to USAPA for some legal advice.


That right there is the funniest thing I have read in a long time!!!

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Our youngest CP is 38? Your point??

Not sure why you guys bring up the age.

As for retirements. Arbitrators use "pull and plug" method. They pull all retirements out of the list for next how ever many years they think is fair, then merge the list, then plug retirements back in where they would be next to their peers. That way when they retire the list becomes fair. Why couldn't you guys do that?
Your list put me 6% junior to guy my age hired on same day as me in 2040. Shouldn't be all retirements be gone by then, shouldn't we be next to each-other? Your list labeled me as "former Tranny" for the rest of my life, while I wanted list that would make just another SWA pilot in 30 years.

 

[madjack]

"Your list labeled me as "former Tranny" for the rest of my life, while I wanted list that would make just another SWA pilot in 30 years."

You weren't hired by SWA, you were hired by AAI, and AAI was acquired by SWA...

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

You weren't hired by SWA, you were hired by AAI, and AAI was acquired by SWA...

Not sure this is how Gary wants these groups to become. One LUV?

 

[On Your Six]

It is simple math Ty- bc we've been around for 40 years- our senior pilots were hired in the 70's- we have almost 1600 pilots hired by 1996- so if you got your wet dream of DOH those 1600 pilots hired before you existed represent 25% of Swapa pilots and over 20% of the combined 7800.
So what you really lost was 12%- and only in current terms- you're so much younger that as our pilots retire, that number gets smaller. as the smaller company, making less, screwed up mgmt- that wasn't a bad deal.
IMO. But then again, I work here and know how good I have it.

So it ideological- I think losing 4-6 years is about right- where you guys don't. Ok
But it's also mathematical- and that's where you guys have bought into a statistical lie- I don't see how you'll improve on the proposed list by much even at arby- so what you did was throw away all the protections and pay
bumps, jeopardize the whole integration, for the possibility of 3-6% more than what was offered. That's not fantastic logic.
IMO

Your team will have to argue those facts infront of the arbitrator(s), and hope it sticks. Looking at the recent awards, even financially weaker airlines, that paid less (Colgan) did fairly well in the integration with much stronger airlines. I still don't think it will be close to 1 for 1 or DOH, but it certainly won't be like the previous one, and that scares some people. Two companies with comparable business plans (LCC), flying same size planes, with one doing some International flights. Hmmmm. One is bigger than the other, and that will be reflected in a ratio probably, but the % difference probably won't be close to 38%. (not even close). I don't think GK would even want to get involved, but you never know.



OYS

 

[Fubijaakr]

Note to madjack: This is how the QUOTE button works. Try it. It will make your posts LESS confusing if not less confounding.

Here's what you don't see. They are not just stapled to the captain list. They will be stapled when everyone of SWA FO's in-front of them upgrades.

Exactly right. Additionally, even if the list went DoH there are a ton of AAI CAs looking at a LONG time on reserve.

So they will be stapled in 10 years, providing that Alaska in which case they will get re-stapled.

An Alaska/SWA merger isn't that far out of the question. And in that case the AS and combined SWA/AAI list would merge by DoH. Period, end of story.

 

[rajflyboy]

Well

I hate to say >> "I told you so"

you guys should have taken this deal and ran to the bank and cashed the checks while the money was still in the account.

Now the account may be running empty

 

[Fubijaakr]

Now the account may be running empty

AAI guys aren't scared by you're empty threats. Why don't you post "blah, blah blah" next time. Its just as effective.

And if anyone needs to be "scared" of arbitration, its SWA pilots. You're justification for hosing AAI guys out of their rightful seniority has so many holes even the Swiss wouldn't call it cheese.

 

[shootr]

An Alaska/SWA merger isn't that far out of the question. And in that case the AS and combined SWA/AAI list would merge by DoH. Period, end of story.

On that point, you may be right. This is not Alaska/SWA. Sorry if that stings some.

 

[canyonblue]

I made 30% more than 11 year captain made at 17 year old SWA (adjusted for inflation).

You obviously have incorrect information. Even adjusted for inflation, every SWA 11 year CA since 1974 makes more than you.