Why are the 1700+ trannies pilots not recalling their status reps?

[shootr]

The difference is that GK has usually got what he wanted from the SWA pilots when he threw money at them. It doesn't work that way for the AAI pilots. For most of us, money has never been the driving force behind our career expectations. And IMO, thats why this failed.

Gary Kelly has NEVER "thrown money at the pilots"...until now. The AIP was likely the 1st and last time money will be thrown at the pilots at Southwest Airlines (hint - it wasn't thrown at SWAPA).

 

[Fubijaakr]

Lastly, lets try to be honest. The average seniority loss for airtran pilots was LESS THAN 30% from relative..

Let's be REALLY honest...if YOU were taking a 30% loss of seniority, would you vote for it?

No way, Jose.

The AAI MEC did what's best for their pilots. That's their job. And arbitration is much preferable to the porking you clowns wanted to give them.

 

[humveedriver]

"Actually, I'm not sure the AT pilots do want more in terms of money (they will probably end up with less), they just don't want to take a large DOH reduction that will stay with them forever."

Save the BS...you guys are going to get the money and you know it (DFR/SWAPA, CBA language etc...), you want the seniority AND the money, nothing altruistic, just greed plain and simple...

You're absolutely wrong on that point. I for one don' t expect both. I was even thinking that you guys may face a similar choice if the results of arbitration are not what your pilot group can accept. GK may offer your group more cash incentives to move on with an arbitrated list. We shall see.

 

[gt1900]

Probably the same reason not too long ago people bailed SWA for UAL and DAL. I remember not too long ago when SWA was a stepping stone for a lot of people. Remember, its only been the last several years that SWA has risen to the top, and your pay still isn't what UAL and DAL paid their 737 pilots before 9/11. I don't think any AAI pilots are on a high horse, and I don't think any of us our greedy. Many of us lost DOH minus another 20%. I don't think anyone was ever looking at relative seniority, everyone at AAI knows that would be a windfall for us, and thats not what we are asking for. But a 30%+ loss? Thats just too much! For many of us, the 10 year fence doesn't even protect us, because we will still be 5-10+% less junior then than we are now. If they need to negotaiate new 717 rates becasue of this, so be it. Hell, Id be perfectly happy keeping the current 717 rates. Again, money isn't everything. I know its hard for a lot of you guys to understand, but its true! We have enough guys at AAI who were on top and lost the money, and they know how important seniority is.

 

[gt1900]

Gary Kelly has NEVER "thrown money at the pilots"...until now. The AIP was likely the 1st and last time money will be thrown at the pilots at Southwest Airlines (hint - it wasn't thrown at SWAPA).

Perfect. Id gladly take my relative seniority and my current pay. Would you be OK with that?

 

[gt1900]

You are 100% wrong. Our NC even told us that GK said the 717 rates staying the same as the 737 rates was based on us accepting this SLI. Economically, it doesn't make sense to pay the same as the 737. Our pilot group turned down this SLI knowing that. So again, its not about the money.

 

[shootr]

Perfect. Id gladly take my relative seniority and my current pay. Would you be OK with that?

You may get your wish on a separate list that will never grow. Would you be OK with that? Like AA and Eagle except with a no growth provision. Maybe even a flow through...

While a B scale is distastleful to me, if the effects can be mitigated by SWAPA/SWA agreement, I MIGHT be able to live with that.

Again, this is not where I wanted this to go. But that was out of my control.

 

[gt1900]

You may get your wish on a separate list that will never grow. Would you be OK with that? Like AA and Eagle except with a no growth provision. Maybe even a flow through...

While a B scale is distastleful to me, if the effects can be mitigated by SWAPA/SWA agreement, I MIGHT be able to live with that.

Again, this is not where I wanted this to go. But that was out of my control.

Of course I don't want no growth. Just give me the growth from the 50 737 deliveries we had coming to AAI. Thats not asking too much.

Shootr, Im trying not to turn this into the pissing match it already has. Trust me, Im looking forward to hopefully being a great addition to the SWA pilots. Ill work my @ss off and hopefully contribute to the culture. BUT, you have to understand. Im losing DOH plus almost another 15%! There is a 10 year fence, but at the end of 10 years I will still be 10% less junior then I am now when the fence drops? I go backwards by nearly 700 pilots in 10 years! Is that really fair? If you were in my position, would you agree to that? Add the fact that too many of us know that money doesn't always last, and you will maybe understand where we are coming from..

Let me ask you this, would you be OK with us taking the current SLI if it guaranteed that if SWA came looking for pay cuts, AAI pilots wouldn't have to take them since we gave up seniority for pay?

 

[Daddy]

I think you trannies may want to check out our side letter 8. I would hate to see the worst happen here as I know a few guys there, but this was another big example of ALPA overplaying their hand yet again. DAL, NWA, F9, UAL, USAir....how many pilot groups is that union going to screw up and drag through BK before it is all over. I really think your MEC is playing with fire. 'Gary' will only go so far to make you a part of the SWA family, but he is a beancounter at his core...I wish I could explain the weird dynamic as it is unlike any other company and to most outside SWA/SWAPA just plain bizarre. If the pilot integration gets much worse, it is virtually guaranteed to be heinous among the FA's and mechs as we are sickeningly complaint compared to them. The FA's will no-sh!t burn this place down and Gary knows it. I think you will probably get one more chance at a deal in this quasi-mediation period, but then that's probably it.

 

[gt1900]

I think you trannies may want to check out our side letter 8. I would hate to see the worst happen here as I know a few guys there, but this was another big example of ALPA overplaying their hand yet again. DAL, NWA, F9, UAL, USAir....how many pilot groups is that union going to screw up and drag through BK before it is all over. I really think your MEC is playing with fire. 'Gary' will only go so far to make you a part of the SWA family, but he is a beancounter at his core...I wish I could explain the weird dynamic as it is unlike any other company and to most outside SWA/SWAPA just plain bizarre. If the pilot integration gets much worse, it is virtually guaranteed to be heinous among the FA's and mechs as we are sickeningly complaint compared to them. The FA's will no-sh!t burn this place down and Gary knows it. I think you will probably get one more chance at a deal in this quasi-mediation period, but then that's probably it.

I think your probably correct. My guess is that many of the protections will fall, for a little better seniority, and then this deal will pass. Hopefully then everyone can live as one big azz kicking family. I don't think anyone at AAI wants a windfall, and I don't think anyone at AAI wants SWA guys to suffer either. IMO, you guys will still get a pretty good seniorty bump with protections that will speed up your upgrade, and have more money in your pocket because of it. But again, please understand where we are comming from. Going backwards by 700 numbers when the fence goes away in 10 years isn't really exciting to most of us. I guarantee if you were in our shoes you wouldn't agree to that.

 

[fam62c]

"and believe it or not, the senior FO's who lost their upgrades not only took losses, but they took pay cuts as well since they lost out on upgrade for the next 10+ years."

Everyone would be happy if you guys never got on the property, period, but you got bought because the industry cannot support the number of airlines that are out there...i will "lose" my upgrade to, the difference I won't get a pay raise while doing it...get over yourselves, your expectation for upgrade at AAI changed the second you were bought at SWA...as did mine...

I'm not sure you will "lose" your upgrade. Your upgrade was based on attrition of the SW CA's above you, that was all that was guaranteed with SW not growing organically. Your CEO decided to make an aquisition, he didn't ask either union for permission and he didn't insist on lists before a deal because he didn't want this deal scuttled by unions. I would think that it's very likely an arbitrator will "fence" off CA vacancies created by native SW CA retirements for native SW FO's. That would be fair because you "owned" that attrition based movement prior to this deal and it should continue to belong to you. As far as the AT CA slots are concerned, show me an arbitrated merger/aquisition between two solvent major airlines where CA's got displaced so FO's in the same equipment group could take the slots. I can't think of one and that's realty, it is what it is; that doesn't mean that it "has" to be that way in this arbitration though we'll just have to see.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Again, this is not where I wanted this to go. But that was out of my control.

No you wanted to go in front of 650 other guys senior to you.

 

[shootr]

No you wanted to go in front of 650 other guys senior to you.

You have no idea what my seniority is or where I would have fallen on the list.

 

[N1atEcon]

I think you trannies may want to check out our side letter 8. I would hate to see the worst happen here as I know a few guys there, but this was another big example of ALPA overplaying their hand yet again. DAL, NWA, F9, UAL, USAir....how many pilot groups is that union going to screw up and drag through BK before it is all over. I really think your MEC is playing with fire. 'Gary' will only go so far to make you a part of the SWA family, but he is a beancounter at his core...I wish I could explain the weird dynamic as it is unlike any other company and to most outside SWA/SWAPA just plain bizarre. If the pilot integration gets much worse, it is virtually guaranteed to be heinous among the FA's and mechs as we are sickeningly complaint compared to them. The FA's will no-sh!t burn this place down and Gary knows it. I think you will probably get one more chance at a deal in this quasi-mediation period, but then that's probably it.

This pretty much sums it up. Your MEC is sounding a bit like FAPA. If you want to keep saying "we will do better with ARBY" I hope that lets you sleep well at night. SWA/SWAPA has more cards to play than you do. You have but one card and its already on the table.

 

[fam62c]

"Actually, I'm not sure the AT pilots do want more in terms of money (they will probably end up with less), they just don't want to take a large DOH reduction that will stay with them forever."

Save the BS...you guys are going to get the money and you know it (DFR/SWAPA, CBA language etc...), you want the seniority AND the money, nothing altruistic, just greed plain and simple...

Jack, you are "mad" I'll give you that Seriously though I can understand your frustration 100% and I would probably feel the same way if I was in your spot. I fully understand why most SW pilots never wanted anything to do with this aquisition but your CEO did the deal and that's that, he didn't ask for your blessing. There are a lot of unknowns here and change is not easy for most pilots on either side.

If you read my post again my point was simply that when the AT MEC rejected this deal there were some positive financial "kickers" for the AT guys if they were willing to accept a DOH reduction (and have pilots with less longevity senior to them forever) that are now gone. The AT guys as a group seem to (without a vote we will never really know) accept the removal of those provisions if it gives them a chance for a more traditional seniority integration. I'm not your enemy, I'm just a pawn in this game like the rest of us.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Your gonna throw families on the street because of possible subjective future expectations being affected. That is really sick man. Doing that would make you guys no better than anyone else in this industry.

No, your union is the only one throwing families on the street. Let's make that clear.

 

[scoreboardII]

You leaped before you looked

(NYSE: LUV ) stock $7.89

Approaching a 2 year low.

LUV price at AT purchase last year: $11 and change

Market CAP today $6.4B, at AT purchase $8.9B

A loss in value of $2.5B.

Some of that is market crash, but real loss none the less.

Gary will determine his companies going forward position based on market conditions.

SL8 protects every SWA pilot from furlough.

SL9 is gone.

Roughly 100% of the value of the Airtran purchase is GONE.

I often said winning the battle could result in losing the war.

In this case, it looks like the generals of the MEC walked off the field before letting the players decide.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

MEC followed the wishes of it's members.
You're are great number cruncher, but unlike you, GK does not factor in where his favorite pilot named scoreboardII end up in this equation.
You had an opportunity to get a fairly negotiated deal. You blew it.

 

[PCL_128]

You may get your wish on a separate list that will never grow. Would you be OK with that?

Of course not, since that would be a violation of the Process Agreement that SWA management signed along with SWAPA and ALPA. But I'm sure Gary has far more honor than to violate the agreements that he has signed in good faith.

 

[Sacha]

MEC followed the wishes of it's members.
You're are great number cruncher, but unlike you, GK does not factor in where his favorite pilot named scoreboardII end up in this equation.
You had an opportunity to get a fairly negotiated deal. You blew it.

Did you vote? What were the percentages?

P.S. Your comment to one of our military veterans about "wasting gas in Iraq"
was disgusting. You have joined the ranks of your Valuejet scabs as to not being welcome on my jumpseat. Actually, on second thought, I would let one of them on before you.