Final Agreement reached

[On Your Six]

Actually, that's what many of us are worried about.

That we take this deal, take a HUGE hit on our seniority, takes about 12-15 years to upgrade, but during that time, Southwest merges with Alaska or Hawaiian (or even jetBlue), those airlines push this thing to arbitration, they get DoH (or even relative), and now we never upgrade.

Ever. Never. Career F/O's. And there's nothing in the agreement that guarantees Southwest could prevent that or be successful like this SIA with future mergers.

There's risks for us that aren't limited to just "non-integration" concerns. Not that they aren't also a risk for arbitration (they are), but the idea of that scenario above simply sucks. But at least we'll have one thing
SWA pilots after this. All of us will hope that Southwest never, ever, merges
with another airline ever again.

I don't think you'd have to worry about merging with AK. Other airlines might have a bigger interest in keeping things status quo. I'm sure plenty are looking at AK as we type.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

I love all the fear- guess what? Somebody somewhere will upgrade. But you guys act like a bunch of regional pilots who think you'll actually be happier when you upgrade. At least the youngsters have a need for PIC time- this mentality at the majors is just dumb.

Lear- there you go again- ALL of your FOs are going to get Air Tran captain money as an FO- so once again, your point is retarded by logic. Is steering the tiller that important to you guys?
I know you don't believe me, but I AM a moderate - guys are pissed here - they view- and I can't argue- that every trannie gets their upgrade when they get our pay. And we get nothing but paper seniority- unexercisable and even furloughed out of order-

Sounds like you're picking a side Lear.

Somebody will upgrade, but your retirement schedule is very slow for the next ten years, maybe 150 a year? That could mean stagnation. And what is this about junior SWA FOs upgrading before senior AT FOs? If that is true, that doesn't smell right.



OYS

 

[$$$4nothin]

Better pay, better work rules, more days off, more base choices, better corporate culture, better QOL over all. Who gives a damn if you lose %32 seniority. SW isn't going anywhere and another merge is very unlikely. Hey Airtran guys; just enjoy your winning lotto ticket, and stop complaining. I forgot to add. If you can't live on 150k as an FO and getting 15-18 days off a month you should really reevaluate your life.

 

[Lear70]

Lear, one of the reasons a week or so ago that you gave for the delay in MEC decision was to obtain protections from SWA on transfering jets, and not taking pilots along with those jets. Keeps SWA from taking jets without pilots or slow rolling the pilots.

In reading the AT LOA, I don't see any protection other than furlough protection. Do you see any protection preventing SWA from moving jets and taking fewer than flying those jets?

That's exactly correct.

There is still NO minimum number of crews per aircraft that have to be transitioned with each aircraft that's taken across the "partition".

The Merger Committee failed to get that item. That and about 3 other items that were not obtained basically mean that, in many people's opinion, the SIA did not realize the promises promoted to our MEC and our pilot group in the AIP.

There's a very heated debate going on about that right now, both behind closed doors between the MEC members and online in our private forum. If I had to guess, I'd say the majority of the MEC doesn't have the cajones to vote it down, and it'll go to vote. Once it goes to vote, I think it's too close to call right now. Depends on how the road shows are received, IMHO.

 

[SWA/FO]

:crying: ugh! will it ever end.

 

[jonjuan]

:crying: ugh! will it ever end.

It will once Bloch produces the list.

 

[Empennage]

It will once Bloch produces the list.

shortsighted

Think implementation

 

[zippy32]

Lear-Do you care to answer my question?

 

[SWA/FO]

It will once Bloch produces the list

.

right.

Hey, those tranny red-eyes are real popular huh? Just checking the loads on swalife.com LAX-BWI.

 

[dicko]

SW isn't going anywhere and another merge is very unlikely.

You sir, are Fkin idiot.

Review history. I'd be laughing at you .... if my arse wasn't destined to be sitting 3 feet from yours.

I'm praying that you're actually a mongoloid sitting in a basement with a computer.


Edited: Oh thank god. He's a juice drinking wannabe. Praise little baby jesus.

 

[Lear70]

It's like you are using an argument only when it suits you. So do the SWAPA guys own the benefit of the great payraise? Do the AAI guys own the jets, and thus the captains seats? I think it would need to be a consistant argument one way or the other.

Is this the question you're referring to?

If it is, no one "owns" anything. In arbitration, it's a SENIORITY list integration. Not pay, not benefits, not my current quality of life. Nothing else. Except seniority.

Therefore, I expect a negotiated deal to leave much of the other things out of the equation and concentrate on what is fair IN TERMS OF SENIORITY at the end of the day. The bottom line is that none of us are going to agree on where that is. To attempt to find agreement on this forum on a topic so volatile is an exercise in futility. The best that can be obtained is "perspective" on where everyone else is coming from.

At the end of the day, many of us may not like what comes down the pipeline, one way or the other, but the only thing I have control of is my own attitude: how I treat my coworkers, how I treat our customers, and how I treat my family at the end of every trip. That's my work ethic.

YMMV

 

[waveflyer]

The reason pay matters to seniority is bc we all base our career choices on our best educated guess on pay, stability, bases, and type flying.-
Stop pretending it doesn't matter- that's a lie-

 

[jonjuan]

The reason pay matters to seniority is bc we all base our career choices on our best educated guess on pay, stability, bases, and type flying.-
Stop pretending it doesn't matter- that's a lie-

Stil haven't told us where you "did your time" and worked harder than most holding out for the dream job.

 

[dicko]

Stil haven't told us where you "did your time" and worked harder than most holding out for the dream job.

Three of the pilots I know at SWA came straight out of a J32 on their first interview. All of them are great people and utterly unremarkable.

"Worked harder" is a myth that makes people feel better when it takes them 5-10 years to get hired. It makes them feel special.

 

[On Your Six]

Better pay, better work rules, more days off, more base choices, better corporate culture, better QOL over all. Who gives a damn if you lose %32 seniority. SW isn't going anywhere and another merge is very unlikely. Hey Airtran guys; just enjoy your winning lotto ticket, and stop complaining. I forgot to add. If you can't live on 150k as an FO and getting 15-18 days off a month you should really reevaluate your life.

More bases to move to, you say? What if they have lived in ATL for years? The old lady's parents live there? Better QOL? On reserve forever? Can you guarantee NOT another merger? $150k a year is great until you can't sell your house, have 2 mortgages after you have to buy an extra home in Juarez, Mexico (across from the new crew base in El Paso, it's cheaper to live in Juarez these days) and then have to buy "friends" (bodyguards) just to get to work each day in ELP. That $150k is gone before you know it. Hasta la vista, baby!



OYS

 

[scoreboardII]

Anybody figured out yet that both sides are being played by SWA?

The cheapest, easiest solution has been presented, convoluted beyond imagination.

Who really wins, who really pays for this deal in the end?

Mr. Smith will now come and assimilate me back into the matrix.

 

[On Your Six]

shortsighted

Think implementation

Think binding. Then think USAPA. GK wont like it.


OYS

 

[dicko]

Anybody figured out yet that both sides are being played by SWA?

The cheapest, easiest solution has been presented, convoluted beyond imagination.

Who really wins, who really pays for this deal in the end?

Mr. Smith will now come and assimilate me back into the matrix.

Does this have anything to do with your casual enquiry regarding the status of Alaska poolies, and whether they have to re interview ?

 

[scoreboardII]

No, I have a bud who was a day or three from starting class and they said thanks, don't come.

 

[Whataburger]

More bases to move to, you say? What if they have lived in ATL for years? The old lady's parents live there? Better QOL? On reserve forever? Can you guarantee NOT another merger? $150k a year is great until you can't sell your house, have 2 mortgages after you have to buy an extra home in Juarez, Mexico (across from the new crew base in El Paso, it's cheaper to live in Juarez these days) and then have to buy "friends" (bodyguards) just to get to work each day in ELP. That $150k is gone before you know it. Hasta la vista, baby!



OYS

Geez, WOULD YOU PLEASE BRING YOUR B-777 and B747-4 RATE UP TO OUR B-717 RATE, YOU'RE KILLING us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ASADFW7]

Dicko, I do not care where you sit, there are a hell of a lot more first officers to deal with at SWA that won't put up with your crap, if you actually get to fly with us.

 

[Lear70]

The reason pay matters to seniority is bc we all base our career choices on our best educated guess on pay, stability, bases, and type flying.-
Stop pretending it doesn't matter- that's a lie-

Speak for yourself there, chief. Back when I was a 727 Captain and we found out our company was going out of business, I had job offers at places that paid more (Netjets) but took a regional (PCL) by CHOICE because I wanted to build my 121 PIC time so I could make it to a Major carrier.

I got interview offers from both Northwest and a 2nd bite at United while I was at AirTran; I didn't go to either interview. I liked my job at AirTran, my quality of life, the people I flew with, I thought it would be "the next Southwest" as a fast up-and-coming operator with low costs, brand new jets, and I was having fun. Same reason I never re-updated my application at Southwest when the window re-opened and my 6 months had passed from my last interview.

After 3 years of making the same money flying Lears and Falcons that I would have as an AAI F/O but flying nights, weekends, getting 9 days off a month, and hardly seeing my family as a result, I have an even GREATER respect for my quality of life over money, which is the reason I bid max days off and weekends off in MCO, regardless of what line credit that gives me.

Sometimes people make choices based SOLELY on their quality of life. Despite how much more income they MIGHT make in the future. It's fine that you don't do that. I have.

Tell you what... I'll give you every DIME of my increased income from this deal and you give me relative seniority so that I can keep my quality of life and upgrade when my number would come up (about 6-7 more years instead of 12-15). How's that?

Here's one last thing for you to ponder. We offered SWA to not pay us SWA rates until we transitioned over the line in training and INSTEAD give ALL that money from now 'til then to the SWA pilots in exchange for even HALF of where we'd be with Date of Hire (a 4-5% decrease in the relative seniority hit we take). It was over $100 Million directly to your pilots. SWAPA said no. Do you know why? Because your Negotiating Committee wanted seniority over money.

Guess it's not all about the money.

 

[Lear70]

Anybody figured out yet that both sides are being played by SWA?

The cheapest, easiest solution has been presented, convoluted beyond imagination.

Who really wins, who really pays for this deal in the end?

Mr. Smith will now come and assimilate me back into the matrix.

You said it... I didn't.

 

[Lear70]

And by the way, Wave, you asked me where I'd be with Date of Hire?

I'd go from the 26% decrease in relative seniority to a 12% decrease in relative seniority. Nearly 1,500 people less above me on the list, at least 7-8 years closer to upgrade (half my current, projected time), and holding the same Quality of Life I hold now in my same base.

Everyone's in a different spot. 1/4 of our F/O's at the bottom would still be at the bottom. 1/4 of our CA's at the top would still be in roughly the same place they are now. Everyone else does considerably better.

 

[Sacha]

Lear 70

After 6 years of contract negotiations that went nowhere, were you one of the 98% that voted to strike? On one hand you tell us life was so great that you didn't want to go anywhere else like United, Northwest or Southwest but then you are so angry that you voted to shut the airline down. That's an interesting way of looking at your career to say the least. I am afraid Im throwing the BS flag.

 

[Ty Webb]

Sacha-

UPS, Fedex and Hawaiian have taken strike votes. Did that make those jobs less desirable, or did it make them more desirable, in the long run?

During SLI arbitration, did the fact that NWA had taken many strike votes over the decades, and actually struck, have any effect whatsoever on the arbitrated SLI ? Of course not.

Btw, you guys should probably consider yourselves lucky that the Merger Announcement came before we got closer to being released by the NMB, or the difference between your pay rates and ours could have been much smaller, and you would have lost that bargaining chip altogether.

 

[Whine Lover]

A few points to ponder:

( A relative of mine is an 8 year Airtran Captain.)

We were discussing yesterday his absolutely crappy schedules ( redeyes etc. ) even after 8 years and being in the top 1/3 of the seniority list.

Apparently, he will lose about 36% of his Seniority with the current proposal.

It dawned on me that SWA doesn't even DO redeyes, and that they have schedules that allow AM and PM bidding so you are not "all over the clock" so to speak, and as well can actually plan a commute. It seems that SWA has more flexibility in scheduling, bidding,trading, days off, etc.

SO...It seems to me, that.... even with a loss of relative Seniority, there is a very good possibility that his QOL will increase as far as schedules, commute, and lifestyle are concerned. (?)

Discuss.


YKMKR

 

[jonjuan]

Btw, you guys should probably consider yourselves lucky that the Merger Announcement came before we got closer to being released by the NMB, or the difference between your pay rates and ours could have been much smaller, and you would have lost that bargaining chip altogether.

Truer words have never been said. A merger announcement 3 months later and we'd be looking at a completely different ball of wax.

 

[Fubijaakr]

....you would have lost that bargaining chip altogether.

Personally, I'd stop reinforcing the idea that pay even IS a bargaining chip. It is not. It is only in the context of seniority of Captain upgrade time.

 

[Sacha]

Ty,

Put the strike vote in context with his story. Not too many fedex or ups guys bailing to go elsewhere unless they can't handle night cargo. They are using muscle to improve already good contracts because they can. Big difference. If Airtran is in a parallel universe with Fedex, Northwest etc.then why do we have 200 or more former Airtran guys at SWA? How many former SWA guys do you have at Airtran?....None. Why? I regularly fly with several former Airtran guys so I have heard in detail what it is like. That's why I threw the BS flag. After further review the call still stands. Will this matter in arbitration?
Nope. If there are some pilots here that can't see the BS in Lears story, I can assure you an arbitrator sure as hell won't.