SWAPA is a joke

[waveflyer]

What are the growth predictions?

Nothing you don't already know- but everyone thinks huge growth is coming once we get past this.
http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2011/06/07/southwest-ceo-growth-overseas-could-benefit-bwi/

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...eet-in-2013-to-end-longest-no-growth-era.html

 

[jonjuan]

Good luck with that. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

What are the growth predictions?

Guess that depends on who you talk to. My prediction is zero in the next ten to fifteen years unless a major carrier ceases to exist. That may be a bit optimistic if anything.

 

[8v8tr]

U swampa guys are unreal. AT has taken it in the shorts...big time, as most guys are taking a 30-40% reduction in seniority. 649 FO's are being stapled to the bottom of the list and if they are over 40 they will never upgrade...ever!

some culture you have there! more like a cult! Stick your "oneluv" BS where the sun don't shine cause all that is is BS.

The sad part is this is quickly becoming AW/USAir. Wont be any different then what the AT guys are used to so you all will have a huge change coming.

you can keep your turd sandwich, I am a NO NO NO NO NO vote.

And I sure hope you Swampa boys vote it down so the blood is on you hands and GK will have to deal with you and not us.

Arbitration will keep the CA seats and worse case be DOH area, not this turd. Good luck boys

Godspeed...rant over

 

[GuppyWN]

Feel better?

Now let's break out the calculator and tally your earnings, retirement, profit sharing and reduced benefit costs for the remainder of your career and we'll clearly see that your career expectations have been met.

Congratulations!
Gup

 

[redflyer65]

Exactly right Gup. Those FO's get immediate AAI captain upgrade pay.

 

[Wesb737fo]

That's great..... can I lock in those rates for the next 10 years?

 

[Wesb737fo]

It's not a CLI (contract list integration) it's a SLI. Seniority List Integration.

 

[canyonblue]

649 FO's are being stapled to the bottom of the list and if they are over 40 they will never upgrade...ever!

How many of those 649 had an application at SWA? They would have left to be at the bottom of SWA last year, but now all of a sudden it's abhorrent. You guys need to realize that your percentages have to omit our top 27%. Go ahead and vote it down, I'm sure you'll do better in arbitration. The problem is, you already know that your majority can't wait to vote yes.

 

[8v8tr]

Feel better?

Now let's break out the calculator and tally your earnings, retirement, profit sharing and reduced benefit costs for the remainder of your career and we'll clearly see that your career expectations have been met.

Congratulations!
Gup

Gup, you and I both know that money and contracts come and go...seniority is everything in this business...everything!

What is to say a concessionary contract is not around the corner? I know the history of SWA and it is never happend but either had 9/11 till 9/11.

I am happy to get a raise, no question there, but at what expense, never having a weekend or holiday off, or being able to see my kids play ball, ect. QOL is much much more important to most if not all pilots!

This is not just about money Gup! How bout this I will take relative or even date of hire and keep my current money at AT, how do you think that would go over? Not only will we rule the list in about 10 years, but you will have a B-scale group on your hands for MGMT to exploit. Sounds fun.

My point is is that the SLI is equitable, but no way shape or form fair. And you know this also.

And for REDFlyer, no I have never applied to SWA. I would have like to work for SWA but at the time I did not think it was a good investment for me and my family to spend $10k, for a 737 type to maybe get and interview, to maybe get a job. And we both know the %'s that get the interview w/o a type. Just a poor investement at the time working at a regional for $30k a year.

oh yea, do feel better thanks for asking!!

 

[waveflyer]

8v8tr-
I think you see the complication- your group is much younger. If you got relative or DOH- in 10 years you would dominate the list and be senior to our older group for the rest of our careers. is it "fair" for a swa hire who was on pace to retire at 100, be pushed down and retire at a paltry #800-900, bc swa bought you? In many cases that's what happens with DOH. And relative's worse.

It's tough, the sane and non-narcissistic among us know that it might be tough on you guys short term- but we feel the money and better mgmt and bases and growth potential can make up for it, vs spending the next 30 years junior to you, in order to make the next 10 more "fair" to you.

You said this SLI was equitable, but not fair. I'm not sure "fair" exists anywhere- but equitable can be measured- as has been oft repeated- AT will be getting huge money, something most pilots give up seniority& QOL to get when they upgrade. (How many on your list chose to stay FOs for the seniority?) - so $$ is valuable, and AT cannot be the only one's to benefit.

As for the "contracts are temporary"- "seniority is forever" - let's look at reality- 9/11. Was 9/11 the sole cause of all the bad things that happened? Bc swa grew enormously after 9/11 bc their balance sheet was better. UAL, AA, AAA, well- everyone also had limited time to use the event to file BK and gut union contracts. Now look at usair, since everyone likes to compare that (irrationally)- their balance sheet was terribly weak, they furloughed thousands and then got bought by Amer West. Those furloughed pilots were then stapled. How was seniority forever there? How was seniority forever at pan am- or at eastern?

Bottom line - the company's bottom line matters more than the temporary value of the pilot contract. So does the relationship with the union and mgmt. Regardless of what the militant say- we have a very good relationship w/ mgmt. We do not, and aren't going to get paid an unsustainable amount.

So there is a risk that our contract could go south- but if you look at our company's bottom line, all those arguments are just not likely. We are financially the strongest airline in history. Let that sink in. (and remember how long it took airlines to fail who weren't 10% as strong as us) A whole lot would have to change and change fast for you to have a bad career. And you have to weigh the chances of that happening vs this deal.

 

[redflyer65]

And for REDFlyer, no I have never applied to SWA. I would have like to work for SWA but at the time I did not think it was a good investment for me and my family to spend $10k, for a 737 type to maybe get and interview, to maybe get a job. And we both know the %'s that get the interview w/o a type. Just a poor investement at the time working at a regional for $30k a year.

I can completely understand that. As a matter of fact I didn't have my type when I interviewed, but got it later..so we are on the same page there.

I don't mean to sound calus or look like I'm slinging in mud, but even in arbitration most the AAI FO's would probably go toward the bottom (and I believe your MC knew that). There's alot here that may not be fair, neither one of us signed up for this, that's for sure. I hope at some point we can put this all in the past and work very hard together.

RF

 

[GuppyWN]

Gup, you and I both know that money and contracts come and go...seniority is everything in this business...everything!

And it's useless if your airline goes broke or stagnates.

What is to say a concessionary contract is not around the corner? I know the history of SWA and it is never happend but either had 9/11 till 9/11.

We've got 1700 new bodies to help us keep the bar up....... right?

I am happy to get a raise, no question there, but at what expense, never having a weekend or holiday off, or being able to see my kids play ball, ect. QOL is much much more important to most if not all pilots!

Cry me a river! I guess you'll see no need to bid captain and go back to the bottom then........ right?

This is not just about money Gup! How bout this I will take relative or even date of hire and keep my current money at AT, how do you think that would go over? Not only will we rule the list in about 10 years, but you will have a B-scale group on your hands for MGMT to exploit. Sounds fun.

It's too late to call the deal off. All we can do is vote!

My point is is that the SLI is equitable, but no way shape or form fair. And you know this also.

You got the equitable and nobody got the fair. That doesn't help Gup out much.

Suck it up and get on with life. I'm not happy about it either!

Gup

 

[scoreboardII]

U swampa guys are unreal. AT has taken it in the shorts...big time, as most guys are taking a 30-40% reduction in seniority. 649 FO's are being stapled to the bottom of the list and if they are over 40 they will never upgrade...ever!

some culture you have there! more like a cult! Stick your "oneluv" BS where the sun don't shine cause all that is is BS.

The sad part is this is quickly becoming AW/USAir. Wont be any different then what the AT guys are used to so you all will have a huge change coming.

you can keep your turd sandwich, I am a NO NO NO NO NO vote.

And I sure hope you Swampa boys vote it down so the blood is on you hands and GK will have to deal with you and not us.

Arbitration will keep the CA seats and worse case be DOH area, not this turd. Good luck boys

Godspeed...rant over

Just wanted to save this tidbit for future use.

 

[8v8tr]

Wave, red and Gup... all valid points and I agree, we are a much younger group, Ie, the SLI slanted to your side, and I am smart enough to know that you all bought us. My rant is mostly about the guys on your side, here, and on pprune and even some on SWAlife saying that they (SWA) is going to vote it down cause it is not good? Come on this is very good for you guys, most everyone except the top 1653 gain close to 12% senority and have 140, plus 53 orders to grow the combined companies. I agree lets get this crap done and move on, I just wish the garbage would stop. Remember one day we will fly together and nobody, especially me want a crappy enviornment to work in.

 

[8v8tr]

Just wanted to save this tidbit for future use.

Scoreboard save your tidbit for whatever you want...but my point is some SWAPA guys are being unrealistic in this whole thing. If this was not a total windfall for you guys then there would not have been a 19-0 vote by your BOD.

And to be fair some AT guys are not being relistic either, but I blast them to on our own private boards.

The point is it will never be possible to make everyone happy, the MEC/BOD will be looking for 50+1% is all they need to pass.

 

[boeing717]

Scoreboard save your tidbit for whatever you want...but my point is some SWAPA guys are being unrealistic in this whole thing. If this was not a total windfall for you guys then there would not have been a 19-0 vote by your BOD.

And to be fair some AT guys are not being relistic either, but I blast them to on our own private boards.

The point is it will never be possible to make everyone happy, the MEC/BOD will be looking for 50+1% is all they need to pass.

Airtran will vote and it will pass. The First Officers will get over it.

 

[canyonblue]

Come on this is very good for you guys, most everyone except the top 1653 gain close to 12% senority and have 140, plus 53 orders to grow the combined companies..

Very good? Seriously? Like you say what good does a 12% boost in seniority do me if we have a downturn in the economy, or worse. Guys flying at AAI who are years junior to me, will stay Captains and make more than me. You say that "Seniority is everything in this business...everything!" just what exactly does that 12% do for me just incase as you put it "money and contracts come and go", please explain.

 

[8v8tr]

Very good? Seriously? Like you say what good does a 12% boost in seniority do me if we have a downturn in the economy, or worse. Guys flying at AAI who are years junior to me, will stay Captains and make more than me. You say that "Seniority is everything in this business...everything!" just what exactly does that 12% do for me just incase as you put it "money and contracts come and go", please explain.

ok very good, maybe a stretch, but good if not fair is a better word.

I will say if you did not have this then you would be worse off right? since now you have more people behind you then before? So you protections are greater, and with the predicted growth you will upgrade faster. There is probably only about 100 guys junior to you that will be capts anyhow. but dont know the exact number, could be higher. but remember in every arbitrated award CA always kept there seats. FWIW

 

[scoreboardII]

8v8tr, your MEC already has it's 50+1%.

Every captain get's his seat for life, thats 50%.

Some on the bottom FO list want over no matter what, thats the 1%.

Everyone gets our pay Apr 2012, It's a done deal.