JBLU Management Answers Back

[Dizel8]

2. Good thing I'm on my wifes insurance

Now why would you be on your wife's insurance?

 

[tico]

Well put Dizel8. I only have this to add....read and re-read Flying the Line part 1...The hard part for direct-entry military guys....They were "management " for their entire career....hard lessons for those guys....some can never admit to stepping down into the "enlisted ranks" which is what an airline gig is.

 

[Dizel8]

BB,

I have to ask, why do we have trip rigs, duty rigs, per diem, 16 hr duty days, 8hr flight time limits, min guarantee and a multitude of other things? Do we have these things because management thought we should have them, after all these things increases their cost and reduces their flexibility or do we have these thing because unified pilots fought for them?


Are you really of the opinion, that management would have provided us these things if other pilots hadn't already set a precedent?

 

[Helos2Galaxy]

... you didn't expect them to play nice did u?

 

[Fubijaakr]

Well put Dizel8. I only have this to add....read and re-read Flying the Line part 1...The hard part for direct-entry military guys....They were "management " for their entire career....hard lessons for those guys....some can never admit to stepping down into the "enlisted ranks" which is what an airline gig is.

This post should be mandatory reading for every military aviator the day he gets his first airline job.

 

[$$$4nothin]

And this is why JB hired jokers like $$$4nothin.

Why am I a Joker. Is it because I want to increase my QOL in every way, and B6 will do this. Is it because I have planned my life realistically as to what airlines offer as a career, no matter hard we all fight to make it better. I would love to hear your suggestion as to what one should do. Shall all of us regional guys hold out until SW, or Fedex call us. Just curious if you have a good opinion as a good alternative or just doing some name calling because you are pissed at your current situation. If so I understand this because my current company pisses me off also.

 

[$$$4nothin]

Now why would you be on your wife's insurance?

Because it is much better insurance at a better price.

 

[sniper]

I've accepted the fact that ALPA will probably win the election this time around. I'll be relieved. Because if they were defeated, the same group would either protest the results or then try TWU or some other trucking union. I'll be grateful to pay out the $5000/year dues for the 2-3 years it's going to take to get our first contract-- while maintaining status quo on pay and benefits. That's a pretty expensive ALPA decal...

The battle cry is "We want industry standard!" Please check out the pay rates of other E190 operators. Our JBLU E190 FOs make more money than Republic's E190 Captains. http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc.html
Jetblue leads the industry in pay for the E190s.

The ALPA supporters pick and choose the great parts of every contract out there as their promise for greener pastures. Really? Our first contract will most likely be concessionary no matter what these ALPA supporters will tell you, that is just a fact of first contracts. What if we do end up with industry standard-- like no more pay protection for lost legs or trips due to IROP (APA-American). Or how about 50% pay for deadheads (ALPA-UAL). Be careful what you ask for, because these are examples of industry standards.

I love Democrats!!![/QUOT







5000 THOUSAND? Whats your Jetblue salary 250 k per year?

ALPA gets 1.9 percent

 

[Dizel8]

Because it is much better insurance at a better price.

Hey, I am not blaming you for doing so, but it's real funny when I hear anti union jetblue pilots say this, when we are discussing jetblue benefits. Maybe, just maybe, we should try and negotiate some better benefits, including Medical and retirement.

Asking nicely for it hasn't turned out so well.

 

[Dizel8]

BB said:

"The ALPA supporters pick and choose the great parts of every contract out there as their promise for greener pastures. Really? Our first contract will most likely be concessionary no matter what these ALPA supporters will tell you, that is just a fact of first contracts. What if we do end up with industry standard"

First question would be, and this should be an easy one for you, you do claim to know. Which first contracts have been concessionary under ALPA, it would be great if you can supply us with some examples?

Secondly, ALPA hasn't "promised" us anything other than the ability to collectively bargain, I certainly haven't heard any guarantees that we will get this or that. All we will get is a legally recognized seat at the table. Now, while there are no guarantees, there are certain things that we might get, things that are currently not available to us under the current rules, such as a separate 401(k) plan, separate medical plan. Of course, perhaps you don't need such things, if you use TriCare and have a good Military retirement.

 

[Flyby1206]

I am going to get seriously blasted by every pro-union guy on here, but i'll put on my fire proof suit. Please read this:

http://www.swelblog.com/articles/autos-airlines-and-the-question-of-union-relevance.html

The Journal continues: “Mr. King's dilemma is evident in his lukewarm response to the Big Three's opening gambit in this year's quadrennial contract talks, an offer of enlarged profit-sharing. Here's the problem: Incentive pay is earned pay; workers see profits as something businesses create, not something union bosses create. And the foreign transplants will only be too happy to compete on the basis of performance-related pay. If the industry is headed toward compensation based on success, what are workers getting for their UAW dues?”

I see it clearly as a way to better align the interests of workers and management across an entire business cycle and as a way to avoid the crazy cycle of take/give/take and the resulting bad blood and mistrust between union leadership, employees and management.

Think about this: If variable compensation was in place following the concessionary period of 1993 – 1995, workers would have gained far more between 1996 – 2001, the most profitable period in airline history when U.S. airlines earned in excess of $40 billion. Instead employees received nothing with few exceptions.

 

[aewanabe]

Because it is much better insurance at a better price.

I'll try to address this without flaming you. I came from the same place you are coming from. It is about 5 times better here. I have no problem with you coming here to better your life, Blue will do that for you.

That being said, when I came from Regional X (and I was in the top 400 when I left) I paid more here for crappier insurance. At the original payscale on the 190 I would never have broken even without upgrading. (My prayer at the time was to get onto the bus after 2 years, and it only took 4). My point? It should be TEN TIMES better here. Go ahead, be excited to work here and get out of regional hell. Welcome aboard. But Please, for the love of Bedford don't for a minute tell us that because it's better than freakin' RAH we don't need improvements. Fly a few months in our shoes first.

 

[sayagain?]

JB is hiring these pilots from the regionals and the new hires are happy as $hit! For most, is a step up for them. They seem to be content with what they currently have and don't want to cause any waves with the union vote. Well, work here for a few years and you'll change your mind. Look long term!

As for the comment about using your spouse's insurance, well, I'm glad you have that option. Most don't and that's why we're fighting for change. And the only way we can get that is through a CBA.

 

[StopNTSing]

BB, you need to wake up and smell the coffee: B6 will be acquired by someone within the next five years.....ten at the outside. Maybe AA, maybe SWA (hope not!), maybe LCC. When that happens you will definitely want to be unionized!

 

[HA25]

Congratulations ALPA drive organizers. Your JB management has now suspended our 5 amendments to our PEA contracts. These improvements were within weeks of being achieved and would have been additional items on the negotiating table for our first contract if we went the ALPA route... Instead, ALPA filed at the worst possible time to the NMB.

This action has proved two things. One, that ALPA, before we are even members of the organization, has already screwed up for us. And two, that for those who think this JB management team will be amicable negotiators across the table from us, you're living in a dream world!!!

wow dude... you are one of those guys I hear about, eh?

lost cause.

 

[StarChecker]

I'll try to address this without flaming you. I came from the same place you are coming from. It is about 5 times better here. I have no problem with you coming here to better your life, Blue will do that for you.

That being said, when I came from Regional X (and I was in the top 400 when I left) I paid more here for crappier insurance. At the original payscale on the 190 I would never have broken even without upgrading. (My prayer at the time was to get onto the bus after 2 years, and it only took 4). My point? It should be TEN TIMES better here. Go ahead, be excited to work here and get out of regional hell. Welcome aboard. But Please, for the love of Bedford don't for a minute tell us that because it's better than freakin' RAH we don't need improvements. Fly a few months in our shoes first.

This is exactly what I was about type. I too am a CHQ alum and touting the fact that quality of life and pay get better when you come to B6 from CHQ is settling at best. It's supposed to be better....it's why you come here. That doesn't mean being satisfied with below industry average when compared to other majors.

As far as the union vote....you should be turned off to unions after being a Teamster. The resources ALPA brings to the table are unparalleled. I met 15 ALPA people in Oct and was floored when they reviewed their individual departments' functions. It was impressive. They have 15 guys who sit in cubicles all day and plan PILOT retirement and health insurance plans. Who does that for us now?

Now do I have to pay for the 15 guys in cubicles?....yes....1.95%. It is a sound investment....because no one has the resources to make these improvements now at JetBlue.

When you get here...you'll be pumped on blue juice for a year. Trust those of us who have been here....we need this and we need it now. Don't settle for below average across the board just because it's better than CHQ....that's not saying much.

 

[amcflyboy]

BB, you need to wake up and smell the coffee: B6 will be acquired by someone within the next five years.....ten at the outside. Maybe AA, maybe SWA (hope not!), maybe LCC. When that happens you will definitely want to be unionized!

Yeah well I heard that JB will be buying AA....

 

[thruthemurk]

DING DING DING.... My first and ONLY airline. Isn't that a rare thing nowadays!!! 12 years and counting... How many other ALPA careers follow this kind of path?

Nifty Fifty Alert!! This says it all. You are a genius! Thank god ALPA wasnt here to destroy your meteoric rise. The "failed" airlines you reference have been around 75 years with dozens of managers.

Nothing is forever, you might come down off the pedestal and pick up a history book.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Nothing is forever, you might come down off the pedestal and pick up a history book.

Those who do not know history are doomed to relive it.

 

[$$$4nothin]

JB is hiring these pilots from the regionals and the new hires are happy as $hit! For most, is a step up for them. They seem to be content with what they currently have and don't want to cause any waves with the union vote. Well, work here for a few years and you'll change your mind. Look long term!

As for the comment about using your spouse's insurance, well, I'm glad you have that option. Most don't and that's why we're fighting for change. And the only way we can get that is through a CBA.

I am not sure why all of you guys think that those of us comeing from the regionals are going to be content with what we have. Ya. It is a huge step up, and yes that will make a new hire happy. However I have spent the last 6 years at my regional trying to make it better in every way, so I am sure I will spend the next 30 (hopefully) at B6 trying to do the same. Dont just assume we are all a bunch of "Jokers" just because we are a happy. Seeing a lot of happy B6 pilots in my JS over the years is why I applied in the first place.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You can still be happy and be unionized. Ask the next SWA pilot you see.

 

[waveflyer]

You can still be happy and be unionized. Ask the next SWA pilot you see.

+1

There is simply an appropriate way to do business. Would you buy a car on a handshake? Buy a house where the terms weren't spelled out and gone over exactly. Your career is bigger than any of that.
Does your CEO have a legal and binding contract?

Those who you can truly trust and will do right by you have no problem putting it in writing.

If JBlu mgmt were truly worried about ALPa national they would have not played the same fear-mongering game when you tried to go in-house.
Like Herb did.

Do not brush aside that swa is the most heavily unionized airline in the world. It proves everything I just said.

 

[BeachBummer]

DING DING DING.... My first and ONLY airline. Isn't that a rare thing nowadays!!! 12 years and counting... How many other ALPA careers follow this kind of path?

^^^Man, this explains soooooo much^^^

As for your question, nothing more than luck and a decision made with the best possible info at the time. Guys have been hired at the best carriers in thier 20's and been captains for years while others can't manage to keep a good job for half a decade. CONGRATS!! you are a lucky one. I hope you stay lucky man. history says you probably won't but I hope you do.

 

[B6Busdriver]

I am not sure why all of you guys think that those of us comeing from the regionals are going to be content with what we have. Ya. It is a huge step up, and yes that will make a new hire happy. However I have spent the last 6 years at my regional trying to make it better in every way, so I am sure I will spend the next 30 (hopefully) at B6 trying to do the same. Dont just assume we are all a bunch of "Jokers" just because we are a happy. Seeing a lot of happy B6 pilots in my JS over the years is why I applied in the first place.

I have flown with a lot of new folks recently. I think many thought this place was different but it's not. It might be better than your previous carrier but we have a looooong way to go. I'm hearing familiar excuses from the new folks like....I haven't been here long so I am on the fence....or I don't want to lose what we have. What you have is nothing and can be changed via an e-mail, You have zero representation, the PVC is ineffective and a student council at best.

Listen and make your decision wisely. I GUARANTEE you if this drive fails there will be another one within two years. That will be two years of WASTED time. We may not have much time left and could very well be sold by then.

 

[SpeedBird]

When United-Continental and Delta-Northwest pilots leave and form their own in-house unions (and they will, it only makes sense with the $$$$millions they keep to themselves), what will ALPA look like then? What will our dues look like to keep up with their fixed costs? Who will be left? ALPA had their own employees strike against them... Great organization!!!

Our model at JBLU has worked for 12 years. It is unique. It is not perfect. But not one pilot here has lost his job to a furlough. Not one pilot has been asked to give back any pay. How many unionized carriers can state that fact? Heck Airtran, Spirit, Alaska, American, United, Continental, Delta, Northwest, Mesa, and a host of others HAVE furloughed... I look at facts... And I'll be the first to laugh at the furloughs we have under ALPA... Furlough clause or not (DALPA)... You can take that to the bank-- FACTS not rumors or speculations...

Show me cause and effect (i.e., ALPA on property was a direct cause for pilot furloughs, vice bad management decisions). Only then will your argument will have any merit. Right now your supposed "facts" do not cut it and only look like management talking points. I must ask you; have you been sharing pillow talk with Jenny lately?

 

[Fubijaakr]

Show me cause and effect (i.e., ALPA on property was a direct cause for pilot furloughs, vice bad management decisions). Only then will your argument will have any merit.

But they never have any merit. BB is the kind of guy who came directly from the military.

He thinks he's management. Unfortunately he's just BLUE collar labor...another enlisted puke with flying skills.

 

[SpeedBird]

But they never have any merit. BB is the kind of guy who came directly from the military.

He thinks he's management. Unfortunately he's just BLUE collar labor...another enlisted puke with flying skills.

So what is your point about the military Fubi? I also came from the military (retired) directly to B6 and it didn't seem to cloud my view on the need for union representation in this industry. I can assume that at least BB served his country honorably doing what he loves most. We are all blue-collar for sure in this industry, however my military experience gave me more skills and abilities than just knowing how to fly an aircraft from point A to point B, and I am grateful for that fact each day in this lousy business. BTW, equating BB as just "another enlisted puke" shows your apparent ignorance about the high value the "enlisted" man/woman contributes to the success of our military.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Please, speedbird, don't get your panties in a wad. The point is that most of the guys who retire then go to the airlines are senior officers (O-5/O-6). They are total management mentality.

I didn't use the term "enlisted puke" to denigrate anyone. It was just to illustrate that we, as pilots, are merely the foot soldiers. We don't inhabit "officer country" any more and need to adjust our thinking to embrace the fact that we're just rank and file labor.

In fact, B6 does you guys a favor by dressing you in TSA blue. What more illustration do you need that you're just blue collar labor, whose costs can be cut at the whim of the guys in the management suite.

 

[waveflyer]

So what is your point about the military Fubi? I also came from the military (retired) directly to B6 and it didn't seem to cloud my view on the need for union representation in this industry. I can assume that at least BB served his country honorably doing what he loves most. We are all blue-collar for sure in this industry, however my military experience gave me more skills and abilities than just knowing how to fly an aircraft from point A to point B, and I am grateful for that fact each day in this lousy business. BTW, equating BB as just "another enlisted puke" shows your apparent ignorance about the high value the "enlisted" man/woman contributes to the success of our military.

You know- I don't disagree. But I'd love to see the Mil guys go after the ones that give you your bad rep, then the Civilian guy who points it out.

 

[SpeedBird]

Is that the best you can do Fubi?

You are the type of pilot that gives unions bad names (knuckle-dragging goon), and if you want to promote the union cause and its true value to the fence-sitters and other non-believers, then get your sorry pathetic arse of these pilot boards and go ice yourself on some remote hockey rink. BTW, you're a laughing stock among your own at Alaska and I had some great laughs with some Alaska ALPA folks over your pilot buffoonery.

Now go run off and get lost, I need to go back to my pool and nurse a Corona.