JBLU Management Answers Back

[Frank Lorenzo]

I have been consulting with Dave and have assured him that bringing ALPO on property will be a profit windfall for the JBLU executives.

This is an exciting time with unlimited pay-gutting opportunities for JBLU management to foist upon the once-happy JBLU proletariat. Overtime pay? Gone. Trip rigs? Gone. Duty rigs? Gone. International and night overrides? Gone.

The best part is, is that the pilots will be PAYING dues to make all of this happen! I'm getting excited just talking about it!

If the JBLU pilots don't like it, they can go on strike. No risk involved whatsoever. It's not like there are THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of rj pilots out there willing to jump into the cockpit of an A320, or larger airlines willing to gobble up the assets of a Ch 7 or 11 JBLU.

Please vote for ALPO early and often!

 

[Dan Roman]

Anyone that thinks ALPA is the answer for JB is beyond crazy -- ALPA has literally screwed up every carrier they have represented. Why would JB want to be told what to do by DL and UA -- those carriers control ALPA and are not afraid to throw any other carriers under the bus at the drop of a hat.

Here in Hawaii, we had two of the smallest ALPA carriers. Aloha, which is gone because of a clear case of mismanagement. You would be hard pressed to find anyone from AQ that would blame ALPA for any part of it's demise. In fact, thanks to ALPA, the pilots at least lost a lot less than they would have had they been non union as management let their airline circle the drain. They maintained pay and benefits, what they could, much more than had they been non union. Aloha was a classic case of ALPA cannot prevent greedy or incompetent management, but the AQ folks were well served by ALPA.

At Hawaiian, the oldest airline in the U.S. we have certainly had some ups and downs since deregulation, but few are dissatisfied with ALPA and I haven't seen any indication of getting thrown under the bus as we have grown into one of the main transpac airlines competing against much larger DAL and UAL. We have actually gotten a lot of support from them over the years. We have made a lot of positive gains and are presently very well situated thanks to ALPA. We benefit from them in many many ways in a manner that we simply couldn't do if we were a stand alone union.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Email the PVC and ask how many times the ELT has cancelled meetings with the PVC in the past 3 months.

Ask the PVC how many meetings have been scheduled over the past 3 months with ELT to work on the documents.

In the past month the PVC has only met 5 days.

Sounds like the company scheduled/pay protected/appointed committee had the breaks applied for strategic purposes.

In the past 3 months there was a card campaign in progress-- what incentive is there from the company's standpoint to see this through until the ALPA thing is over? Right, none!!!

 

[Ty Webb]

What if we do end up with industry standard-- like no more pay protection for lost legs or trips due to IROP (APA-American). Or how about 50% pay for deadheads (ALPA-UAL). Be careful what you ask for, because these are examples of industry standards.!

No, they're not. They're examples of bankrupt carriers or cherry-picked examples posing as "average".

AirTran gets full pay for deadhead, full cancellation pay for any reason. Why would you expect any different?

What are you really afraid of? I would be much more afraid of being at a non-union carrier going forward than going with ALPA!

 

[Splert]

In the past 3 months there was a card campaign in progress-- what incentive is there from the company's standpoint to see this through until the ALPA thing is over? Right, none!!!

The company has had 12 years to deliver.

The PCRB wanted to address this issue and was blown off by leadership

 

[AKAAB]

The "documents", not contract amendments, were just about ready to be put in place? ALPA has prevented us from giving your these big improvements?

Where have I heard this before? Perhaps it was Russ Chew when the JBPA inhouse drive was announced. I seem to recall him telling the pilot group that they were just getting ready to make all of these great improvements for the pilots, but couldn't because of status quo rules. Three years later and we still haven't seen them.

The JBPA drive was defeated because enough pilots wanted to believe they intended to make improvements and trusted them when they said they had a workaround so they could improve our retirement. They lied. They had no legal workaround and we are in the boat today as we were three years ago.

It's classic anti-union playbook to get the uncommitted to think the company has been prevented from giving them some kind of grand improvements. Don't be duped. They lied again.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...thrice...

 

[DonVerita]

JetBlue pilots-

Please try to ignore the pro-management kool-aid drinkers amongst your ranks. They fall into 2 sub-categories:

A - I've got mine screw everyone else, don't rock the boat 'cause I'm senior and will be retireing soon.
B- - The apathetic, excuse-ridden, scared little mice afraid of their own shadow and of standing up for themselves.

AirTran pilots would not be in the elevated position they are today were it not for ALPA. It wasn't too long ago that we had a weak, disfunctional, ineffective in-house union called the NPA (National Pilots Association). It was a total disaster. It may have been OK back when we were a 500 pilot National sized airline (hence the name), but once we made the jump to Major airline status, just like you did, that required a whole new matrix, a new sense of getting our fair share of the airline that WE helped to build (just like you did with yours), and a new way of achieving our goals - the top of which was Scope & Merger protection. ALPA was there for us every step of the way. They provided far more in funds to us than they took in from dues. Without them, we would not be where we are today. Even now, during the SWA merger and SLI negotiations, they are still firmly with us and will remain so until the day that we move over to SWAPA.

Generally, in-house unions do not work. Why? Because they don't have the deep pockets, teams of lawyers, and vast resources to call upon like ALPA does. SWAPA works for SWA pilots because SWA has a very labor-friendly management team who puts employees first before customers or anyone else. In fact, SWA employees are referred to as "Internal Customers". Everyone else comes in 2nd and are referred to as, "External Customers". Contrast that to the way AirTran Management treats its employees - as a hinderance to management bonuses...and that's putting it mildly.

This is your party. ALPA will help you to the extent that you ask for, but you are still in charge, you make the final decisions. This is why it is important to do it right; get the facts, don't let some in your group make comparisons to Republic, Spirit, or any other airline that is not a Major.

Your unionization helps all unionized carriers, so by virtue of that alone, you can count on the support of all of ALPA and of all ALPA pilots. Should you achieve this, just remember that ALPA National is an umbrella that provides you protections and resources, but...You are only as strong as your MEC. So elect strong, far-sighted reps to your LEC who always put the pilots first in anything they do. Those LEC reps will then elect your MEC officers who should be of like-mind.

 

[Lake Alice]

BB,

Please explain to me what is contained in the documents that would actually help or protect us? Please explain to me how you can compare our 190 rates to Republics? We are supposed to be a major airline, right? If we are close to 190 pay rates with Republic and we are a major and they are not then how come their insurance is better than ours and our retirements are the same. Talk about picking and choosing.
Handing our future MEC a 78 seat starting point, alter-ego airline, 10% regional flying, inability to file a grievance, 40% insurance rates, no merger protection...that's right, M/B does not apply to us despite what your buddy Craine says. There is little, if anything, contained in those documents that are beneficial to Jetblue pilots.

Lastly, and let this sink in to your think skull, none of those documents are arguable in a court of law. They are policies and procedures and we cannot fight them. They mean nothing in a court of law!!!!!

 

[Fubijaakr]

No, they're not. They're examples of bankrupt carriers or cherry-picked examples posing as "average".

AirTran gets full pay for deadhead, full cancellation pay for any reason. Why would you expect any different?

What are you really afraid of? I would be much more afraid of being at a non-union carrier going forward than going with ALPA!

We get full pay/half-credit for our deadheads. Guys look for lines with lots of deadhead to increase their pay.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Your unionization helps all unionized carriers, so by virtue of that alone, you can count on the support of all of ALPA and of all ALPA pilots. Should you achieve this, just remember that ALPA National is an umbrella that provides you protections and resources, but...You are only as strong as your MEC. So elect strong, far-sighted reps to your LEC who always put the pilots first in anything they do. Those LEC reps will then elect your MEC officers who should be of like-mind.

Amen. This is the crux of the matter. ALPA haters point to the National office when pilots get poor contracts. In fact, all National can do is ADVISE individual MECs on the proper path to take.

In virtually all cases where a pilot group has experienced a bad outcome it was the LOCAL MEC who made a decision that was at odds with National advice.

B6 pilots and ALPA pilots in general need to commit your last three lines to memory. Elect a bunch of self-righteous, egotistical slugs and what do you get? USAPA.

 

[Deli Guy]

I've accepted the fact that ALPA will probably win the election this time around. I'll be relieved. Because if they were defeated, the same group would either protest the results or then try TWU or some other trucking union. I'll be grateful to pay out the $5000/year dues for the 2-3 years it's going to take to get our first contract-- while maintaining status quo on pay and benefits. That's a pretty expensive ALPA decal...

The battle cry is "We want industry standard!" Please check out the pay rates of other E190 operators. Our JBLU E190 FOs make more money than Republic's E190 Captains. http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc.html
Jetblue leads the industry in pay for the E190s.

The ALPA supporters pick and choose the great parts of every contract out there as their promise for greener pastures. Really? Our first contract will most likely be concessionary no matter what these ALPA supporters will tell you, that is just a fact of first contracts. What if we do end up with industry standard-- like no more pay protection for lost legs or trips due to IROP (APA-American). Or how about 50% pay for deadheads (ALPA-UAL). Be careful what you ask for, because these are examples of industry standards.

I love Democrats!!!

Industry standard came from a peer set. The 190 pay at other companies does not matter. The peer set is what was looked at. The company recognized that the Republic pay rates were not in the peer set. Stop shading the truth.

 

[Dan Roman]

All our contracts are membership ratified. ALPA National only signs off on what we want, not the other way around. As is well stated here, what you get is up to the individual airline, ALPA National is just a very good resource and partner, they do not dictate anything.

 

[Pilotbob3]

Congratulations ALPA drive organizers. Your JB management has now suspended our 5 amendments to our PEA contracts. These improvements were within weeks of being achieved and would have been additional items on the negotiating table for our first contract if we went the ALPA route... Instead, ALPA filed at the worst possible time to the NMB.

This action has proved two things. One, that ALPA, before we are even members of the organization, has already screwed up for us. And two, that for those who think this JB management team will be amicable negotiators across the table from us, you're living in a dream world!!!

I find it hard that someone thinks the way you do. It's scary. ALPA filed at the BEST possible time! The company doesn't want to NEGOTIATE with ALPA with a clean piece of paper. They wanted a subpar set of "mockuments" with pilot's signatures on it to create a negative foundation to keep us down.

I know I am wasting time trying to convince you to change your mind. You sound like a little kid stomping your feet. Why wouldn't JB mangement be amicaple negotiators? Why should they change from what you insinuate they are now? Revenge perhaps? It wouldn't make sense.

 

[Blue Dude]

Really? These documents were within weeks of a pilot vote. ALPA couldn't wait a few weeks after over a year of hard work by both sides? Give me a break-- try to spin it any way you want... But it was the poorest of timing!!!

I wrote this to you earlier. Did you even read it before hitting reply?

You seem to assume that the 5 documents would have had us negotiating from a position of strength. Instead, we would have spent a fair amount of negotiating capital just closing all the loopholes, much less achieving scope or M&A language worthy of the name. At least this way the company can't argue that we agreed to the weakest "protections" this side of Mesa and have established a precedent. I'd say the timing was pretty good.

It doesn't matter how close the documents were to being finished if they would have hurt us in negotiations. What part of that is unclear? You didn't even address this.

 

[banger]

played for a fool

Union or not I would not vote yes on the 5 mockuments. They are just a joke to occupy us and keep the illusion that management cares. BlueBayou you are being played for a fool

 

[OurMoney1]

A word of advice to the JBLU guys. Well done! Dont waste your time on individuals like BlueBayou. The sky is not falling and rhetoric is a waste of time at this point. You guys have this election in your sights now. Start planning phase II and pay no mind to the lounge lizards that can see only as far as their driveway mailbox.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

When United-Continental and Delta-Northwest pilots leave and form their own in-house unions (and they will, it only makes sense with the $$$$millions they keep to themselves), what will ALPA look like then? What will our dues look like to keep up with their fixed costs? Who will be left? ALPA had their own employees strike against them... Great organization!!!

Our model at JBLU has worked for 12 years. It is unique. It is not perfect. But not one pilot here has lost his job to a furlough. Not one pilot has been asked to give back any pay. How many unionized carriers can state that fact? Heck Airtran, Spirit, Alaska, American, United, Continental, Delta, Northwest, Mesa, and a host of others HAVE furloughed... I look at facts... And I'll be the first to laugh at the furloughs we have under ALPA... Furlough clause or not (DALPA)... You can take that to the bank-- FACTS not rumors or speculations...

 

[$$$4nothin]

A couple questions from a guy in the B6 pool. I have been doing as much reading on this ALPA topic as i can. Seeing how well teamsters has done at my current airline I have to admit I am not much of a pro union kind of guy at the moment. I do want what will be best for my career and family just like the rest of you so I do have a couple of questions.
1. Will ALPA be able to get that 10% of the flying the PVC gave away back.
2. I have heard the rumors of a B6 merger. Does this look like it is really a possibility, or is everyone just speculateing and guessing based on the current situation most airlines are in.
3. If ALPA does get voted in how long will it be until we are paying dues
4. When is the ammendable date of the contract
5. For all of you ALPA "major" guys in the know. How long does it take for ALPA to actually get a contract to the pilots to vote on.

 

[B6Busdriver]

A couple questions from a guy in the B6 pool. I have been doing as much reading on this ALPA topic as i can. Seeing how well teamsters has done at my current airline I have to admit I am not much of a pro union kind of guy at the moment. I do want what will be best for my career and family just like the rest of you so I do have a couple of questions.
1. Will ALPA be able to get that 10% of the flying the PVC gave away back.
2. I have heard the rumors of a B6 merger. Does this look like it is really a possibility, or is everyone just speculateing and guessing based on the current situation most airlines are in.
3. If ALPA does get voted in how long will it be until we are paying dues
4. When is the ammendable date of the contract
5. For all of you ALPA "major" guys in the know. How long does it take for ALPA to actually get a contract to the pilots to vote on.

1 The documents are dead. The company can do what they want.
2 A merger will definitely happen.....or not.
3 I think no dues until MEC structure complete.....correct me someone
4 They can amend anything they want when they want it.
5 Estimated 3 years

 

[$$$4nothin]

Our model at JBLU has worked for 12 years. It is unique. It is not perfect. But not one pilot here has lost his job to a furlough. Not one pilot has been asked to give back any pay. How many unionized carriers can state that fact? Heck Airtran, Spirit, Alaska, American, United, Continental, Delta, Northwest, Mesa, and a host of others HAVE furloughed... I look at facts... And I'll be the first to laugh at the furloughs we have under ALPA... Furlough clause or not (DALPA)... You can take that to the bank-- FACTS not rumors or speculations...

You do have some good points. I am very anti union (anti Teamsters to be exact) at the moment, but with the Legacy carriers retireing a cumulative 15000+ guys over the course of the next 15-20 years I would say furloughs aren't in the near future for many of us. Also, would you really laugh at your fellow B6 pilots that were furloughed, for any reason. That sucks, as I am soon to be at the bottom of your list I would probably be one of those guys.