JBLU Management Answers Back

[StarChecker]

Your distaste for unions is blinding you to the reality of the situation. There simply is no other way forward. I don't expect you to like it. I'm not sure I like it. But that's where we are. Blame an industry whose other potential merger partners are all unionized and well prepared to take advantage of our lack of a plan. Blame Federal tax law that won't allow our retirement funding from passing muster without massive company payouts ... or a CBA. Blame the company for taking joinder off the table while promoting a new era of the direct relationship, meaning we need to fight (and pay) individually each violation that may affect us all. But blame ALPA?

A perfectly crafted reply.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

You seem to assume that the 5 documents would have had us negotiating from a position of strength. Instead, we would have spent a fair amount of negotiating capital just closing all the loopholes, much less achieving scope or M&A language worthy of the name. At least this way the company can't argue that we agreed to the weakest "protections" this side of Mesa and have established a precedent. I'd say the timing was pretty good.

There have been improvements "just around the corner" for years running now. We got barely average pay for a step forward after the last drive failed, and a number of steps backward to make up for it. We've been unable to move forward in several critical areas because the law won't allow us to... without a CBA. There are no legal "workarounds". The 5 documents were intended to buy the company time, but when the details came out, most pilots saw through the sham, there was a new rush of interest cards and the vote is here. I'd say the "give us just one more chance" tactic is dead.

Your distaste for unions is blinding you to the reality of the situation. There simply is no other way forward. I don't expect you to like it. I'm not sure I like it. But that's where we are. Blame an industry whose other potential merger partners are all unionized and well prepared to take advantage of our lack of a plan. Blame Federal tax law that won't allow our retirement funding from passing muster without massive company payouts ... or a CBA. Blame the company for taking joinder off the table while promoting a new era of the direct relationship, meaning we need to fight (and pay) individually each violation that may affect us all. But blame ALPA?

Really? These documents were within weeks of a pilot vote. ALPA couldn't wait a few weeks after over a year of hard work by both sides? Give me a break-- try to spin it any way you want... But it was the poorest of timing!!!

 

[Splert]

I've accepted the fact that ALPA will probably win the election this time around. I'll be relieved. Because if they were defeated, the same group would either protest the results or then try TWU or some other trucking union. I'll be grateful to pay out the $5000/year dues for the 2-3 years it's going to take to get our first contract-- while maintaining status quo on pay and benefits. That's a pretty expensive ALPA decal...

The battle cry is "We want industry standard!" Please check out the pay rates of other E190 operators. Our JBLU E190 FOs make more money than Republic's E190 Captains. http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc.html
Jetblue leads the industry in pay for the E190s.

The ALPA supporters pick and choose the great parts of every contract out there as their promise for greener pastures. Really? Our first contract will most likely be concessionary no matter what these ALPA supporters will tell you, that is just a fact of first contracts. What if we do end up with industry standard-- like no more pay protection for lost legs or trips due to IROP (APA-American). Or how about 50% pay for deadheads (ALPA-UAL). Be careful what you ask for, because these are examples of industry standards.

I love Democrats!!!

The E190 is paid at peer average.

If you want to compare E190 to E190 then you have to accept A320 to A320 and the fact that then both the E190 and A320 are over paid using your metric.

The metric used by the PCRB was the industry metric of aircraft grouping or category. The E190 is a Group 4 Aircraft and the A320 is group 3 aircraft and so is SWA 737s and Alaska 737 and DAL 737s. If you want to play the highest paid 190 game then so are the A320 rates.

Do you really want average A320 rates?

50% DH is not industry standard instead it is a data point within the industry.

 

[Splert]

Really? These documents were within weeks of a pilot vote. ALPA couldn't wait a few weeks after over a year of hard work by both sides? Give me a break-- try to spin it any way you want... But it was the poorest of timing!!!

Email the PVC and ask how many times the ELT has cancelled meetings with the PVC in the past 3 months.

Ask the PVC how many meetings have been scheduled over the past 3 months with ELT to work on the documents.

In the past month the PVC has only met 5 days.

Sounds like the company scheduled/pay protected/appointed committee had the breaks applied for strategic purposes.

 

[Raoul Duke]

Anyone that thinks ALPA is the answer for JB is beyond crazy -- ALPA has literally screwed up every carrier they have represented. Why would JB want to be told what to do by DL and UA -- those carriers control ALPA and are not afraid to throw any other carriers under the bus at the drop of a hat.

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

I have been consulting with Dave and have assured him that bringing ALPO on property will be a profit windfall for the JBLU executives.

This is an exciting time with unlimited pay-gutting opportunities for JBLU management to foist upon the once-happy JBLU proletariat. Overtime pay? Gone. Trip rigs? Gone. Duty rigs? Gone. International and night overrides? Gone.

The best part is, is that the pilots will be PAYING dues to make all of this happen! I'm getting excited just talking about it!

If the JBLU pilots don't like it, they can go on strike. No risk involved whatsoever. It's not like there are THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of rj pilots out there willing to jump into the cockpit of an A320, or larger airlines willing to gobble up the assets of a Ch 7 or 11 JBLU.

Please vote for ALPO early and often!

 

[Dan Roman]

Anyone that thinks ALPA is the answer for JB is beyond crazy -- ALPA has literally screwed up every carrier they have represented. Why would JB want to be told what to do by DL and UA -- those carriers control ALPA and are not afraid to throw any other carriers under the bus at the drop of a hat.

Here in Hawaii, we had two of the smallest ALPA carriers. Aloha, which is gone because of a clear case of mismanagement. You would be hard pressed to find anyone from AQ that would blame ALPA for any part of it's demise. In fact, thanks to ALPA, the pilots at least lost a lot less than they would have had they been non union as management let their airline circle the drain. They maintained pay and benefits, what they could, much more than had they been non union. Aloha was a classic case of ALPA cannot prevent greedy or incompetent management, but the AQ folks were well served by ALPA.

At Hawaiian, the oldest airline in the U.S. we have certainly had some ups and downs since deregulation, but few are dissatisfied with ALPA and I haven't seen any indication of getting thrown under the bus as we have grown into one of the main transpac airlines competing against much larger DAL and UAL. We have actually gotten a lot of support from them over the years. We have made a lot of positive gains and are presently very well situated thanks to ALPA. We benefit from them in many many ways in a manner that we simply couldn't do if we were a stand alone union.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Email the PVC and ask how many times the ELT has cancelled meetings with the PVC in the past 3 months.

Ask the PVC how many meetings have been scheduled over the past 3 months with ELT to work on the documents.

In the past month the PVC has only met 5 days.

Sounds like the company scheduled/pay protected/appointed committee had the breaks applied for strategic purposes.

In the past 3 months there was a card campaign in progress-- what incentive is there from the company's standpoint to see this through until the ALPA thing is over? Right, none!!!

 

[Ty Webb]

What if we do end up with industry standard-- like no more pay protection for lost legs or trips due to IROP (APA-American). Or how about 50% pay for deadheads (ALPA-UAL). Be careful what you ask for, because these are examples of industry standards.!

No, they're not. They're examples of bankrupt carriers or cherry-picked examples posing as "average".

AirTran gets full pay for deadhead, full cancellation pay for any reason. Why would you expect any different?

What are you really afraid of? I would be much more afraid of being at a non-union carrier going forward than going with ALPA!

 

[Splert]

In the past 3 months there was a card campaign in progress-- what incentive is there from the company's standpoint to see this through until the ALPA thing is over? Right, none!!!

The company has had 12 years to deliver.

The PCRB wanted to address this issue and was blown off by leadership

 

[AKAAB]

The "documents", not contract amendments, were just about ready to be put in place? ALPA has prevented us from giving your these big improvements?

Where have I heard this before? Perhaps it was Russ Chew when the JBPA inhouse drive was announced. I seem to recall him telling the pilot group that they were just getting ready to make all of these great improvements for the pilots, but couldn't because of status quo rules. Three years later and we still haven't seen them.

The JBPA drive was defeated because enough pilots wanted to believe they intended to make improvements and trusted them when they said they had a workaround so they could improve our retirement. They lied. They had no legal workaround and we are in the boat today as we were three years ago.

It's classic anti-union playbook to get the uncommitted to think the company has been prevented from giving them some kind of grand improvements. Don't be duped. They lied again.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...thrice...

 

[DonVerita]

JetBlue pilots-

Please try to ignore the pro-management kool-aid drinkers amongst your ranks. They fall into 2 sub-categories:

A - I've got mine screw everyone else, don't rock the boat 'cause I'm senior and will be retireing soon.
B- - The apathetic, excuse-ridden, scared little mice afraid of their own shadow and of standing up for themselves.

AirTran pilots would not be in the elevated position they are today were it not for ALPA. It wasn't too long ago that we had a weak, disfunctional, ineffective in-house union called the NPA (National Pilots Association). It was a total disaster. It may have been OK back when we were a 500 pilot National sized airline (hence the name), but once we made the jump to Major airline status, just like you did, that required a whole new matrix, a new sense of getting our fair share of the airline that WE helped to build (just like you did with yours), and a new way of achieving our goals - the top of which was Scope & Merger protection. ALPA was there for us every step of the way. They provided far more in funds to us than they took in from dues. Without them, we would not be where we are today. Even now, during the SWA merger and SLI negotiations, they are still firmly with us and will remain so until the day that we move over to SWAPA.

Generally, in-house unions do not work. Why? Because they don't have the deep pockets, teams of lawyers, and vast resources to call upon like ALPA does. SWAPA works for SWA pilots because SWA has a very labor-friendly management team who puts employees first before customers or anyone else. In fact, SWA employees are referred to as "Internal Customers". Everyone else comes in 2nd and are referred to as, "External Customers". Contrast that to the way AirTran Management treats its employees - as a hinderance to management bonuses...and that's putting it mildly.

This is your party. ALPA will help you to the extent that you ask for, but you are still in charge, you make the final decisions. This is why it is important to do it right; get the facts, don't let some in your group make comparisons to Republic, Spirit, or any other airline that is not a Major.

Your unionization helps all unionized carriers, so by virtue of that alone, you can count on the support of all of ALPA and of all ALPA pilots. Should you achieve this, just remember that ALPA National is an umbrella that provides you protections and resources, but...You are only as strong as your MEC. So elect strong, far-sighted reps to your LEC who always put the pilots first in anything they do. Those LEC reps will then elect your MEC officers who should be of like-mind.

 

[Lake Alice]

BB,

Please explain to me what is contained in the documents that would actually help or protect us? Please explain to me how you can compare our 190 rates to Republics? We are supposed to be a major airline, right? If we are close to 190 pay rates with Republic and we are a major and they are not then how come their insurance is better than ours and our retirements are the same. Talk about picking and choosing.
Handing our future MEC a 78 seat starting point, alter-ego airline, 10% regional flying, inability to file a grievance, 40% insurance rates, no merger protection...that's right, M/B does not apply to us despite what your buddy Craine says. There is little, if anything, contained in those documents that are beneficial to Jetblue pilots.

Lastly, and let this sink in to your think skull, none of those documents are arguable in a court of law. They are policies and procedures and we cannot fight them. They mean nothing in a court of law!!!!!

 

[Fubijaakr]

No, they're not. They're examples of bankrupt carriers or cherry-picked examples posing as "average".

AirTran gets full pay for deadhead, full cancellation pay for any reason. Why would you expect any different?

What are you really afraid of? I would be much more afraid of being at a non-union carrier going forward than going with ALPA!

We get full pay/half-credit for our deadheads. Guys look for lines with lots of deadhead to increase their pay.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Your unionization helps all unionized carriers, so by virtue of that alone, you can count on the support of all of ALPA and of all ALPA pilots. Should you achieve this, just remember that ALPA National is an umbrella that provides you protections and resources, but...You are only as strong as your MEC. So elect strong, far-sighted reps to your LEC who always put the pilots first in anything they do. Those LEC reps will then elect your MEC officers who should be of like-mind.

Amen. This is the crux of the matter. ALPA haters point to the National office when pilots get poor contracts. In fact, all National can do is ADVISE individual MECs on the proper path to take.

In virtually all cases where a pilot group has experienced a bad outcome it was the LOCAL MEC who made a decision that was at odds with National advice.

B6 pilots and ALPA pilots in general need to commit your last three lines to memory. Elect a bunch of self-righteous, egotistical slugs and what do you get? USAPA.