JBLU Management Answers Back

[BLUE BAYOU]

Congratulations ALPA drive organizers. Your JB management has now suspended our 5 amendments to our PEA contracts. These improvements were within weeks of being achieved and would have been additional items on the negotiating table for our first contract if we went the ALPA route... Instead, ALPA filed at the worst possible time to the NMB.

This action has proved two things. One, that ALPA, before we are even members of the organization, has already screwed up for us. And two, that for those who think this JB management team will be amicable negotiators across the table from us, you're living in a dream world!!!

 

[Dan Roman]

I think that says more about your management than ALPA, a company with that kind of management style is capable of anything.
It proves you need a union or prepare for all kinds of surprises down the road.

 

[Dan Roman]

BTW, isn't it illegal to make any changes to a work agreement during a union drive? Anyone?

 

[PSL]

Dan:

I believe you are correct, if and only if, the represented pilot group is in Section 6 negotiations. Again, I am not an attorney, but I believe the Status Quo must be maintained during Section 6. Any substantive change to the Status Quo by either side has not been looked upon by a Judge kindly.

Since Jet Blue's pilots are not represented in the traditional sense via a CBA, management is free to do anything they want whenever they want. It is, quite simply, an employment at will situation.

History is filled with examples of 'you reap what you sow' when it comes to describing the dealings between management and labor.

If there are any lawyers amongst us, please chime in with your thoughts.

 

[Dizel8]

BB,

You are saying you believed that drivel?

Almost to a comma, the very same things were said during the JBPA drive:"Oh gosh, improvements were just around the corner, great things was going to happen, but not that the JBPA filed, well our hands our tied!"

Yep, still waiting for all those great things to happen.

 

[B6Busdriver]

Congratulations ALPA drive organizers. Your JB management has now suspended our 5 amendments to our PEA contracts. These improvements were within weeks of being achieved and would have been additional items on the negotiating table for our first contract if we went the ALPA route... Instead, ALPA filed at the worst possible time to the NMB.

This action has proved two things. One, that ALPA, before we are even members of the organization, has already screwed up for us. And two, that for those who think this JB management team will be amicable negotiators across the table from us, you're living in a dream world!!!

No this proves our management can and will do anything they want when they want to. What is the worst thing that could have happened? The company could have fixed the documents and given them to us. If the election failed then ALPA could try and protest the results. Instead our beloved benevolent dictators take the chicken doo doo way of doing things. Again jetBlue management has show their true colors and have proven to be the best advertisement for ALPA. Way to go Dave!

 

[Splert]

Congratulations ALPA drive organizers. Your JB management has now suspended our 5 amendments to our PEA contracts. These improvements were within weeks of being achieved and would have been additional items on the negotiating table for our first contract if we went the ALPA route... Instead, ALPA filed at the worst possible time to the NMB.

This action has proved two things. One, that ALPA, before we are even members of the organization, has already screwed up for us. And two, that for those who think this JB management team will be amicable negotiators across the table from us, you're living in a dream world!!!

Blue...

Read the documents again.

If they were in effect and if the Pilots later voted for ANY representative group the documents would have been void.

Do you need page and paragraph references?

The PVC structure would be the only structure that once voted out any perceived protection from these documents become void. Compare AirTran when they left and inhouse to ALPA their CBA become status quo not void as these contracts do. That is the difference between RLA Contracts and Contract Law.

This structure is poison to your careers and JetBlue management is showing it true colors.

 

[B6Busdriver]

I think that says more about your management than ALPA, a company with that kind of management style is capable of anything.
It proves you need a union or prepare for all kinds of surprises down the road.

Exactly. The document process has been going on for quite sometime. What should ALPA do, wait until the document process is over?

 

[Splert]

Blue,

Try to keep the basics straight when you attempting to mislead.

The 5 documents are not amendments to the PEA. Only one is, the remaining will be "referenced" in the PEA just like your Dental Insurance which can be changed or cancelled at anytime.

Continue...

 

[StarChecker]

Blue,

Try to keep the basics straight when you attempting to mislead.

His stupidity is outweighed only by his penchant for displaying it publicly. It is astounding that an adult human could read that email and not see it for what it is...simply astounding.

 

[scoreboardII]

BTW, isn't it illegal to make any changes to a work agreement during a union drive? Anyone?

you are right, so the company is freezing in place whatever is out there now. ALPA at it's finest, missed it by that much.

 

[B6Busdriver]

you are right, so the company is freezing in place whatever is out there now. ALPA at it's finest, missed it by that much.

I call BS. If these documents have been in so called negotiations for over a year then they can give them to us. What is the worst thing that happens? ALPA loses and then protests the election. Big deal.

 

[Splert]

you are right, so the company is freezing in place whatever is out there now. ALPA at it's finest, missed it by that much.

Tell us what did we missing by not having the documents in place?

Cultural Scope?

Cultural Merger Protection?

Cultural Alter Ego protection?

Cultural Dispute resolution?

 

[Blue Dude]

Congratulations ALPA drive organizers. Your JB management has now suspended our 5 amendments to our PEA contracts. These improvements were within weeks of being achieved and would have been additional items on the negotiating table for our first contract if we went the ALPA route... Instead, ALPA filed at the worst possible time to the NMB.

You seem to assume that the 5 documents would have had us negotiating from a position of strength. Instead, we would have spent a fair amount of negotiating capital just closing all the loopholes, much less achieving scope or M&A language worthy of the name. At least this way the company can't argue that we agreed to the weakest "protections" this side of Mesa and have established a precedent. I'd say the timing was pretty good.

There have been improvements "just around the corner" for years running now. We got barely average pay for a step forward after the last drive failed, and a number of steps backward to make up for it. We've been unable to move forward in several critical areas because the law won't allow us to... without a CBA. There are no legal "workarounds". The 5 documents were intended to buy the company time, but when the details came out, most pilots saw through the sham, there was a new rush of interest cards and the vote is here. I'd say the "give us just one more chance" tactic is dead.

Your distaste for unions is blinding you to the reality of the situation. There simply is no other way forward. I don't expect you to like it. I'm not sure I like it. But that's where we are. Blame an industry whose other potential merger partners are all unionized and well prepared to take advantage of our lack of a plan. Blame Federal tax law that won't allow our retirement funding from passing muster without massive company payouts ... or a CBA. Blame the company for taking joinder off the table while promoting a new era of the direct relationship, meaning we need to fight (and pay) individually each violation that may affect us all. But blame ALPA?

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

I've accepted the fact that ALPA will probably win the election this time around. I'll be relieved. Because if they were defeated, the same group would either protest the results or then try TWU or some other trucking union. I'll be grateful to pay out the $5000/year dues for the 2-3 years it's going to take to get our first contract-- while maintaining status quo on pay and benefits. That's a pretty expensive ALPA decal...

The battle cry is "We want industry standard!" Please check out the pay rates of other E190 operators. Our JBLU E190 FOs make more money than Republic's E190 Captains. http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc.html
Jetblue leads the industry in pay for the E190s.

The ALPA supporters pick and choose the great parts of every contract out there as their promise for greener pastures. Really? Our first contract will most likely be concessionary no matter what these ALPA supporters will tell you, that is just a fact of first contracts. What if we do end up with industry standard-- like no more pay protection for lost legs or trips due to IROP (APA-American). Or how about 50% pay for deadheads (ALPA-UAL). Be careful what you ask for, because these are examples of industry standards.

I love Democrats!!!

 

[StarChecker]

Your distaste for unions is blinding you to the reality of the situation. There simply is no other way forward. I don't expect you to like it. I'm not sure I like it. But that's where we are. Blame an industry whose other potential merger partners are all unionized and well prepared to take advantage of our lack of a plan. Blame Federal tax law that won't allow our retirement funding from passing muster without massive company payouts ... or a CBA. Blame the company for taking joinder off the table while promoting a new era of the direct relationship, meaning we need to fight (and pay) individually each violation that may affect us all. But blame ALPA?

A perfectly crafted reply.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

You seem to assume that the 5 documents would have had us negotiating from a position of strength. Instead, we would have spent a fair amount of negotiating capital just closing all the loopholes, much less achieving scope or M&A language worthy of the name. At least this way the company can't argue that we agreed to the weakest "protections" this side of Mesa and have established a precedent. I'd say the timing was pretty good.

There have been improvements "just around the corner" for years running now. We got barely average pay for a step forward after the last drive failed, and a number of steps backward to make up for it. We've been unable to move forward in several critical areas because the law won't allow us to... without a CBA. There are no legal "workarounds". The 5 documents were intended to buy the company time, but when the details came out, most pilots saw through the sham, there was a new rush of interest cards and the vote is here. I'd say the "give us just one more chance" tactic is dead.

Your distaste for unions is blinding you to the reality of the situation. There simply is no other way forward. I don't expect you to like it. I'm not sure I like it. But that's where we are. Blame an industry whose other potential merger partners are all unionized and well prepared to take advantage of our lack of a plan. Blame Federal tax law that won't allow our retirement funding from passing muster without massive company payouts ... or a CBA. Blame the company for taking joinder off the table while promoting a new era of the direct relationship, meaning we need to fight (and pay) individually each violation that may affect us all. But blame ALPA?

Really? These documents were within weeks of a pilot vote. ALPA couldn't wait a few weeks after over a year of hard work by both sides? Give me a break-- try to spin it any way you want... But it was the poorest of timing!!!

 

[Splert]

I've accepted the fact that ALPA will probably win the election this time around. I'll be relieved. Because if they were defeated, the same group would either protest the results or then try TWU or some other trucking union. I'll be grateful to pay out the $5000/year dues for the 2-3 years it's going to take to get our first contract-- while maintaining status quo on pay and benefits. That's a pretty expensive ALPA decal...

The battle cry is "We want industry standard!" Please check out the pay rates of other E190 operators. Our JBLU E190 FOs make more money than Republic's E190 Captains. http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc.html
Jetblue leads the industry in pay for the E190s.

The ALPA supporters pick and choose the great parts of every contract out there as their promise for greener pastures. Really? Our first contract will most likely be concessionary no matter what these ALPA supporters will tell you, that is just a fact of first contracts. What if we do end up with industry standard-- like no more pay protection for lost legs or trips due to IROP (APA-American). Or how about 50% pay for deadheads (ALPA-UAL). Be careful what you ask for, because these are examples of industry standards.

I love Democrats!!!

The E190 is paid at peer average.

If you want to compare E190 to E190 then you have to accept A320 to A320 and the fact that then both the E190 and A320 are over paid using your metric.

The metric used by the PCRB was the industry metric of aircraft grouping or category. The E190 is a Group 4 Aircraft and the A320 is group 3 aircraft and so is SWA 737s and Alaska 737 and DAL 737s. If you want to play the highest paid 190 game then so are the A320 rates.

Do you really want average A320 rates?

50% DH is not industry standard instead it is a data point within the industry.

 

[Splert]

Really? These documents were within weeks of a pilot vote. ALPA couldn't wait a few weeks after over a year of hard work by both sides? Give me a break-- try to spin it any way you want... But it was the poorest of timing!!!

Email the PVC and ask how many times the ELT has cancelled meetings with the PVC in the past 3 months.

Ask the PVC how many meetings have been scheduled over the past 3 months with ELT to work on the documents.

In the past month the PVC has only met 5 days.

Sounds like the company scheduled/pay protected/appointed committee had the breaks applied for strategic purposes.

 

[Raoul Duke]

Anyone that thinks ALPA is the answer for JB is beyond crazy -- ALPA has literally screwed up every carrier they have represented. Why would JB want to be told what to do by DL and UA -- those carriers control ALPA and are not afraid to throw any other carriers under the bus at the drop of a hat.