Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

First SLI thread of the day

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Register   Log in
higney85 said:
3. Status/Category was done at the regional level purely by pay. At the majors you use widebody/narrowbody due to pay.
Click to expand...

So, a Q and SF cap at CJC pays less than all FO positions at PCL? News to me.

So maybe, as many theorize, the carve out on Q pay was to help make it easier to screw CJC Q pilots at SLI time...

higney85 said:
. I sincerely apologize if some guys have their head in the sand about this "purchase". We did not buy you. Corp owns all 3 of us. It's as if Pinnacle, Inc. was the family dog; Colgan showed up as a stray and didn't play with us in the yard; and now XJ got picked up at the pound. We are all in the same yard and each one wants to be the "Alpa dog". In the end we are all in the same situation with the same amount of influence.
Click to expand...

Colgan played with PCL MEC quite well. They share an office in MEM if i'm not mistaken.
 
As an aside, all this arguing is not really my style. I generally like people and actually look forward to sharing brews and crews with all of you guys once this drudgery is through.
 
suupah said:
As an aside, all this arguing is not really my style. I generally like people and actually look forward to sharing brews and crews with all of you guys once this drudgery is through.
Click to expand...
THATS IT!!!!!!! The new slogan, "Brews with Crews."
 
higney85 said:
1. The 9E guys did negotiate. They are the only group that actually changed their proposals through the entire process. There is no point to NOT negotiating in front of an arbitrator.
2. The list had no "additions" or "changes". The column that had the checkride date was simply removed in accordance with the JCBA leaving class date as DOH in seniority order. There was no re-shuffling or changes. The list was the same as the one used in negotiations from 7/1/10 with the exception of all NH's and XJ furloughs added below in DOH (only class date) order per the process/protocol agreement.
3. Status/Category was done at the regional level purely by pay. At the majors you use widebody/narrowbody due to pay.
4. There has been no comms between groups, between bloch, nobody. We have all been waiting on Bloch since tuesday after everyone responded to the list/disputes.
5. I sincerely apologize if some guys have their head in the sand about this "purchase". We did not buy you. Corp owns all 3 of us. It's as if Pinnacle, Inc. was the family dog; Colgan showed up as a stray and didn't play with us in the yard; and now XJ got picked up at the pound. We are all in the same yard and each one wants to be the "Alpa dog". In the end we are all in the same situation with the same amount of influence.
Click to expand...
Not all this info matches what I have been told. What I am hearing is that even the last list has DOH changes on it, that were not identified on either of the first 2. I'm sure there was no reshuffling (it would be obvious) nor am I charging that the changes were intentional. But I am disappointed that your SLI committee cannot get their list straightened out. That was their responsibility, not the companies, and XJ/9L integration methods depended on accurate information. The fact that the list was wrong, has been wrong, and maybe still is wrong, basically negated the entire negotiation process. 9L was forced to change their list too, to follow ALPA guidelines for DOH, and obviously had enough time to accomplish this prior to submitting the certified lists. The fact that yours was incorrect shows volumes of the character and integrity of you SLI committee to represent your pilots fairly. If a mistake 2 months into negotiations was found, understandable, it should have been brought to light immediately not on the last day.

Status/Category
Status/Category works at the majors this way, because they have similar fleets (DC9 vs MD80). We do not. Maybe it should be base on seats or weight. Then the Q ranks higher than the 200. Your definition by pay doesn't work as Suupah stated, the Q and SF CAs make more than ANY FO. Maybe you could have group the Q and 200 CAs in the same group....as equals. Still not fair to the '99/'00 9L guys. They could hold 900 CA at either 9E or XJ, but would not have any slots to merge into that group.
 
I guess it doesn't matter anymore. It's in Blochs' hands. Hopefully he can see through the actions of a few for the greater good of the combined pilot group. And I sincerely hope, whatever the ruling, that there is not a continuation of the situation into a USAir/AmWest debacle.

I do agree with Hawk in one area though, if I am at all in a position to make it to the meeting to nominate and vote, it will not be for a past or current 9E rep. ***Notice I didn't rule a 9E or 9L guy/gal out*** You guys have made your disorganization, lack of responsibility, and leadership inaptitude very apparent. I always heard this prior to the merger, but gave it no thought. Now I see it, and I do not want that type of union representation speaking for me in the future. Nothing personal to ANY individual, but as a collective group, I give a vote of no confidence.
 
higney85 said:
It's as if Pinnacle, Inc. was the family dog; Colgan showed up as a stray and didn't play with us in the yard; and now XJ got picked up at the pound. We are all in the same yard and each one wants to be the "Alpa dog". In the end we are all in the same situation with the same amount of influence.
Click to expand...
Horrible analogy BTW. You make it seem like the 9E group is the pedigreed, AKC registered dog, and belittle the others with "stray" and implied mutt. The SLI was our opportunity to negotiate a fair and equitable ISL, not force someone else to arbitrate it for us. Your so called "dog" was trying to piss off the owner so that we all get swatted with the newspaper. We are all together in this, when this list is done, we will all be one. There is no "Alpha Dog", not unless you are discussing the strengths of our merged union against the other airlines in the US regional "yard."
 
CptMurf said:
Horrible analogy BTW. You make it seem like the 9E group is the pedigreed, AKC registered dog, and belittle the others with "stray" and implied mutt. The SLI was our opportunity to negotiate a fair and equitable ISL, not force someone else to arbitrate it for us. Your so called "dog" was trying to piss off the owner so that we all get swatted with the newspaper. We are all together in this, when this list is done, we will all be one. There is no "Alpha Dog", not unless you are discussing the strengths of our merged union against the other airlines in the US regional "yard."
Click to expand...

It's sad, but the actions and verbal comments of many at 9E show they really feel that way
 
Maybe the analogy was off. If you took it as one being a pedigree, it would be my fault for not explaining. My wife and I have dogs and they are loved the same regardless of their past and situation around getting them.

I never said I agree with the stat/cat setup. This whole situation is a mess, that was a known quantity at the beginning. The hope is Bloch can take everyone and put us together in a fashion where we are all equally ticked off. From there I think we can all move on. The jet/tprop debate has been one around for decades. I fully expect the Q to pay more than the -200 on the next contract. CJC makes this stat/cat interesting because of the tremendous longevity difference. If it was simply XJ/9E I'm sure the methods proposed would have been different.
 
CptMurf said:
Horrible analogy BTW. You make it seem like the 9E group is the pedigreed, AKC registered dog, and belittle the others with "stray" and implied mutt. The SLI was our opportunity to negotiate a fair and equitable ISL, not force someone else to arbitrate it for us. Your so called "dog" was trying to piss off the owner so that we all get swatted with the newspaper. We are all together in this, when this list is done, we will all be one. There is no "Alpha Dog", not unless you are discussing the strengths of our merged union against the other airlines in the US regional "yard."
Click to expand...
Sounds to me that someone is a little sensitive. Your rebuttal reeks of projection.

You project your own sense of inferiority when you look at the analogy and assume home = purebred and pound puppy = mutt. He did not say nor imply anything of the sort... and the only insults in Higney's thread are the ones your head.

Now if you have problem being a pound puppy, too bad. You are the new dog to this yard. And yeah, I sympathize... but that's the way the industry works.

Next time, it'll be my turn.
 
Flyprdu said:
Sounds to me that someone is a little sensitive. Your rebuttal reeks of projection.

You project your own sense of inferiority when you look at the analogy and assume home = purebred and pound puppy = mutt. He did not say nor imply anything of the sort... and the only insults in Higney's thread are the ones your head.

Now if you have problem being a pound puppy, too bad. You are the new dog to this yard. And yeah, I sympathize... but that's the way the industry works.

Next time, it'll be my turn.
Click to expand...
Not too many pure breads in the pound, and you seemed to have forgotten the stray. Seems your the one with projection problems, since were talking about achieving an ISL and not our next family pet.
 
Flyprdu said:
Sounds to me that someone is a little sensitive. Your rebuttal reeks of projection.

You project your own sense of inferiority when you look at the analogy and assume home = purebred and pound puppy = mutt. He did not say nor imply anything of the sort... and the only insults in Higney's thread are the ones your head.

Now if you have problem being a pound puppy, too bad. You are the new dog to this yard. And yeah, I sympathize... but that's the way the industry works.

Next time, it'll be my turn.
Click to expand...

Sensitive maybe, but how many shots across the bow does it take for you to realize somebody is shoting at you
 
Flyprdu said:
Sounds to me that someone is a little sensitive. Your rebuttal reeks of projection.

You project your own sense of inferiority when you look at the analogy and assume home = purebred and pound puppy = mutt. He did not say nor imply anything of the sort... and the only insults in Higney's thread are the ones your head.

Now if you have problem being a pound puppy, too bad. You are the new dog to this yard. And yeah, I sympathize... but that's the way the industry works.

Next time, it'll be my turn.
Click to expand...
You're in over your head. Time to stop now. I'll throw in the towel for you. Your welcome. And FYI, we are taking over the yard.....just in case you weren't sure.
 
higney85 said:
1. The 9E guys did negotiate. They are the only group that actually changed their proposals through the entire process. There is no point to NOT negotiating in front of an arbitrator.
2. The list had no "additions" or "changes". The column that had the checkride date was simply removed in accordance with the JCBA leaving class date as DOH in seniority order. There was no re-shuffling or changes. The list was the same as the one used in negotiations from 7/1/10 with the exception of all NH's and XJ furloughs added below in DOH (only class date) order per the process/protocol agreement.
3. Status/Category was done at the regional level purely by pay. At the majors you use widebody/narrowbody due to pay.
4. There has been no comms between groups, between bloch, nobody. We have all been waiting on Bloch since tuesday after everyone responded to the list/disputes.
5. I sincerely apologize if some guys have their head in the sand about this "purchase". We did not buy you. Corp owns all 3 of us. It's as if Pinnacle, Inc. was the family dog; Colgan showed up as a stray and didn't play with us in the yard; and now XJ got picked up at the pound. We are all in the same yard and each one wants to be the "Alpa dog". In the end we are all in the same situation with the same amount of influence.
Click to expand...

Higney, I appreciate your willingness to serve. You stepped up to the plate. I don't know the finer details of the Pinnacle MEC, but from what I have seen personally now (and not rumor) The place was and is a train wreck. The list is long with mis-steps and I am not shy to rise up against the leadership of them. I am sure they have the same goals as myself in this industry, but their methods and discipline of reaching those goals is horrific.

With that said I absolutely seperate the Pinnacle MEC and LEC reps from the rest of the Pinnacle pilot group. I look forward to working with each and every one of them. Even the ****************************** bags, cuz we got a few too. I feel that your pilot group has been beaten down for so long that all the group knows is disapointment and dispare. It is not their fault for feeling this way. You beat somebody down for so long and that is all they know. I am looking forward to change. We all are being served on a platter of change from the CEO all the way down to the line pilots, bases, and equipment.

Now for the SLI, points you made. As to addition and changes. Yes, their were. Ask J.H. if terminated pilots were added to the last list submitted. Ask him if some pilots were not even on the last list submitted (lets just call that the PM list) Yes their was at least one pilot that was left off the list due to a lack of oversight from Pinnacle SLI committee. And he was found by our SLI committee. I got his name if you want it?

Ask JH if their were email exchanges on the 25th and what he wanted. There is more to the story of checkride data point, DOH data point, and senority date data point.

Please engage JH or even better yet cross check his answers given to you based on verifable data from a seperate source.

My last point of this aurgument is this. JH blamed the company for bad data. Do you know who actually owns a senority list? It is ALPA and not the company. We are the ones responsible for making sure it is correct and if the company cannot come up with a proper list it is ALPA that corrects it. I suppose it is a joint responsability, but ALPA owns the document. So JH's excuse for the company giving bad data doesn't fly with me, it is ultimately his responsability.
 
Simon Says said:
Higney, I appreciate your willingness to serve. You stepped up to the plate. I don't know the finer details of the Pinnacle MEC, but from what I have seen personally now (and not rumor) The place was and is a train wreck. The list is long with mis-steps and I am not shy to rise up against the leadership of them. I am sure they have the same goals as myself in this industry, but their methods and discipline of reaching those goals is horrific.

With that said I absolutely seperate the Pinnacle MEC and LEC reps from the rest of the Pinnacle pilot group. I look forward to working with each and every one of them. Even the ****************************** bags, cuz we got a few too. I feel that your pilot group has been beaten down for so long that all the group knows is disapointment and dispare. It is not their fault for feeling this way. You beat somebody down for so long and that is all they know. I am looking forward to change. We all are being served on a platter of change from the CEO all the way down to the line pilots, bases, and equipment.

Now for the SLI, points you made. As to addition and changes. Yes, their were. Ask J.H. if terminated pilots were added to the last list submitted. Ask him if some pilots were not even on the last list submitted (lets just call that the PM list) Yes their was at least one pilot that was left off the list due to a lack of oversight from Pinnacle SLI committee. And he was found by our SLI committee. I got his name if you want it?

Ask JH if their were email exchanges on the 25th and what he wanted. There is more to the story of checkride data point, DOH data point, and senority date data point.

Please engage JH or even better yet cross check his answers given to you based on verifable data from a seperate source.

My last point of this aurgument is this. JH blamed the company for bad data. Do you know who actually owns a senority list? It is ALPA and not the company. We are the ones responsible for making sure it is correct and if the company cannot come up with a proper list it is ALPA that corrects it. I suppose it is a joint responsability, but ALPA owns the document. So JH's excuse for the company giving bad data doesn't fly with me, it is ultimately his responsability.
Click to expand...

Sigh......:erm:
 

Share this page

Latest posts

Latest resources

Latest media

Carbon Cub FX-3 Shenandoah Valley
Carbon Cub at Kittyhawk
FX-3 in the backcountry
IFR Panel in a Carbon Cub FX-3
Cub-Provo-UT-c.jpg
Back
Top