SWA/Airtran Process Agreement??

[PapaWoody]

Even if it goes relative how does any SWA pilot lose seniority? They don't lose money, they don't lose bidding power, vacation slots, bases, or anything else. You say its not a pilot's seat but the company's who he flies for. Now we all fly for the same company just have different bargaining agents. No SWA guy will lose anything. Even if it goes relative they have not lost any seniority. 99.9% of AAI guys meet and exceed SWA's mins . GK and the shareholders decided they wanted this deal and they made it happen. You can say AAI guys are lesser pilots and lesser people all day long but that doesn't make it so. You have earned your job and we have earned ours. Get over yourself. You are no better than the other thousands of pilots out there.

27, you generally have reasonable posts, and I don't doubt that this one was intended to be the same, so my rebuttal is not intended to be combative. However, to say that no SWA guy will lose anything if this were to go relative is incorrect. Seniority determines a lot of things, including vacation, bidding for premium time, etc. So if this were to go relative, every SWA guy would lose money because of the inherent slowing of their movement up the seniority list that would occur due to growth and retirements (the majority of the retirements being on the SWA side for the next 20 years). Not sure the amount of money to be lost, but considering I upgraded before age 60 changed and the stagnation caused by that is costing me approx. $30k a year, the losses would be substantial, especially for the junior guys. Given this, it would hardly be fair for a pilot who has been at AirTran for less time than we've been at SWA to not only get an average $1.5 million bump in his career earnings and get seniority that their longevity does not support, while the SWA guys and gals would lose money over the course of their career. Fair and equitable cuts both ways.

Respectfully,
PapaWoody

 

[SWA/FO]

but since you are an FO

I'll be a Captain by the time the ATL boyz are attached to the list. I don't need tranny to upgrade.

 

[27 driver]

27, you generally have reasonable posts, and I don't doubt that this one was intended to be the same, so my rebuttal is not intended to be combative. However, to say that no SWA guy will lose anything if this were to go relative is incorrect. Seniority determines a lot of things, including vacation, bidding for premium time, etc. So if this were to go relative, every SWA guy would lose money because of the inherent slowing of their movement up the seniority list that would occur due to growth and retirements (the majority of the retirements being on the SWA side for the next 20 years). Not sure the amount of money to be lost, but considering I upgraded before age 60 changed and the stagnation caused by that is costing me approx. $30k a year, the losses would be substantial, especially for the junior guys. Given this, it would hardly be fair for a pilot who has been at AirTran for less time than we've been at SWA to not only get an average $1.5 million bump in his career earnings and get seniority that their longevity does not support, while the SWA guys and gals would lose money over the course of their career. Fair and equitable cuts both ways.

Respectfully,
PapaWoody

PapaWoody,
My post was basically alcohol driven but the message remains the same. I just get sick of people saying we are lesser people because we don't work for SWA. You guys have a great deal there and there is no arguing that fact. I guess my point is that we aren't lesser people or pilots. I just didn't express it properly. I have no idea how this is going to work out and hope all will be happy in the end. I am just a passenger on this bus. I wish nothing but the best for all of us. I am sorry if I offended anyone. It wasn't my intention. Good luck to us all and God speed.

Oh ya...Lets gitr done and kick some ass.

 

[Kharma Police]

I'll be a Captain by the time the ATL boyz are attached to the list. I don't need tranny to upgrade.

I hope so! You've been saying that since September, what are you waiting for?

 

[General Lee]

Even if it goes relative how does any SWA pilot lose seniority? They don't lose money, they don't lose bidding power, vacation slots, bases, or anything else. You say its not a pilot's seat but the company's who he flies for. Now we all fly for the same company just have different bargaining agents. No SWA guy will lose anything. Even if it goes relative they have not lost any seniority. 99.9% of AAI guys meet and exceed SWA's mins . GK and the shareholders decided they wanted this deal and they made it happen. You can say AAI guys are lesser pilots and lesser people all day long but that doesn't make it so. You have earned your job and we have earned ours. Get over yourself. You are no better than the other thousands of pilots out there.

That is correct, but they do want your Captain slots. They know stagnation may set in because they only have 150 scheduled retirements per year for the next 10 or more years, and that is too slow. In recent past they were upgrading fast, until their senior guys wanted to stay until age 80. (they only got age 65) Watch what you do, and read the fine print.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[ASADFW7]

27 the hard part for many is the multiple interviews and years to get on with SWA. It is unique within the industry. It isn't for everyone but it is enviable.

 

[General Lee]

They lose money by delays in upgrade, week ends off etc. As you say, they didn't choose Swa but how did they earn it. So I guess a new hire hired after will go in front of everyone if they were a capt previously, they earned it right?

Earned it? They didn't decide to merge, GK did. It may turn out well financially for them, but they didn't do the signing on the bottomline. And how would a newhire go ahead of any Captain? Come on now.

And just because Southwest is doing well today, doesn't mean it couldn't falter in the future. Maybe Airtran could have been the next powerhouse. You don't really know. And do you have to EARN SOUTHWEST? That sounds a bit cocky. Get over it. This is a merger, and most Airtran Captains will probably be merged in with other Southwest Captains (maybe not at the top of the list, but within the Captain ranks somewhere), and there will be Southwest and Airtran FOs both at the bottom. Arbitration will make it fair. Also, anyone hired after the merger announcement will be stapled on the bottom---as per every other arbitration result.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

27 the hard part for many is the multiple interviews and years to get on with SWA. It is unique within the industry. It isn't for everyone but it is enviable.

Arbitrators will laugh if you say that in testimony. Are you saying sons or daughters have NEVER been hired over MORE qualified C-5A drivers with 737 types also? Come on, get over it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[ASADFW7]

Deleted

 

[Empennage]

GL. What merger?

 

[Ty Webb]

it is a little irksome to hear Ty talk about all the money he is going to be making as a SWA CP, when SWA junior CPs and LCs may lose their seats...

I've never said squat about making more money, except a joke about affording a show. If that irked you, you've got issues, pal.

What I HAVE said is that I don't need the extra $50k and my seniority isn't for sale.

I get tired of reading "Ty said" stuff that I've never said. If I'm going to be the scapegoat at least find stuff I've actually said....You may be surprised.

 

[Empennage]

OYS/GL/-9CPT/Et.al.,

Both sides have a lot to gamble on here...SWA pilots have no contractual gains as a result of this acquisition and will probably have AAI pilots on the list ahead of them...AAI pilots gain a better contract/company/career potential/LIFE...for that they must give up seniority, the only question is how much...so what is so unfair about that?...or is it fair for the AAI pilots to keep same rel seniority, be operated separately as Guadalupe Holdings with the pay and benefits gain of the SWA contract...the latter may be the best outcome...

Fairly well said.

How Many pilots has southwest airlines furloughed in it's 40 year history?

Anyone? Anyone?

 

[ASADFW7]

Ty you are easy target because people know your name. It is not cool that it got so personal. At the same time you had a good ride for a while. Just think if gen lee got outed he would be trashed.

 

[SWA/FO]

I hope so! You've been saying that since September, what are you waiting for?

the call....

 

[Uppercrust]

Me: Blow me.

Ok! I'm up for it.

 

[redflyer65]

I think we may have wondered down a dangerous road here...

 

[Uppercrust]

What I HAVE said is that I don't need the extra $50k and my seniority isn't for sale.

No offense here Big Boy ( I heard you are quite large) but .......... Bob Fornaro just sold it!:laugh::laugh::laugh: To the lowest bidder!:laugh::laugh:

 

[waveflyer]

And remember Straight relative or DOH would place several hundred SWA at the bottom of the combined snapshot list....(?) that doesn't quite affect me- but I couldn't vote for that. CJ shouldn't be senior to AT Capts, but we bought AT- their guys shouldn't end up with a several hundred pilot cushion after the deal, when our guys just have the new hires since- that would be crazy to me to be bought and end up with huge raises, 8 more bases, better schedules, no strike looming, better mgmt, better culture AND an increased seniority cushion...??

That's way too much-

 

[canyonblue]

What I HAVE said is that I don't need the extra $50k and my seniority isn't for sale.

Sometimes you have to pay the cover to get in the Joint.

 

[-9Capt]

27, So if this were to go relative, every SWA guy would lose money because of the inherent slowing of their movement up the seniority list

Actually, just the opposite is true.

Your movement up the seniority list should be much faster once the "synergies" are realized. Don't think so? Ask your boss. GK never turns down an opportunity to talk about the growth this merger brings. SWA gets AirTran deliveries, cities and slots which brings growth you wouldn't have seen otherwise.

WSJ article 5/10/11:

Gary Kelly, Southwest’s chief executive, said the AirTran acquisition was a thrifty way to expand.

“It wasn’t do we grow Southwest, or do we buy AirTran? It was, we need AirTran, so we can grow in the future,” Mr. Kelly said.

 

[waveflyer]

Opposite?? No. Still good yes, and I do believe that there is tons of growth potential- but those higher on the list will reap the rewards of growth sooner and that's no argument to place one above the buyer.

 

[canyonblue]

“It wasn’t do we grow Southwest, or do we buy AirTran? It was, we need AirTran, so we can grow in the future,” Mr. Kelly said.

You are reading it all wrong though. It's more like the United States needed the Native Americans so they could grow in the future. They needed them out of the way. We just got Manhattan for $24.

 

[RLAblows]

You are reading it all wrong though. It's more like the United States needed the Native Americans so they could grow in the future. They needed them out of the way. We just got Manhattan for $24.

That's a pretty bold statement and you guys were calling us the "land grabbers." Wow! Contradictions are flying everywhere.

 

[-9Capt]

It's more like the United States needed the Native Americans so they could grow in the future.

But now there's a law that says you can slaughter the Indians.

Actually, I agree with you 100%.
SWA's growth was very much limited by AT. SWA couldn't drive us out of any markets given our similar CASM. Clearly, from a business standpoint, SWA needed AT more than AT needed SWA. Now you got us and Bond/McCaskill will make sure things are "fair and equitable" going forward.

 

[-9Capt]

that's no argument to place one above the buyer.

That, my friend, will most likely be left for arbitrators to decide.

 

[On Your Six]

GL Said: "Let someone looking in from the outside with no stake in the outcome decide."

Well he has no stake in this and does not have to live with the outcome...

Ty: no seat is protected in the current SWA CBA.....? U can still afford 2 buy on SWA FO pay...

So you're saying no advice is good advice? Just trust SWAPA? If Lee was doing the arbitrating, he'd probably put Ty Webb as number 1 on the list. Yeah, that probably wouldn't be a great idea. I think that is what he meant, and I think you knew that. Stop being shifty. And didn't Lee go through that already with his own arbitration? Be a man and roll the dice.


OYS

 

[FlyinGuy]

Clearly, from a business standpoint, SWA needed AT more than AT needed SWA.

I guess it is Friday night so the booze is flowing!!!!

 

[On Your Six]

Actually, just the opposite is true.

Your movement up the seniority list should be much faster once the "synergies" are realized. Don't think so? Ask your boss. GK never turns down an opportunity to talk about the growth this merger brings. SWA gets AirTran deliveries, cities and slots which brings growth you wouldn't have seen otherwise.

WSJ article 5/10/11:

Gary Kelly, Southwest’s chief executive, said the AirTran acquisition was a thrifty way to expand.

“It wasn’t do we grow Southwest, or do we buy AirTran? It was, we need AirTran, so we can grow in the future,” Mr. Kelly said.

The problem is they want to GROW into the left seats of your airplanes. This is why you need to take care of this.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

I guess it is Friday night so the booze is flowing!!!!

So GK was lying to the WSJ?


OYS

 

[-9Capt]

I guess it is Friday night so the booze is flowing!!!!

Your own boss said you couldn't grow without us. His words, not mine. Sounds to me like you needed us more than you know.

AirTran, on the other hand has had no problem adding cities in Mexico and the the islands. I'm pretty sure we've been upgrading lately too.

I'd love to stay and debate the obvious with you but I have to pack for my 27hr CUN layover followed by 20 hrs in SJU.