SWA-AAI Going Rogue

[Crash Pad]

Union says you can't discuss SLI! Moderator from AAI will shut down this thread in two minutes.

I'm going rogue!

Ok I've got a little something I'd like to toss out there if you don't like it just send it right back.

1. Date of hire with seat locks for captains
2. Date of hire with some sort of fence for 717
3. Straight DOH. (this has potential because your senior FO's will see upgrade quicker)
4. Fence off your 93' and over crowd. Then some sort of 7 to 2 or 3 to 1

We know the staple is out. Any of these work? By work I mean do you think your pilot group wouldn't come down the jetway see that I'm former AAI and take a dump in my seat while I'm doing a walk around.

You guys must have some realistic scenario that might work. What is it?

Note: I know people can't post real opinions on FI because your union will send you a nasty gram. I say sack up and lets have a real discussion. I'm sick of all these vague non-SLI... SLI threads discussing what each group brings to the table... Here is my no ******************** SLI thread. You can't post on this thread then shut the ******************** up! Man up!

 

[BoilerUP]

4. Fence off your 93' and over crowd. Then some sort of 7 to 2 or 3 to 1

Have absolutely no dog in the fight, but as an outside observer a ratio integration after the start of Valujet doesn't seem completely unreasonable as long as all current AAI captains are seat protected.

Perhaps I should get into the arbitration business, seems there is money to be made there these days...

 

[Beechdriver32]

I'm not engaging in this SLI discussion.

I just want to ask why are 'seat locks' always stipulated?

Your Capt seat is determined only by your place in line. That's it. You didn't 'earn' yout seat with anything but longevity. Your company shrinks, you may lose your seat.

By the same vein, if your company's gets bought (and the capt's seats along side it). Then your seat is determined simply by your new place in line.

I sure don't 'deserve' a left seat, why do think you're entitled to keep it if your new place is below the cut.

Somebody explain it to me.

And used little words, please?

Thanks- BD

 

[Bwipilot]

I'd garner that a "seat lock" would be unacceptable to 25% of the SWA pilots. Bump and flush preventions are well understood but not seat locks.

Example: a new CA seat opens at PHX while one is removed from ATL. Seat lock would allow the ATL captain to move to the PHX position even if the pilot didn't have the seniority. That wouldn't fly with the senior SWA FOs. It'd be a very big benefit for the junior AAI captains if ATL ever shrunk. Since most don't expect ATL to shrink, why even add Seat Lock to the SLI?

 

[flyboyike]

I sure don't 'deserve' a left seat, why do think you're entitled to keep it if your new place is below the cut.

Somebody explain it to me.

"It's not what you deserve, it's what you can negotiate..."

-Dr Stanley Karras

"Deserve's got nothin' to do with it..."

-Academy Award(R) Winner
Clint Eastwoon in "Unforgiven"

 

[Angus]

While I understand the crack cocaine like addiction to wanting to discuss SLI openly with fellow parties involved.... (I know I would), I simply have to digress.

I think alot of eyes would open up as the how "reasonable" the majority of the Pilot groups really are. I haven't spoken to a single AAI Pilot that has not been completely "reasonable" in their expectation, combined with the enthusiasm to put this potentially contentious procedure behind them. NOT ONE.

Believe it or not.... the biggest worry with most Pilots I have talked to is that stupidity on BOTH sides will destroy the combined Pilot group like the USAir - America West debacle. I simply do NOT see that happening.

The ONLY persons that I see implying that the AAI Pilots are wanting the sun the moon the stars.... are some of the morons around here. I certainly haven't heard that....

 

[Dash Power]

I think alot of eyes would open up as the how "reasonable" the majority of the Pilot groups really are. I haven't spoken to a single AAI Pilot that has not been completely "reasonable" in their expectation, combined with the enthusiasm to put this potentially contentious procedure behind them. NOT ONE.

Where on the contrary I have not spoken to one SWA pilot that wants this acquisition. They wish it would go away.

Interesting contrasting points of view which speaks volumes.

On another point, why would the thread below be moved to non-aviation? It clearly is a major airline thread.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=138314

 

[Angus]

SWA is spending ALOT of money for AAI. ALOT. They must want us BADLY. Nobody spends money in this financial climate... yet here we are.

Seems like we are in the same boat. You were selected to work as an employee at SWA by someone above you out of your hands.

AAI Pilots are being selected to work as an employee at SWA by someone above us out of our hands.

Did I mention that SWA is spending ALOT of money to have us come work for them..... so your opinion means NADA. Kinda like on flightinfo....

Bye Sexy.....

 

[Dash Power]

SWA is spending ALOT of money for AAI. ALOT. They must want us BADLY. Nobody spends money in this financial climate... yet here we are.

Seems like we are in the same boat. You were selected to work as an employee at SWA by someone above you out of your hands.

AAI Pilots are being selected to work as an employee at SWA by someone above us out of our hands.

Did I mention that SWA is spending ALOT of money to have us come work for them.....

How much is it costing SWA to purchase AT?

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

A seat lock only makes sense when a move to the right seat will be accompanied by a serious pay/QOL hit. This is not the case here. An 8year AAI captain becoming an 8yr SWA FO will experience a RAISE in pay/QOL. This is a first in any SLI.

Cant be certain, but I'm confident that any reasonable arbitrator will agree.

 

[Dash Power]

A seat lock only makes sense when a move to the right seat will be accompanied by a serious pay/QOL hit. This is not the case here. An 8year AAI captain becoming an 8yr SWA FO will experience a RAISE in pay/QOL. This is a first in any SLI.

Cant be certain, but I'm confident that any reasonable arbitrator will agree.

Even though precedence is largely the foundation for most the AT pilots on this board, precedence is not a factor in any previous integration of seniority lists. Precedence is used when laws or rules are enforced. The term really does not apply to this process because there are no rules or laws for an arbitrator to follow. M/B only requires a process with considerations.

Each integration has its own merits and considerations.

 

[Tripower455]

A seat lock only makes sense when a move to the right seat will be accompanied by a serious pay/QOL hit. This is not the case here. An 8year AAI captain becoming an 8yr SWA FO will experience a RAISE in pay/QOL. This is a first in any SLI.

Cant be certain, but I'm confident that any reasonable arbitrator will agree.

Don't you think it's reasonable for them to have their cake, and eat OURS too? How selfish of you to want to keep what you have earned and not give it away to those more deserving of it!

This is not a merger of equals. AT brings to the SWA pilot group ATLANTA(!), and even a few tropical intl destinations! What does SWAPA bring to the table for those guys?

The huge pay raises, far better QOL, far better management, numerous domiciles, LBB, Bob Torti etc. are trivial things that don't even come close to the value of ATLANTA(!)

If we want ATLANTA(!), we gotta give a lot here, don't we?

Judging by all the FI (post 9/27) threads on the subject, those AT guys are giving up a lot just by becoming SW pilots, so don't you think they deserve YOUR seniority and seat? It's OK to downgrade OUR guys (with the corresponding pay cut), but perish the thought of an AT guy moving right, while getting a pay raise at the same time......

 

[slaquer5]

Trip I think Anger disagrees with you.He wants the number 2 spot (maybe no. one) Right next to JR. relative seniority or burn the Empire down).

 

[zman]

How about this lets take about 500 guys on each side. Arm them with bats, chains, and anything else that would make a good time. Then we let them fight it out to the death, the last man standing that plants the flag in the middle of the field wins. That way there will be about 999 guys gone overall on the list. But the rules are you have to keep fighting till the last man, thats it! The winning team will be stapled on the top.

 

[TZtoSWA]

My perspective as a 7 year SWA F/O.

1. Seat protection or lock for Tranny CA's is unacceptable and would create a caustic work environment.

2. Forget fencing out the 717 also. SWAPA negotiated a maximum 24 month fence in our contract for a reason. We don't want lesser paid pilots running around our system on a fenced out airplane that happens to be the same size as a -500. Hello...can you say B-Scale anyone? In all likelihood, those airplanes will end up deployed on our short haul routes out of TX and West Coast so no way in hades we want it fenced out of our hands permanently.

3. Date of hire...not what I want but realistically a possibility provided the maximum 24 month duration fence applies around your operation. After 24 months, we get into ATL and your aircraft and seats and you get into our system. You get what your seniority holds Southwest and no more...

 

[Ty Webb]

My perspective as a 7 year SWA F/O.

1. Seat protection or lock for Tranny CA's is unacceptable and would create a caustic work environment.

What logic are you basing this on?

Any sort of "bump and flush" during a merger between two stable/growing airlines is very, very unlikely. It's even more unlikely with the current laws in place.

I think you're setting yourself up to be very angry and disappointed, and for what? What will you have personally lost? Has your pay changed? Has your bidding position changed? Has your upgrade been impacted?

 

[S3sundowner]

TZ doh? You must be joking. One day at the tranny = one day at SWA? No chance that will fly. I say staple every fo with pay protect. The rest integrate 8 to 1 from their #1 guy. All pay protected. I think these aai posters on here are clueless and you would offer them doh? Well, I gues the sli will work ok for you as a 7 year fo. Think about your "brothers" below you; why should they sacrifice doing things the 'hard" way and let these aai guys jump ahead of them? Hopefully you're a lone voice at swa.

Oh and throw in a 2 year fence in atl. Great deal for those guys.

 

[Ty Webb]

Sundowner, I can't wait for AMR to buy you guys, and then jump in THOSE threads and talk about how you need to suck it up on the street for a few years while they train all those TWA guys to do your job.

 

[S3sundowner]

Ty, I can't wait to see you guys get what you deserve at swa. All your talking on here is a joke; you guys can't honestly believe the dross that you spout. Like I said, be grateful and happy that you will be at a company that you like to work for AND you make a lot more money, wherever you may fall. You guys are giving yourselves a VERY bad rap at swa before you even fall on the doorstep. Don't ruin a good thing. GK will not let you guys spoil the party, believe me.

 

[General Lee]

Ty, I can't wait to see you guys get what you deserve at swa. All your talking on here is a joke; you guys can't honestly believe the dross that you spout. Like I said, be grateful and happy that you will be at a company that you like to work for AND you make a lot more money, wherever you may fall. You guys are giving yourselves a VERY bad rap at swa before you even fall on the doorstep. Don't ruin a good thing. GK will not let you guys spoil the party, believe me.

The arbitrator(s) will make that decision. I hope everyone on this thread copies what is written, and sends it to the lawyers, since they will be arguing it with the neutrals. And GK will have NO say when it comes to arbitration. And who will have a bad "rap" before going to SWA? Who cares? You get in the plane, and you fly it. You will ALL have the same uniforms (Fonzi like jackets), and it won't matter after 6 months goes by. You are making way too much out of this.

And you Mr Jetblue, better watch out with AA sniffing your heiny. That really won't be fun if that ever happens.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Crash Pad]

Ok so my quick scan of the thread shows. Straight date of hire. No seat locks etc.

Is that what will keep poop out of my seat?

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

The arbitrator(s) will make that decision. I hope everyone on this thread copies what is written, and sends it to the lawyers, since they will be arguing it with the neutrals. And GK will have NO say when it comes to arbitration. And who will have a bad "rap" before going to SWA? Who cares? You get in the plane, and you fly it. You will ALL have the same uniforms (Fonzi like jackets), and it won't matter after 6 months goes by. You are making way too much out of this.

And you Mr Jetblue, better watch out with AA sniffing your heiny. That really won't be fun if that ever happens.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Why do care about this so much?

Very strange.

 

[texman]

How much is it costing SWA to purchase AT?

I think it is 600+ mil cash and 57 million in stock purchase, but then again why sell a biz if they felt it was going to be long term successful. Did I hear AT was 2 bil in debt?

 

[General Lee]

Why do care about this so much?

Very strange.

Very strange? We just went through this, and all of this exact stuff happened prior to our SLI. Guess what? The arbitrators made the decisions, and it was about right down the middle, something you SWA guys can't seem to understand. But, I do think it is comical watching this because of your extreme cockiness, and it will be great to see the final outcome. It won't be what you are expecting, which is DOH, STAPLE, or anything close to that. It is time for you to start embrasing that idea. Have fun.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I think it is 600+ mil cash and 57 million in stock purchase, but then again why sell a biz if they felt it was going to be long term successful. Did I hear AT was 2 bil in debt?

Think how much debt DL and NWA had prior to the merger? Plenty. Did it matter to the arbitrators? Nope. F9 was in BK, but AT is not even close. Every company carries some debt, even SWA, right? Keep swinging, maybe you will hit something....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[texman]

Think how much debt DL and NWA had prior to the merger? Plenty. Did it matter to the arbitrators? Nope. F9 was in BK, but AT is not even close. Every company carries some debt, even SWA, right? Keep swinging, maybe you will hit something....


Bye Bye--General Lee

Gen it's all good, this is not two government bail out carriers. Yes I understand your point about arbitration. We can't do anything about it, that's if it does go to arbitration. Yes, after the Acquisition is complete SWA will be carrying alot of AT debt. What people don't understand is the share holders of both sides see this as a opportunity to make a lot of cash. The Rioc will hit 25% which will create explosive growth to 2000-07 levels. What I would be worried about gen is your own turf in ATL, and MSP. Remember the little airline that could in Texas. Well our mgt still feels the need to grow and not be the little guy.

 

[texman]

What ever body needs to watch out for the only legacy carrier that is sitting on a lot of cash and that never went BK. AMR will buy us all, unless Volaris does.lol

 

[Full of LUV]

Gen it's all good, this is not two government bail out carriers. Yes I understand your point about arbitration. We can't do anything about it, that's if it does go to arbitration. Yes, after the Acquisition is complete SWA will be carrying alot of AT debt. What people don't understand is the share holders of both sides see this as a opportunity to make a lot of cash. The Rioc will hit 25% which will create explosive growth to 2000-07 levels. What I would be worried about gen is your own turf in ATL, and MSP. Remember the little airline that could in Texas. Well our mgt still feels the need to grow and not be the little guy.

Texman,
Hope your right, just not sure how many more connecting the dots are waiting in "untapped" territory, perhaps SWA can double again but "explosive" growth is harder when your company is already large, SWA is no longer a "little" airline.
Also a point of order, DAL or NWA didn't take (actually never applied) for ATSB loans, or "Govt Bailouts" as you refer to them, in fact only "little" airlines ever received loans from the govt post 9/11 and even UAL was shut out. The airlines went BK which means the creditors (private companies) took losses on credit extended to the companies along with bond holders and banks who make loans. In the end though, both companies were able to find additional private investors to exit bankruptcy on their own.
We'll see how "explosive" the growth is, but to discount your competition can be to your peril.
And yes the pilot profession owes a debt of gratitude to SWAPA for the elimination of DB pilot pensions and age 65 advocacy along with the $59 fares, those have been a hoot!

 

[Full of LUV]

What ever body needs to watch out for the only legacy carrier that is sitting on a lot of cash and that never went BK. AMR will buy us all, unless Volaris does.lol

Wow, and here I thought you actually worked for SWA..... AMR has more debt than a millenium realestate investor in LAS.

 

[redflyer65]

You will ALL have the same uniforms (Fonzi like jackets),


Bye Bye--General Lee

Says the Riverboat FO. That's the worse looking jacket I've seen.

Full steam ahead General!