"Airline types need not apply"

[fisherpilot]

I get to choose my hotel and shoot as many deer as I can on my bosses ranch.

Are you hiring anytime soon?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Departments that blatantly say 'no airline types' scream EGOMANIAC IN CHARGE! At least IMHO...

Sure, places will have turnover whether it's people leaving to go the airlines or return to the airlines or people going to other departments, but in the end, what are the department dynamics? Who hires pilots? What's the compensation package? What is the total package like? What is the department manager like as a leader? What is the chief pilot like to work for? All those things have a HUGE play when it comes to turnover - blaming airline pilots is a copout and a weak one at that.

If you are flying a large cabin bizjet for a reputable company, chances are you won't see that money for quite a while, if ever, at the airlines. Yet, you still may see furloughed airline pilots and even pure corporate pilots take significant paycuts to go/return to the airlines. You have to ask yourself why? The easiest thing is to point the finger and blame others - be it "airline types" or whatever. But is that really why?

Lotta truth here...

The guy running the department really sets the tone and it can be great....or it can be terrible.

All these owners are rather high mx and thats just part of the gig...but working with/for good people makes all the difference in the world.

Nothing worse than a spineless department manager who wont watch your back, insists on office time, countless stupid meetings, micromangages expenses, etc etc...

Pilots are really pretty easy people. They are willing to work their asses off so long as you treat them well - and its not just money.

Most corp pilots really take pride in doing a good job but a crappy manager can make the entire atmosphere suck.

 

[Paradoxus]

I've been 91/135 exclusively for over a decade, having never set foot on an airline property. I'm presently in a well-paying pt. 91 flight department as PIC.

The anti-airline types that contaminate this business are, succinctly, hyper-envious, washed-up losers. They suffer from a constellation of failings: some know they couldn't make the cut for whatever reason, others began their careers with a vile contempt for people whom actually fly aircraft (and do nothing else) for a living.

Those among us whom fly the line, so to speak, and feel airline life isn't for them are exempt from this exposition. An honest observer such as myself is forced to wonder, however, why one would avoid the prospect of yearly pay increases, actual time off, professional maintenance, union representation, etc.

 

[AA717driver]

Pilots are really pretty easy people. They are willing to work their asses off so long as you treat them well - and its not just money.

Most corp pilots really take pride in doing a good job but a crappy manager can make the entire atmosphere suck.

As usual, you get the big picture.

TC

 

[Ty Webb]

It's all in the individual . . We hired a bunch of Delta guys that took early retirement in order to save their pensions. I probably flew with 2 dozen of them. They were almost all former 767ER Check Airmen.

I would say that nearly all of them would have been great corporate pilots. They just had great attitudes, were pleasant to work with, and did a great job. They never complained, even though they went from one of the top jobs at Delta to one of the bottom jobs at AirTran (flying FO for yours truly). Great bunch of guys.

BTW, a crappy flight dept manager can make things suck, but imagine that same guy now screwing things up for 2,000 Pilots . . . That's the airline equivalent. At least at the airlines, the ******************************bag doesn't have your home number.

 

[enigma]

Lotta truth here...

The guy running the department really sets the tone and it can be great....or it can be terrible.

All these owners are rather high mx and thats just part of the gig...but working with/for good people makes all the difference in the world.

Nothing worse than a spineless department manager who wont watch your back, insists on office time, countless stupid meetings, micromangages expenses, etc etc...

Pilots are really pretty easy people. They are willing to work their asses off so long as you treat them well - and its not just money.

Most corp pilots really take pride in doing a good job but a crappy manager can make the entire atmosphere suck.

Ditto

I've been out of Corporate for almost 13 years, so I don't feel qualified to speak to the current attitude toward "airline" pilots, but I will say this: two of the three corporate chief pilots I worked for were spineless. I had no problem checking to ensure that all of the snacks were fresh, but I had/have a huge problem closing my eyes while the chief pilot busts minimums because he doesn't have the spine to tell the boss "it ain't happening today Boss".

 

[Freight Dog]

Pilots are really pretty easy people. They are willing to work their asses off so long as you treat them well - and its not just money.

AMEN!!! But this seems like an impossible concept to grasp for so many...

 

[ksu_aviator]

I've been 91/135 exclusively for over a decade, having never set foot on an airline property. I'm presently in a well-paying pt. 91 flight department as PIC.

The anti-airline types that contaminate this business are, succinctly, hyper-envious, washed-up losers. They suffer from a constellation of failings: some know they couldn't make the cut for whatever reason, others began their careers with a vile contempt for people whom actually fly aircraft (and do nothing else) for a living.

Those among us whom fly the line, so to speak, and feel airline life isn't for them are exempt from this exposition. An honest observer such as myself is forced to wonder, however, why one would avoid the prospect of yearly pay increases, actual time off, professional maintenance, union representation, etc.

Honest observer? Honest observers don't lump everyone into one pile. Neither you nor the person that posted the ad in the OP seem to get it. Your job does not define you.

In all professions you have people that are control freaks, jerks, laid back, friendly and any other adjective you want to use. Whether they are pilots that fly for a major airline or "sanitation engineers", people will have a wide range of personalities.

You wonder why people don't want to go to the airlines? Having been there and left, I can tell you that I don't like being a number. I don't need the union "protection" because I don't do anything to work against my employer. I don't like airlines because I don't like to commute. I don't like airlines because you work a lot more than the typical flight department. I don't like airlines because I don't get to make decisions, I have to follow procedures and profiles that aren't always the best/safest practice.

But that's just me. If you like to just show up, fly the airplane and go home then maybe that's the life for you. I prefer to be involved, develop real relationships with my crew AND passengers/owners and tackle the challenges that come from flying to less than well traveled airports.

Like I said, to each his own.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Ditto

I've been out of Corporate for almost 13 years, so I don't feel qualified to speak to the current attitude toward "airline" pilots, but I will say this: two of the three corporate chief pilots I worked for were spineless. I had no problem checking to ensure that all of the snacks were fresh, but I had/have a huge problem closing my eyes while the chief pilot busts minimums because he doesn't have the spine to tell the boss "it ain't happening today Boss".

wow - busting published mins to get the boss in? no thanks.

Only person I bust mins for is myself. If my cars there (my ride home) mins are adjusted appropriately.



Reckless corporate cowboy with no Union Representation and no SOPS!

 

[say again]

Honest observer? Honest observers don't lump everyone into one pile. Neither you nor the person that posted the ad in the OP seem to get it. Your job does not define you.

In all professions you have people that are control freaks, jerks, laid back, friendly and any other adjective you want to use. Whether they are pilots that fly for a major airline or "sanitation engineers", people will have a wide range of personalities.

You wonder why people don't want to go to the airlines? Having been there and left, I can tell you that I don't like being a number. I don't need the union "protection" because I don't do anything to work against my employer. I don't like airlines because I don't like to commute. I don't like airlines because you work a lot more than the typical flight department. I don't like airlines because I don't get to make decisions, I have to follow procedures and profiles that aren't always the best/safest practice.

But that's just me. If you like to just show up, fly the airplane and go home then maybe that's the life for you. I prefer to be involved, develop real relationships with my crew AND passengers/owners and tackle the challenges that come from flying to less than well traveled airports.

Like I said, to each his own.

Well said! I did the airline thing, and have no desire to go back at this time.

 

[BoilerUP]

Reckless corporate cowboy with no Union Representation and no SOPS!

Complete ten flight risk matrix forms and say five "Hail ISBAO"s and you're good!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Complete ten flight risk matrix forms and say five "Hail ISBAO"s and you're good!

GOM Review with ISBAO guy...

"100ft"..."check"

"minimums, runway not in sight"...."roger, continuing"..

lol..

 

[Paradoxus]

Honest observer? Honest observers don't lump everyone into one pile.

Nonsense. I never said exceptions could not exist. Themes, however, do exist, and this one is common-enough.

Neither you nor the person that posted the ad in the OP seem to get it. Your job does not define you.

Oh no, I'm afraid I do get it. I get it all too well, as it takes someone of my particular disposition to call these plays as they are. It is axiomatic that one's job should not define them.

In the corporate world, however, the job defines more people than otherwise. I've been made to listen to enough corporate pilot bullsh*t to fill the Grand Canyon.

Example for your consideration:

Corporate drivers arrive at the bar. Banefully uninteresting/uninspired talk of avionics/engine mod kits/etc. prevails. Work-related cellphone rings fill the air.

Airline pilots arrive at the bar. Normalcy in conversation prevails. The job is left behind, better subject matter is tabled--life is lived.

This observation is by no means comprehensive, however it has been my experience enough that this is the case the majority of the time.

In all professions you have people that are control freaks, jerks, laid back, friendly and any other adjective you want to use. Whether they are pilots that fly for a major airline or "sanitation engineers", people will have a wide range of personalities.

Certainly. I challenge nothing here.

You wonder why people don't want to go to the airlines? Having been there and left, I can tell you that I don't like being a number.

I'm sorry to have to be the one to disestablish this fantastic illusion for you, but we're all numbers; be it employee or cost/benefit-analysis.

I don't need the union "protection" because I don't do anything to work against my employer.

Ah yes...only those who seek to sabotage an operation need protection. All management decisions are just, of course.

I don't like airlines because I don't like to commute.

Who does? Then again, we don't all live in BFE.

I don't like airlines because you work a lot more than the typical flight department.

Seems to me all of my airline friends work considerably less, as none of them are on the 30 on/0-off schedule I must endure.

I don't like airlines because I don't get to make decisions, I have to follow procedures and profiles that aren't always the best/safest practice.

For example? I find nothing but the most conservative procedures/philosophies dominate airline SOP's.

But that's just me. If you like to just show up, fly the airplane and go home then maybe that's the life for you.

Fair enough. That is, after all, why I and most everyone else got into this business. If I had the slightest inclination for any other brand of nonsense, I would have done something else.

I prefer to be involved, develop real relationships with my crew AND passengers/owners and tackle the challenges that come from flying to less than well traveled airports.

Every time I hear this line (very nearly verbatim, ad infinitum) and apply the requisite philosophical considerations I come away more mystified than before.

It is most often used as a weak justification for the superiority of this type of flying, when it should be relegated to the same classificatory bag as "...well, I love that Lears have cup-holders built into the cockpit side walls, so given that I could see myself as flying nothing else..."

Make no mistake, everyone enjoys it (at least until they have to deal with the attendant bullsh*t of small town airport accomodations). As we have addressed that this profession should not define the man, however, should not the appropriate concerns be somewhere in the realm of QOL, money, and time-off to do the wife/girlfriend thing? Given these essentials, pax/crew relationships, small airport inconveniences, etc. be damned, no?

Like I said, to each his own.

No question. This is FI, however, a forum of debate. :beer:

 

[say again]

Example for your consideration:

Corporate drivers arrive at the bar. Banefully uninteresting/uninspired talk of avionics/engine mod kits/etc. prevails. Work-related cellphone rings fill the air.

Airline pilots arrive at the bar. Normalcy in conversation prevails. The job is left behind, better subject matter is tabled--life is lived.

This observation is by no means comprehensive, however it has been my experience enough that this is the case the majority of the time.

I've experienced both sides, have heard both, and I'm gonna have to disagree with you completely!! Don't know who you work/worked for, but you must have not been around many pilots if this is your experience. BTW- not knocking, just disagreeing. :beer:

All this generalization on who has the better job, or who is the better pilot is BS!! It's all personal preference. If one doesn't like, well, it's your choice to go find a job you do enjoy. I happen to enjoy the corporate world for now, but that's not to say I will not go back to the airline world later on.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Example for your consideration:

Corporate drivers arrive at the bar. Banefully uninteresting/uninspired talk of avionics/engine mod kits/etc. prevails. Work-related cellphone rings fill the air.

Airline pilots arrive at the bar. Normalcy in conversation prevails. The job is left behind, better subject matter is tabled--life is lived.

OH???

I could also say the majority of airline guys do nothing at the bar but talk about lines, bids, and the never-ending contract union bull$hit. Is that fair?

They cant even cross the ocean and enjoy a meal with clogging up 123.45 with it at 3am.

Airline pilots leaving the job behind....LOL, now thats a good one.

Most corporate guys I fly with wont even stay at "crew" hotels as to avoid the airline crowd.

I can also attest that constant airplane/job no-life talk is not tolerated for very long at dinner/cocktail time with 99% of the corporate guys I know. Its certainly something most I know think about when hiring people! Anyone can fly a plane (even the mighty Boeing!) now does this person have a life?

The vast majority like to leave the job at the plane. I hope (and assume) thats also the case in the airline world.

Many of us enjoy layovers even if it costs us a few bucks. Ever see a few airline guys fight over a $12 bar tab after free cocktail hour ended and they forgot to run away?? or the commuter guys fighting over the granola bars (lunch) at the breakfast buffet??........its funnier $hit than a dozen 80yr old Long Island broads out to lunch in Palm Beach!!





Making generalizations is generally pretty ignorant, no?

 

[Paradoxus]

I've experienced both sides, have heard both, and I'm gonna have to disagree with you completely!! Don't know who you work/worked for, but you must have not been around many pilots if this is your experience. BTW- not knocking, just disagreeing. :beer:

Ok, ok. Fair enough. imp:

All this generalization on who has the better job, or who is the better pilot is BS!! It's all personal preference. If one doesn't like, well, it's your choice to go find a job you do enjoy. I happen to enjoy the corporate world for now, but that's not to say I will not go back to the airline world later on.

Well said. I find no fault with anything you've said, except that the thematic element tabled here is the moronic stereotyping of airline drivers by washed-up corporate types. As a corporate type myself, I always viewed the playground-esque practice disgusting beyond measure, and revolting asymmetric.

I just took it a step further, citing the prejudice as evidentiary of deeper problems.

 

[Paradoxus]

OH???
Making generalizations is generally pretty ignorant, no?

Indeed so, which, again, is the general theme here as we started this journey when someone complained about the imbecilic prejudice levied against former-airline applicants.

If you recall, however, I couched my observations with a warning that such were by no means, necessarily comprehensive. I'm simply calling the plays as I've seen them.

Here we sit as time drags on, and still nobody has tabled compelling justification for the asymmetric exclusion of former airline pilots in corporate aviation.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Indeed so, which, again, is the general theme here as we started this journey when someone complained about the imbecilic prejudice levied against former-airline applicants.

If you recall, however, I couched my observations with a warning that such were by no means, necessarily comprehensive. I'm simply calling the plays as I've seen them.

Here we sit as time drags on, and still nobody has tabled compelling justification for the asymmetric exclusion of former airline pilots in corporate aviation.

and absolutely no question about it - we would immediately kick your a$$ if you EVER talked like this at dinner.

 

[Paradoxus]

and absolutely no question about it - we would immediately kick your a$$ if you EVER talked like this at dinner.

It would definitely make a worthy footnote in The Battle History of the Civil Air Patrol.

You'd have to bring the force of your whole squadron to bear to even stand a chance, Colonel.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

It would definitely make a worthy footnote in The Battle History of the Civil Air Patrol.

You'd have to bring the force of your whole squadron to bear to even stand a chance, Colonel.

My hair may be badly thinning and my teeth kinda gnarly, but we do lots of pushups in front of our Cessna 172 and we are ready to fight!