Seniority dispute ends at US Airways

[get2flyin]

Total inflammatory nonsense. No one would return from furlough and be able to hold PHX Captain. Why does misrepresenting the truth make you guys so horny? What is it about blathering total garbage on FI.com trying to get mesa pilots to worship you that gets you off so much?

And to finish with the inane statement that Nic settled the dispute.....It might get settled someday, but Nic had nothing to do with settling it.

Not inflammatory at all. Under the ORIGINAL DOH proposal ALPA wanted, that's EXACTLY what could have happened.

Under USAPA's C&Rs proposal, in the even of another furlough the C and R's go away and PHX is fair game. Under the "fair" DOH with C&Rs, guys who were furloughed at the time of the merger would be "senior" to many West Captains and could take advantage of the resulting vacancy bid to become Captains. How is THAT blathering garbage? I thought so.

And like it or not, Nic settled seniority.

 

[Cowboy75]

Westies like to misrepresent the truth. Just watch the Kirby session . The amount of lies and words spoken are just amazing. Kirby just keeps shaking his head wondering where these Westies come up with this .

Anyway, the Westies just do not get it. The desperation shows. (By the way, who is that dork with that retarded T shirt?) Funny how Kirby refers to a lottery ticket that you can not cash when he talks about the Nic. Watch the F/A session. Very eye opening about the value of PHX.

NIC DOA

M

Marty,

I just watched the crew news after reading your post. Were you watching the same session that I just saw? First, I'm a bit confused how you get access to crew news when you claim that you are not a US Airways employee? Why don't you you clear that up for many of us? The company is on record stating that the Nic is the only accepted list per the TA. They know that USAPA is bent on presenting a list other than the Nic. They were hoping the 9th would have brought a resolution to the case. The 9th punted and the company understands that the DFRII guns are loaded and ready to fire.

There is only one list the company has accepted and it is not DOH.

 

[charlie2]

Marty,

I just watched the crew news after reading your post. Were you watching the same session that I just saw? First, I'm a bit confused how you get access to crew news when you claim that you are not a US Airways employee? Why don't you you clear that up for many of us? The company is on record stating that the Nic is the only accepted list per the TA. They know that USAPA is bent on presenting a list other than the Nic. They were hoping the 9th would have brought a resolution to the case. The 9th punted and the company understands that the DFRII guns are loaded and ready to fire.

There is only one list the company has accepted and it is not DOH.

OK Cowboy but how can you actually use the Nic? There HAS to be a ratified contract in order to use it right? No one I know will vote for any contract that has the nic list and this was true with the previous union as is with the current one. So how will you get to use it?

 

[TWA Dude]

No one I know will vote for any contract that has the nic list and this was true with the previous union as is with the current one.

I know you guys like to say that but it remains to be proven (and I know you'll excuse us for not taking your word for it). The "snapback" grievance result will soon be announced and I'm sure it will be a loss for USAPA (and I say that matter-of-fact-ly with no gloating). A joint contract was 80% done in 2007 when the company was profitable. Now USAPA's thus-far successful strategy of delay, delay, delay will mean several more years of LOA93 wages and work rules while the industry passes us by. At some point enough Easties will want the money and a better QOL. That point is probably coming sooner than you're comfortable admitting on a message board.

 

[Metrojet]

I know you guys like to say that but it remains to be proven (and I know you'll excuse us for not taking your word for it). The "snapback" grievance result will soon be announced and I'm sure it will be a loss for USAPA (and I say that matter-of-fact-ly with no gloating). A joint contract was 80% done in 2007 when the company was profitable. Now USAPA's thus-far successful strategy of delay, delay, delay will mean several more years of LOA93 wages and work rules while the industry passes us by. At some point enough Easties will want the money and a better QOL. That point is probably coming sooner than you're comfortable admitting on a message board.

Twa Dude -

The only group of Easties WHO MIGHT HAVE voted for a JC if one was proposed in 2007 would have been the very top of the list - now that most of those at the top are able to recieve PBGC benefits and keep flying for another few years have no need to vote in a JC that included the Nic, since they are only going to be here a few more years anyway and have gotten a raise (plus waiting on LOA 93 settlement) - so let me repeat this - NOT ONE PILOT that I have talked to would vote yes for a contract with Nic -

We are fine on the east with seperate ops and people retiring in the next few years - I cannot speak for those on the west - and whatever happens in the courts - they cannot take away my NO vote for a bad contract as per the TA.

Metrojet

 

[gutshotdraw]

OK Cowboy but how can you actually use the Nic? There HAS to be a ratified contract in order to use it right? No one I know will vote for any contract that has the nic list and this was true with the previous union as is with the current one. So how will you get to use it?

When the court FINALLY and UNEQUIVOCALLY tells the company and USAPA that the NIC is the NIC and is THE FINAL ARBITRATION RESULT. You know, that whole BINDING thing. Which the court WILL.

And that day CAN'T come soon enough so I can finally hear the horns honking and sirens blaring on my next visit to Philly instead of the whining coming from the airport.

 

[charlie2]

I know you guys like to say that but it remains to be proven (and I know you'll excuse us for not taking your word for it). The "snapback" grievance result will soon be announced and I'm sure it will be a loss for USAPA (and I say that matter-of-fact-ly with no gloating). A joint contract was 80% done in 2007 when the company was profitable. Now USAPA's thus-far successful strategy of delay, delay, delay will mean several more years of LOA93 wages and work rules while the industry passes us by. At some point enough Easties will want the money and a better QOL. That point is probably coming sooner than you're comfortable admitting on a message board.

I jumpseat to work and back and do lots of SAPing and riding the bid sheet so I am exposed to many differant pilots in the company and yes they may be lying to me but they say they won't vote for a contract with the nic. By the way a "snapback" is technically a differant animal then the expiration of a pay freeze which is our position on this grievance.

 

[charlie2]

When the court FINALLY and UNEQUIVOCALLY tells the company and USAPA that the NIC is the NIC and is THE FINAL ARBITRATION RESULT. You know, that whole BINDING thing. Which the court WILL.

And that day CAN'T come soon enough so I can finally hear the horns honking and sirens blaring on my next visit to Philly instead of the whining coming from the airport.

Are you implying that a court will force me to vote yes on the first contract?

 

[Cowboy75]

OK Cowboy but how can you actually use the Nic? There HAS to be a ratified contract in order to use it right? No one I know will vote for any contract that has the nic list and this was true with the previous union as is with the current one. So how will you get to use it?

Charlie,

TWA Dude explains it pretty well.

Two comments about DOH. There is a good chance the courts are going to tell the company the Nic is the list. There is also Leonidas and DFRII to contend with. I guess I can ask the same question. What seniority list are you going to use when DOH gets booted?

I think you may have to come to the conclusion that any contract will include the arbitratd award will be part of any contract put on the table. If you are sure that a contract which includes the Nic will be voted down, give us the eopportunity to vote on a contract.

There should be nothing to worry about since you have the majority, right?

 

[gutshotdraw]

Are you implying that a court will force me to vote yes on the first contract?

Nope. I'm saying there won't be a new contract until the Nic is the list. In the meantime, you will continue to be paid sub-standard wages. Probably until the majority of the East retires or comes to its senses.

 

[TWA Dude]

- so let me repeat this - NOT ONE PILOT that I have talked to would vote yes for a contract with Nic -

So then I'll repeat: we don't believe you. You'll just have to prove it.

By the way a "snapback" is technically a differant animal then the expiration of a pay freeze which is our position on this grievance.

Whatever. The arbitration IMO is lost. (Once again, no gloating.)

 

[charlie2]

Charlie,

TWA Dude explains it pretty well.

Two comments about DOH. There is a good chance the courts are going to tell the company the Nic is the list. There is also Leonidas and DFRII to contend with. I guess I can ask the same question. What seniority list are you going to use when DOH gets booted?

I think you may have to come to the conclusion that any contract will include the arbitratd award will be part of any contract put on the table. If you are sure that a contract which includes the Nic will be voted down, give us the eopportunity to vote on a contract.

There should be nothing to worry about since you have the majority, right?

I never thought DOH was the right thing to do but giving zero credit for 16 years of service is also not the right thing to do so if my only choice is DOH or the nic it will be DOH. If we are court ordered to negotiate a contract using only the nic and we can vote it down a few times maybe we can go back to that court with that and ask for some relief. Maybe I am being lied to by other pilots and they will vote for any contract even with the nic but I really believe they wont. Cowboy, I used to chuckle at your previous message at the bottom of your posts that said something like no nic...chaos. I bet you guys hired a bunch of guys in their 30's and maybe even a few in their 20's and I know age has nothing to do with any legal or even Nicolaus' decision making but it sure will affect the day to day line flying! I'm in my 50's and if the nic was implimented right now I would have your 04/05 hires as my captains and you think there will be chaos with no nic? Anyone who flys the line should know there are a billion ways to make the other pilot miserable without affecting safety. I know because every month I avoid bid the few miserable ones we have! With the nic my new 30 year old captain will spend the next 35 years as a captain the last 20 as a wide body captain. What's that about 6 million in earnings? With the nic I will spend the last 10 years of mine as a narrow body FO...what's that about a half million? Sure hope nothing happens to get us both fired i.e over flying MSP as my 30 year old captain has so much more to lose than I!!! Nic=Chaos

 

[Cowboy75]

Cowboy, I used to chuckle at your previous message at the bottom of your posts.

Charlie,

I chuckled at your Carlin link on the near-miss thread. We are not going to agree on much except our shared sense of humor.

Here's one from the funniest cowboy:
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=16277227

 

[Guppiedriver]

I never thought DOH was the right thing to do but giving zero credit for 16 years of service is also not the right thing to do so if my only choice is DOH or the nic it will be DOH. If we are court ordered to negotiate a contract using only the nic and we can vote it down a few times maybe we can go back to that court with that and ask for some relief. Maybe I am being lied to by other pilots and they will vote for any contract even with the nic but I really believe they wont. Cowboy, I used to chuckle at your previous message at the bottom of your posts that said something like no nic...chaos. I bet you guys hired a bunch of guys in their 30's and maybe even a few in their 20's and I know age has nothing to do with any legal or even Nicolaus' decision making but it sure will affect the day to day line flying! I'm in my 50's and if the nic was implimented right now I would have your 04/05 hires as my captains and you think there will be chaos with no nic? Anyone who flys the line should know there are a billion ways to make the other pilot miserable without affecting safety. I know because every month I avoid bid the few miserable ones we have! With the nic my new 30 year old captain will spend the next 35 years as a captain the last 20 as a wide body captain. What's that about 6 million in earnings? With the nic I will spend the last 10 years of mine as a narrow body FO...what's that about a half million? Sure hope nothing happens to get us both fired i.e over flying MSP as my 30 year old captain has so much more to lose than I!!! Nic=Chaos

A 04/05 hire is barely employed, if not furloughed, yet he/she could hold captain on the east?.....come on!

16 years at US Airways got you a position on list of furloughed pilots or at the bottom of the seniority list. The Nicolau list accounts for this. USAPA's DOH list puts this same pilot next to a 16 year AWA captain with uninterrupted service that has been a captain for 8 years.

Since the beginning, the east pilots have not offered any compromise on seniority. Why is it all or nothing with you guys?

 

[charlie2]

Charlie,

I chuckled at your Carlin link on the near-miss thread. We are not going to agree on much except our shared sense of humor.

Here's one from the funniest cowboy:
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=16277227

That was great, thanks! We also agree that there will most likely be a bit of chaos in the future although I believe it wont affect safety like some of my colleages think. It will just take some of the fun out of a job that should be fun.

 

[MCDU]

How many westies would vote for a contract with DOH. You westies know that answer just like easties know how many would with Nic.

M

 

[Cowboy75]

That was great, thanks! We also agree that there will most likely be a bit of chaos in the future although I believe it wont affect safety like some of my colleages think. It will just take some of the fun out of a job that should be fun.

I thought you would like that, Charlie. As far as safety is concerned, when it is time to fly, I don't let this debate bother me. It seems to bother posters such as B-*$#@ though. I leave it for the boards and off the line.

Fly safe and enjoy the job.

 

[Metrojet]

So then I'll repeat: we don't believe you. You'll just have to prove it.

Whatever. The arbitration IMO is lost. (Once again, no gloating.)

TWA Dude -

No need to prove it - a "contract with the nic" will not even be submitted from the NC to the BPR or to the majority for a vote.

As to the arbitration (settlement) for LOA 93 decision - you have some inside info on how you can be so cocky (once again)? Just like the Nineth Circuit decision was ("IMO") going in the westies favor?

Man - (once again, no gloating) some of you sure are cocky - "Hey - I won the lottery (for the East Captain Seats), and then during the "out of order" furloughs (for the East First Officer Seats).

With all due respect - I'll stay in CLT until I retire if you promise to stay in PHX until you retire.

Metrojet

 

[charlie2]

A 04/05 hire is barely employed, if not furloughed, yet he/she could hold captain on the east?.....come on!

Yes the most junior west pilot is a captain with the nic.

16 years at US Airways got you a position on list of furloughed pilots or at the bottom of the seniority list. The Nicolau list accounts for this. USAPA's DOH list puts this same pilot next to a 16 year AWA captain with uninterrupted service that has been a captain for 8 years.

Not a DOH fan.

Since the beginning, the east pilots have not offered any compromise on seniority. Why is it all or nothing with you guys?

Not accurate.

 

[TWA Dude]

TWA Dude -

No need to prove it - a "contract with the nic" will not even be submitted from the NC to the BPR or to the majority for a vote.

Here's how I see this all going down. The least likely scenario for the judge in the company's suit for declaratory judgment is to say the company can do whatever it likes without worry of liability. Therefore, even if the suit is dismissed outright the company will tell USAPA it won't negotiate away from the Nicolau list. Once y'all realize the raison d'etre for USAPA has failed the majority will decide to get a raise.

No need to prove it? Well, if you don't care whether anybody believes anything you say I guess that would be true. Personally, I don't see the point in posting if people think I'm a liar.

As to the arbitration (settlement) for LOA 93 decision - you have some inside info on how you can be so cocky (once again)?

I expressed my opinion without chest beating or gloating. Any cockyness you perceived came from your own mind.

With all due respect - I'll stay in CLT until I retire if you promise to stay in PHX until you retire.
Metrojet

Sounds great. All you have to do is convince an arbitrator that's reasonable. Oops, he didn't agree with your proposal. I wonder why?