UAL/CAL near deal

[suupah]

DOH should be considered and given some weight but it should not be the only thing looked at.

 

[Flopgut]

The current CAL list isn't even in DOH order. DOH is one factor.

How do you sort out seniority in a single class of 50 new hires on the same day? See the problem?

 

[thor2j]

Relative to what? The only fair standard is the day you were hired. How does your airline determine which nonrevs get boarded first? DOH. How do you bid for positions on your pilot seniority list? DOH. How do all the ohter unions bid for vacation? DOH. See the pattern?

DOH makes no sense when companys come from different backrounds. What r u going to do when a company hasn't done anything for years while another company has grown for the same years. DOH is barely in the equation. With relative seniority there is as little damage as possible.

And by the way at AA, non rev travel is whoever clicks on the mouse first.

 

[SuperFLUF]

It is kind of exciting to think of working for a major airline that has major domestic and international hubs in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, San Francisco and Washington DC as well as major presences in both Narita and Heathrow, sounds like a very promising company. As said before though, I am cautiosly optimistic.

A promising company provided, Tilton is neutered as the chairman and the board replaces Smisek with an operations guy who knows what the hell he's doing. (CAL's decent quality mgmt left when Gordo left the barstool)

 

[bizicmo]

Relative to what? The only fair standard is the day you were hired. How does your airline determine which nonrevs get boarded first? DOH. How do you bid for positions on your pilot seniority list? DOH. How do all the ohter unions bid for vacation? DOH. See the pattern?

How is the newhire class seniority determined? Date of birth or SS#. Well this will be a new company. Should the new seniority list be created by SS#? The most junior pilot on both list could be the most senior on the combined list.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Again folks...let'em work it out. 2 to 3 years after this deal (if it works) all furloughs will be back (i anticipate much sooner than later) and this airline will provide stable high incomes w/ benefits for all pilots. Those who say more furloughs will come are mistaken. NO DEAL if more furloughs happen I guarantee it

 

[contrail67]

How is the newhire class seniority determined? Date of birth or SS#. Well this will be a new company. Should the new seniority list be created by SS#? The most junior pilot on both list could be the most senior on the combined list.

Goes by the last 4 of your SS# at United...closer you are to 0000 the more senior you are in your new hire class.

 

[eaglesview]

Not trying to stir it up. Just trying to see what an arbitrator might make of this gaping hiring gap at CAL while UAL hired 2000. That's going to be a difficult part of the list to put together. Apparently, it can get very dynamic in the bottom third. From another thread:

Please don't use post by Mr. G. Lee to make your point, it only weakens your position.

 

[General Lee]

Please don't use post by Mr. G. Lee to make your point, it only weakens your position.

You just can't handle the truth. Look at the past two cases---USAir and DL. You can try to say that a UAL/CAL merger wouldn't be the same, but you would of course be WRONG. They are alike companies, with widebodies and narrowbodies, INTL and DOM flying, etc. Your two groups will give the arbitrators (yes, it will go to arbitrators) a list of what THEY think is fair, and the arbitrators will decide. Category and Status will make up some of the eventual list, but overall IT WILL look like relative seniority, regardless if the bottom UAL guy has been there 12 years, and the bottom CAL guys has been there 3 years. CAL is a stronger airline financially, so there goes the career expectations argument from the UAL guys. Both airlines have a chunk of retirements coming up too. All of that will be looked at by the arbitrators, but don't expect DOH to be factors at all. Look at precedent. You have to, because the arbitrators will be. Good luck!

When the last merger announcement was made, look at your percentage in your OWN company. That will be VERY close to where you end up in the merged one. (+ or - 1 or 2%) Get used to it. The UAL guys will benefit a lot regardless because the CAL guys will bring up the pay and work rules, something the UAL MEC hasn't been able to do for years. That will soften the blow of seeing a younger CAL guy next to you in seniority.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[EL10]

Gen Lee I think you are talking out of school as you don’t understand the differences or similarities between the CAL and UAL work rules. It is CAL pilots that will benefit from the work rules of UAL. The pay is a wash when you add in the retirement contributions. UAL will gain in scope.

Bottom line here is how much is the company willing to pay to get ALPA and AFA onboard.

On a side note how many 737-300s did CAL park these past two years?

 

[densoo]

Please don't use post by Mr. G. Lee to make your point, it only weakens your position.

OK.

General Lee,

Did the SLI run like this?:

Take all the pilots on the property and merge them, so the most senior pilot on each list are next to each other, and the most junior pilot on the property are next to each other, and everyone in between is generally integrated in some way determined by arbitrator.

Then, take all the pilots not on the property and merge them, so the most senior pilot on each list not on the property are next to each other, and the most junior pilot not on the property are next each other.

Then, take the second list and put it under the first list.

 

[thor2j]

Gen Lee I think you are talking out of school as you don’t understand the differences or similarities between the CAL and UAL work rules. It is CAL pilots that will benefit from the work rules of UAL. The pay is a wash when you add in the retirement contributions. UAL will gain in scope.

Bottom line here is how much is the company willing to pay to get ALPA and AFA onboard.

On a side note how many 737-300s did CAL park these past two years?

They pay is a wash????
A 3% less retirement for a 20% pay cut, that's not a wash.

There isn't a CAL guy out there that will benefit from this disaster.

 

[FDJ2]

OK.

General Lee,

Did the SLI run like this?:

Take all the pilots on the property and merge them, so the most senior pilot on each list are next to each other, and the most junior pilot on the property are next to each other, and everyone in between is generally integrated in some way determined by arbitrator.

Then, take all the pilots not on the property and merge them, so the most senior pilot on each list not on the property are next to each other, and the most junior pilot not on the property are next each other.

Then, take the second list and put it under the first list.

Here is a brief summary of how the lists were constructed at DAL/NWA if that's what you are asking.

"We have chosen, instead, to recognize the fleets as divided simply into wide-body and narrow-body groupings, two for Captains, two for FOs.12"​

"12 All Delta and NWA B757s are considered wide-body aircraft for this purpose because Delta operates its B767s and 757s as a combined fleet."

"Constructing the Integrated System Seniority List.​

The ISSL has been constructed from the pre-merger Delta and pre-merger
Northwest pilot seniority lists in effect on November 1, 2008, as provided to the Panel by the parties, in the manner set forth below.​

The relative position of each pilot on the pre-merger lists remained unchanged on the ISSL.(no reordering of premerger lists)​

1. All pilots on long-term sick leave (12 months or longer) were removed
from the pre-merger lists. (taken out for the purposes of constructing status/category ratios of active pilots)​

2. The 274 oldest Northwest pilots were removed from the pre-merger list.
(credit given to NWA pilots for increased attrition over the near term) ​

3. The first 3045 positions on the ISSL were filled with the first 1961 Delta
pilots and 1084 Northwest pilots on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of 1961:1084 beginning with a Delta pilot.(wide bodied captains positions)​

4. The next 2433 positions on the ISSL were filled with the next 1313 Delta pilots and 1120 Northwest pilots on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of
1313:1120 beginning with a Delta pilot.(narrow bodied captain positions)​

5. The next 3932 positions on the ISSL were filled with the next 2580 Delta pilots and 1352 Northwest pilots on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of
2580:1352 beginning with a Delta pilot.(wide bodied first officer positions)​

6. The ISSL was completed with Delta and Northwest pilots remaining on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of 1314:957 Delta to Northwest pilots beginning with a Delta pilot until both pre-merger lists are exhausted subject to paragraph 7, below.(narrow bodied first officer positions)​

7. All pilots with dates of hire after April 14, 2008, were placed at the bottom of the ISSL in order of date of hire.(pilots hired by DAL after the merger announcement)​

8. The Northwest pilots pulled in paragraph 2. were inserted directly above
the next junior Northwest pilot.(the 274 oldest NWA pilots pulled out earlier are plugged back in to account for greater NWA pilot retirements in the near term)​

9. The pilots on long-term sick leave pulled in paragraph 1. were inserted
directly above the next junior pilot on his/her respective pre-merger list."
(these pilots aren't active and were pulled out at the beginning)​

 

[Flybywire44]

Good luck CAL/UAL guys... Hope this ends well and Tilton fades from the picture.

 

[densoo]

Here is a brief summary of how the lists were constructed at DAL/NWA if that's what you are asking.

Thanks.