So was B19 right or wrong?

[imacdog]

Couldn't agree more. But where was this reaction when Olsen and clan pushed IBB because of the 10-15% stipend in OT, holiday pay, etc. They claimed we should consider this in the total income picture. Lots of bobble heads went right along with this. Try telling your creditors that.

As I said before, those who were counting on that extra income to be needed in their financial planning were idiots. People can say whatever they want - it's up to the individual to determine whether to follow that advice or not.

Also, if I remember correctly, the pay rates in IBB were pushed because they were equal to the 2005 rates plus the 10-15% that people were accustomed to. No longer did a 5-year captain need to bring in any overtime to break 100K.

 

[AvroJockey]

Bobby serves a purpose. He solidifies our reasoning. He provides an opportunity to educate both ourselves and others. We need someone who is constantly and obviously wrong so we see more clearly what is right. JMO

Oh yes...contrast!!! Thanks!

 

[7777]

I am declaring B-19 the winner!

1. RTS is gone
2. One round of furloughs completed
3. Another round on the way
4. Then the contract will be opened.

Sorry it happened this way for those out of a job, but B-19 was right.

 

[gunfyter]

Work without a union -- Is at Pilot's own Risk!

I am declaring B-19 the winner!

1. RTS is gone
2. One round of furloughs completed
3. Another round on the way
4. Then the contract will be opened.

Sorry it happened this way for those out of a job, but B-19 was right.

B-19 is a loser.

19 predicted the reason things happened is because of a union.... The case has not been made... And is demonstrably FALSE!

And ... everyone is better off there is a union compared to if there were not a union ... including those who were furloughed (we saw how people without a union were treated) ... and those who got to keep their 401K match who are not yet in the union.

Contract will be re-opened in 2013. I will be looking for another raise then

 

[B19 Flyer]

B-19 is a loser.

19 predicted the reason things happened is because of a union.... The case has not been made... And is demonstrably FALSE!

And ... everyone is better off there is a union compared to if there were not a union ... including those who were furloughed (we saw how people without a union were treated) ... and those who got to keep their 401K match who are not yet in the union.

Contract will be re-opened in 2013. I will be looking for another raise then

Gun, my predictions are not predictions. They are simply noting the repeating policy of union behavior that you simply refuse to acknowledge. That behavior causes an unstable work force and great turmoil which in turn puts union and non-union jobs at risk.

Industry leading contracts always follow the same cycles, and the current NJ contract is no exception. It is doing the exact same thing that the great industry leading 121 contracts did in 2000/2001.

Contracts signed in good times fail when the economy cycles down. RTS was a hero when that was signed just like Carty, Mullen and all the others were 10 years ago. They all became villians when the union had to cough up concessions like NJ is about to do.

In reality, the unions blackmailed for more than the company could afford when times got tough. I've stated repeatedly that when times are good unions love management but when times get touch unions are slow to react and blame the company for the failure when it's the economy stupid. Fixed cost does not work with a union contract, people lose jobs, contract or not and everybody suffers. Non unionized work forces adjust faster and turmoil is greatly reduced.

Normal stuff... your contract is causing great misery to the work force at NJ, unionized or not.

 

[imacdog]

So B, why did much of NJA management get replaced? As far as I know they are not unionized. You'd think if they were doing a great job that they wouldn't be shown the door, no?

 

[B19 Flyer]

So B, why did much of NJA management get replaced? As far as I know they are not unionized. You'd think if they were doing a great job that they wouldn't be shown the door, no?

The same exact thing happened at United, American and Delta. It's union history repeating itself. Heros during good times, villians during bad.

It's why industry leading contracts fail. The NJ contract has already failed because it did not protect those workers that are furloughed.

 

[imacdog]

You didn't answer my question at all.

 

[dime line]

Under Fire for Perks, Chief Quits American Airlines

By EDWARD WONG

Published: April 25, 2003

In a series of stunning events, Mr. Carty's career began to crumble on the night of April 15, when American made a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission that disclosed that the company had decided last March to give seven executives cash bonuses equal to up to twice their base salaries if they stayed until January 2005. Based on his salary of $811,000 in 2002, Mr. Carty's bonus would have been more than $1.6 million. The same filing also showed that American had made a $41 million pretax payment last October into a trust fund set up to protect the pensions of 45 executives if the company went into bankruptcy.

The unionized workers, who had just finished voting to accept the concessions, became infuriated after learning about the arrangements in news reports on April 17. Not only had American given out what the workers viewed as lavish perks at a time when the airline was asking them for cutbacks, but it appeared to them that Mr. Carty had delayed the securities filing by at least two weeks to hide information that might jeopardize the votes

All but one of the directors refrained from commenting publicly on the situation despite demands from workers and governance experts that they explain what they knew about Mr. Carty's decision to delay disclosure of the executive benefits.
On Wednesday night, the lone exception, Mr. Boren, said he would make a motion at the meeting to oust Mr. Carty and accused him of lying to both the board and to some of his fellow executives about whether he had told union leaders about the benefits. Mr. Boren, a former member of the United States Senate, told The Tulsa World that ''Mr. Carty has lost the credibility and trust necessary to effectively lead the company through challenging times.''

Yo DA19 hate to rag on your management mentor, but good 'ol Carty was a Villian long before the bad times. Better luck next time

 

[B19 Flyer]

Yo DA19 hate to rag on your management mentor, but good 'ol Carty was a Villian long before the bad times. Better luck next time

Hate to pop that ego of yours... but all those CEOs were heros when they agreed to the contracts.

If the economy hadn't had a downturn and the givebacks were not necessary, nobody would have ever complained about the salaries any of the CEOs were making that were agreed to by the boards.

You see, just like all of you want to hang your hats on the fact that those large union contracts were agreed to by the company, those big CEO salaries were also agreed to by the boards.

Beat you with facts again there beavis.. (or is it butthead?)

 

[B19 Flyer]

You didn't answer my question at all.

I answered you question to the point. Which part of it did you not understand?

As the economy failed after the union beat the company down with an industry leading contract, it always seems as though management gets blamed for the failure so they fall on their swords. RTS is a great example of that, just like all the others 8 years ago.

Simply history repeating itself, the cycle of union life.

 

[ozpilot]

Gun, my predictions are not predictions.

Do you read what you write?

 

[Helmsalee]

Peter Principle. From a book by that name (brain fart, can't remember the author). Says that if you do a good job you get promoted. This repeats until you get a job you cannot handle. Then you stay in that job forever.
Helm

 

[gutshotdraw]

Peter Principle. From a book by that name (brain fart, can't remember the author). Says that if you do a good job you get promoted. This repeats until you get a job you cannot handle. Then you stay in that job forever.
Helm

Beat me to it Helm (been off making the donuts).

If I recall the statement, "Every person rises to the level of their own incompetence."

 

[imacdog]

I answered you question to the point. Which part of it did you not understand?

As the economy failed after the union beat the company down with an industry leading contract, it always seems as though management gets blamed for the failure so they fall on their swords. RTS is a great example of that, just like all the others 8 years ago.

Simply history repeating itself, the cycle of union life.

It has nothing to do with union life. The union did not fire these managers. So please enlighten us, why did these managers get fired if they were doing their jobs well?

 

[doh]

The same exact thing happened at United, American and Delta. It's union history repeating itself. Heros during good times, villians during bad.

It's why industry leading contracts fail. The NJ contract has already failed because it did not protect those workers that are furloughed.

B19 is correct in that it is impossible for everyone to be protected in all circumstances by the union. He is wrong in that he will not apply the same standard to management. Neither management nor the union is able to protect all workers in all situations. We at Flexjet have furloughs. If I apply the same impossible standard to our management, they have failed because they failed to protect all workers. It doesn't make sense in either case. Therefore B19s logic is EPIC FAIL!

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19 is correct in that it is impossible for everyone to be protected in all circumstances by the union. He is wrong in that he will not apply the same standard to management. Neither management nor the union is able to protect all workers in all situations. We at Flexjet have furloughs. If I apply the same impossible standard to our management, they have failed because they failed to protect all workers. It doesn't make sense in either case. Therefore B19s logic is EPIC FAIL!

Management in a non-union company does everything they can to maintain a stable, profitable company that will continue to do the best it can for all employees, not just a specific work group. When cuts happen, they are surgical to the areas within the company to where they need to be. Furloughs or layoffs may happen and when they do, the concept is that no work group is favored over another.

Unions however charge their brethren dues to protect a specific work group within a company. They are paid advocates. Those dues are meant to create security and that is what a union member pays for. That means if union employees are furloughed within a certain work group, the union has failed because they did not live up to their promise of protecting the people they are paid to protect which is the reason they put the union on the property in the first place.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Do you read what you write?

Yes... I stated exactly as I wanted to state. The "predictions" are not "predictions". The are simply the factual union cycle that creates hell for all employees affected by them.

 

[brokeflyer]

Management in a non-union company does everything they can to maintain a stable, profitable company that will continue to do the best it can for all employees, not just a specific work group. When cuts happen, they are surgical to the areas within the company to where they need to be. Furloughs or layoffs may happen and when they do, the concept is that no work group is favored over another.

Unions however charge their brethren dues to protect a specific work group within a company. They are paid advocates. Those dues are meant to create security and that is what a union member pays for. That means if union employees are furloughed within a certain work group, the union has failed because they did not live up to their promise of protecting the people they are paid to protect which is the reason they put the union on the property in the first place.

that is quite inaccurate. I don't really care for unions either, when I was in management I always thought they were rather out dated. However, management failed to get it done and someone has to keep them in line. Otherwise the destruction of the company is a real possibility. Then us managers take our huge parachute and move on to another company and apply the same poor performance as before.

from a pilot position, it's sad that we even need a union to keep management from doing dumb things. They all say that safety is their number one concern but that's only for the papers. Sacrificing a few passengers in the name of profit is acceptable to management but it isnt acceptable from a pilot perspective.

B19, I joke around a lot with you, its all good fun. But a word of advice, you're entitle to your opinion but your attitude about it is all wrong. Don't blame the pilots, they don't have a choice.

 

[doh]

Management in a non-union company does everything they can to maintain a stable, profitable company that will continue to do the best it can for all employees, not just a specific work group. When cuts happen, they are surgical to the areas within the company to where they need to be. Furloughs or layoffs may happen and when they do, the concept is that no work group is favored over another.

Unions however charge their brethren dues to protect a specific work group within a company. They are paid advocates. Those dues are meant to create security and that is what a union member pays for. That means if union employees are furloughed within a certain work group, the union has failed because they did not live up to their promise of protecting the people they are paid to protect which is the reason they put the union on the property in the first place.

Now I see where your misconception is. A union does not promise perfect protection from all economic woes. A union promises to represent your interests collectively (rather than individually) in dealing with management. The union provides greater bargaining power through the group than the individual would have on his own. This is not a promise of a perfect world. Only the promise of a better world. Glad I could clear that up for you. Move along, nothing more to see here...