So was B19 right or wrong?

[wacoflyr]

Wow, I've had my post taken out of context by TWO non-fractional types! I feel privileged, somehow..... Maybe I just feel misquoted. Okay, I'm just misunderstood. Hey what the hell, can't you two read!?!?!

 

[fischman]

Wow, I've had my post taken out of context by TWO non-fractional types! I feel privileged, somehow..... Maybe I just feel misquoted. Okay, I'm just misunderstood. Hey what the hell, can't you two read!?!?!

Sorry, I didn't read your post.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Do YOU work without a contract?:erm:

I do not have a contract. How many times are you going to ask me that question?

 

[B19 Flyer]

That is not what I said. This is aviation, and the only absolute is uncertainty. What I did say was that NetJets would not furlough in '09, which they didn't and I proved you WRONG.

I also proved you wrong over and over again when you stated that this "turmoil" to use your word, was created by NJASAP when in fact it was the company under out prior leadership which created this situation. NJASAP PROACTIVELY worked with the company to minimize the negative effects on NetJets families (at which time we as a Union again proved you WRONG as you ALWAYS cry about how reactionary unions are) which led to voluntary measures.

I also proved you wrong in that the company has not 1) come asking for concessions, 2) benefits being reduced, 3) CBA concessions being approved by the Union. Hasn't happened.

You see, this is how to PROVE someone wrong. I'd like to see you PROVE ANYTHING I have typed wrong. Hard, quantifiable, facts please. You CAN'T do it. Why? NJASAP does not match the mold. We are not the UAW, ALPA, or the Teamsters. I'd LOVE to see you try to PROVE ME WRONG.

"Stooge"? Name calling is the last resort of a weak mind. IS that why you can't prove anything?

fischman,

Every union pilot on this board has stated for YEARS that NJ would never furlough. That happened didn't it? You are one of those pilots. The semantics of the exact date is not relevent. The contract did not protect their jobs, and it never will yet there is an implied protection that a union contract brings.

As far as I'm concerned, the voluntary reductions were akin to a furlough. That is turmoil within the family unit. Just because you escaped it doesn't mean those families didn't go through hell. They did. I've been there, and making those decisions is actually harder that a clean layoff where the decision is made for you.

The top pilots were protected, the bottom were cut loose. You don't care about the bottom third of the seniorty list. It's the union way.

There are generally two furloughs before the contract gets backed into a corner and gets opened up. In effect, that's already happened, one voluntary, one not.

Say what you want, your union claimed "PROACTIVE" but instead really used smoke and mirrors to hide the inevitable and give the appearance they were doing the best they could. You believed it so in essence you got suckered by it.

Opening the contract would have done the same thing and shown best efforts and good faith the pilots the company and the owners.. didn't happen.

As far as my humor about you being a stooge? It was a play of your avatar which I personally thought was funny and clever. You on the other hand didn't. Sorry you didn't catch the humor.

That contract has caused great harm at NJ. Had it not been so radical and been more middle of the road many jobs would have been saved. There would not have been as many pilots hired to adjust to the work rules and the high pilot to plane ratio. Those pilots would have never been forced to make career decisions.

Split your hairs if you want... union fracs are still laying off and non union are hiring.... put that in your pipe and smoke it.

The mold? Exactly as history states. And when that contract gets opened, just like the furloughs that never were supposed to happen, I'll accept your humble apology.


And with that.. I just handed your butt to you.

 

[brokeflyer]

I think avantair needs a union. They need to spread that wealth over to the pilots who carry that company.

 

[7777]

The two furloughed NetJet pilots I mentioned that I met recently, said the next round of furloughs and downgrades will be announced next week.

Best wishes and sincere condolances to those that it affects.

 

[brokeflyer]

The two furloughed NetJet pilots I mentioned that I met recently, said the next round of furloughs and downgrades will be announced next week.

Best wishes and sincere condolances to those that it affects.

they may call more furloughs but not downgrades.....The contract is rather tight on downgrades.

Now you have been properly educated.

 

[Pervis]

The two furloughed NetJet pilots I mentioned that I met recently, said the next round of furloughs and downgrades will be announced next week.

Best wishes and sincere condolances to those that it affects.

Can't say whether or not there will be another round, but I'm curious how furloughed folks know more than those still employed. None of us know what will be announced, if anything. All I know is demand is up, sales are improving, and most are working shifts like days of old. We'll see.

 

[7777]

Next time I see them I will ask. It was something they brought up in conversation and I really didn't seek any other information. I was just listening.

I believe one of them mentioned they still had a good friend in management at NetJets that is passing this on to them. Both of these guys now work at the same company.

 

[fischman]

Next time I see them I will ask. It was something they brought up in conversation and I really didn't seek any other information. I was just listening.

I believe one of them mentioned they still had a good friend in management at NetJets that is passing this on to them. Both of these guys now work at the same company.

Unless your friend's friend is DS, I wouldn't put much faith in it.

 

[Willy21]

In the RTS days everybody knew what was going to happen before it happened. Sokol doesn't work that way. He keeps his cards close to his chest and has a very tight circle that he make decisions with. Anything can happen in the meeting on Monday. That includes more furloughs, no furloughs, or maybe an updated recall time line.

I have always been told that it is the rumor that you have not heard that you need to worry about. I believe that holds true at this time. Good luck to all of NetJets employees both active and inactive.

 

[jenex]

I bet on more furloughs are gonna be announced at the meeting. The economy still can't support the number of jets that NJA is operating and won't for several years.

 

[Mach92]

I bet on more furloughs are gonna be announced at the meeting. The economy still can't support the number of jets that NJA is operating and won't for several years.

Wrong thanks for playing

 

[gutshotdraw]

**Disclaimer: The following is not meant to cast aspersions on the employees or clients of any fractional aviation company.

I define it as the union fracs are still pulling back while the non-union fracs are still chugging along and even beginning to hire.

This seems to be the favorite phrase of the month by our friend. I guess he subscribes to the political concept that if you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth. Let's review, shall we?

Union

Netjets: Chaos! Mayhem! Red ink! Er....um...oh yeah, that was 2009, the worst economy in three generations. Cost-cutting? Absolutely. Layoffs? Unfortunate, but necessary. Profitable again? I'll wait for the 10K filing at the end of the year but I'm expecting a pre-tax profit north of $175 million. Long-term? Still the biggest and best marketed but it all depends on the economy and that won't improve much until there's a major shift in fiscal politics.

Flight Options: Chaos! Mayhem! Red ink! Oh yeah, that was BEFORE they were union. And the worst economy in three generations. Beat up employee group? Definitely. Crap management? For sure. Profitable again? Who knows but at least the company can market labor peace. Long-term? Find somebody that actually knows how to run a company and they might have a shot.

Non-Union

CitationAir: Growth! Profits! Hiring! Er....um...oh yeah, not so much. Parked airplanes. Laid off pilots. Rumors of sale or shutdown. And the worst economy in three generations. Long-term? Haven't a clue.

Flex Jet: Growth! Profits! Hiring! Um....er....second verse, same as the first. Long-term? That Challenger 300 is a sweet airplane and is the best thing going for Flex. They will be back. Just as soon as the economy is.

Avantair: Growth! Profits! Hiring! Well, yeah. I'm not Rain Man but I can do some math: (Turboprops cheaper than jets) + (Worst economy in three generations) X (Rich folks that won't ride the airlines anymore) = Successful niche market model. Long-term? Depends on how aggressive their management wants to get in challenging the market leaders.

Bottom line: The success or failure of any fractional operation depends far more on the talent of its management and the health of the economy than whether a union is on the property. I'm not a member of a union (for about another 218 days) and I'm not a big fan but I fail to see a reason to rail incessantly against them. I know its futile to argue facts with our friend but hey, somebody has to.
​

 

[Crash Pad]

I havent heard any rumors of sale or shut down at CA. Actually quite opposite, the rumors I hear are money being made for Textron, and possible recalls and upgrades. That being said, they are just rumors. I am one to wait and see what happens because I can't do anything about it. There are more important things in life than a job.

 

[7777]

Damn man, you just crushed his 'political concept' theory.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't CA STILL have parked airplanes and laid off pilots? So much for "chugging along."

 

[imacdog]

According to APC, 64 are still on furlough out of 399 total. Apparently those furloughs don't disrupt people's lives because they are non-union?

 

[doh]

imac, Those lives are not disrupted in his world because management is held to a much lower standard. They work vaguely for the good of all. The union is held to the standard of perfect employment protection. I believe I exposed him quite well on that point. You could give me some props for that, you know.:laugh:

 

[imacdog]

True dat. Now I guess we can watch as this thread will fall off the first page for a month or so, then B19's best buddy 7777 will come back and revive it again.