So was B19 right or wrong?

[platinum750]

B-19 is right. Unions jam everything up. NJ is drowning because of that contract. RTS is an idiot.

 

[gunfyter]

So...

It the Unions fault that the Rich and Famous are having their homes go into foreclosure as talked about in the WSJ article I posted a link to?

Not Bush's fault, not Barney Frank's fault or Chris Dodd ... or Countrywide or Fannie Mae?

Its the Union's fault Margins were called in late 2007?

Got it. Thanks

 

[B19 Flyer]

So...

It the Unions fault that the Rich and Famous are having their homes go into foreclosure as talked about in the WSJ article I posted a link to?

Not Bush's fault, not Barney Frank's fault or Chris Dodd ... or Countrywide or Fannie Mae?

Its the Union's fault Margins were called in late 2007?

Got it. Thanks

No. It's the unions fault for not recognizing that the rich and famous were having their homes go into foreclosure and that it was pretty obvious that the contract negotiated during the good times wasn't going to hold up during the bad times causing mass layoffs and near billion dollar losses for NJ. The union would never consider an adjustment to the contract to match the shrinking economy.

It's a champaign contract that can only afford beer but forces champaign to be served even if it's unaffordable.

THAT is the unions fault, not the economy.

While the rest of the company has been suffering give backs and furloughs, the top seniority list pilots are still paid at the highest wage possible and getting rich off the contract.

You think that's right. I don't. The "pain" should be spread evenly, and the contract should be structured to avoid layoffs to the maximum extent possible.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Now I see where your misconception is. A union does not promise perfect protection from all economic woes. A union promises to represent your interests collectively (rather than individually) in dealing with management. The union provides greater bargaining power through the group than the individual would have on his own. This is not a promise of a perfect world. Only the promise of a better world. Glad I could clear that up for you. Move along, nothing more to see here...

They don't promise? Every pilot on these boards, (dimeline being one of them) thinks that the protections offered by the contract will be the end all to the evils of life.

Not true. The implied promises never pan out, as the FLOPS pilots are about to find out.

 

[B19 Flyer]

that is quite inaccurate. I don't really care for unions either, when I was in management I always thought they were rather out dated. However, management failed to get it done and someone has to keep them in line. Otherwise the destruction of the company is a real possibility. Then us managers take our huge parachute and move on to another company and apply the same poor performance as before.

from a pilot position, it's sad that we even need a union to keep management from doing dumb things. They all say that safety is their number one concern but that's only for the papers. Sacrificing a few passengers in the name of profit is acceptable to management but it isnt acceptable from a pilot perspective.

B19, I joke around a lot with you, its all good fun. But a word of advice, you're entitle to your opinion but your attitude about it is all wrong. Don't blame the pilots, they don't have a choice.

Broke, I've never blamed the pilots on these boards, but I do blame misrepresentation of what a union can do and how they portray in to the average line pilot.

You can't tell me as a former CP you didn't go through a grievance process where a pilot kept his job that should have been driving a dump truck instead of an airplane. It happens all the time. We both know that.

 

[gunfyter]

I think I am paid correctly.... And that the CBA negatively affects NO ONE....

If the CBA were to be adjusted ... NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON would benefit. EVERYONE who lost their job ... would be on the street regardless. Every single one.

That IS the History of concessions in the Aviation Industry.... Plain and simple.

No. It's the unions fault for not recognizing that the rich and famous were having their homes go into foreclosure and that it was pretty obvious that the contract negotiated during the good times wasn't going to hold up during the bad times causing mass layoffs and near billion dollar losses for NJ. The union would never consider an adjustment to the contract to match the shrinking economy.

It's a champaign contract that can only afford beer but forces champaign to be served even if it's unaffordable.

THAT is the unions fault, not the economy.

While the rest of the company has been suffering give backs and furloughs, the top seniority list pilots are still paid at the highest wage possible and getting rich off the contract.

You think that's right. I don't. The "pain" should be spread evenly, and the contract should be structured to avoid layoffs to the maximum extent possible.

 

[brokeflyer]

Broke, I've never blamed the pilots on these boards, but I do blame misrepresentation of what a union can do and how they portray in to the average line pilot.

You can't tell me as a former CP you didn't go through a grievance process where a pilot kept his job that should have been driving a dump truck instead of an airplane. It happens all the time. We both know that.

you sure got that right.

 

[wacoflyr]

They don't promise? Every pilot on these boards, (dimeline being one of them) thinks that the protections offered by the contract will be the end all to the evils of life.

Quite the generalization there. It calls into question your comprehension of other's writings. Many of us work without contracts, are happy that way, and have expressed the fact on "these boards." What else do you make up?

 

[RCR5]

Sorry to read about the next round of layoffs fellas. That sucks big time and my sincere condolances to those it has affected.

I also believe B-19 was right. Fire away!

Hopefully this debate can be put to rest now.

 

[AeroBoy]

Hopefully this debate can be put to rest now.

Ever think about going into comedy? That's funny right there, I don't care who you are...

 

[BeenThereDoneIt]

Quite the generalization there. It calls into question your comprehension of other's writings. Many of us work without contracts, are happy that way, and have expressed the fact on "these boards." What else do you make up?

"Many?" Perhaps the young and naive........but I seen very few who are OK without a contract.

 

[fischman]

Just checked my email, pager, and on crewops. Nothing about a second round. B19 wasn't right about anything. If you can't see that, you're blind.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Fisch,

The meeting is the 19th (ironic, isn't it?). Reserve judgment on this particular issue until then. But I agree with you that the knucklehead is wrong about a lot of things.

 

[gunfyter]

Fisch,

The meeting is the 19th (ironic, isn't it?). Reserve judgment on this particular issue until then. But I agree with you that the knucklehead is wrong about a lot of things.

WTC vs OKC?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Just checked my email, pager, and on crewops. Nothing about a second round. B19 wasn't right about anything. If you can't see that, you're blind.

fischman, you and your union cronies for years said there wouldn't be a first round of layoffs at NJ. Then, when all the pilot golden parachutes were handed out, you and your gang patted yourselves on the back while all those pilots were forced to voluntarily give up their jobs, and you didn't call that a layoff. Then came the first real layoff and you still wouldn't admit the contract was failing.

Now.... in order for history to repeat itself, there will be at least one more layoff, and then the contract will be opened. That's how it always seems to work.

Oh, and one thing that I've always said about you that's never been false... ever... is that you are a stooge...

 

[B19 Flyer]

"Many?" Perhaps the young and naive........but I seen very few who are OK without a contract.

Very few what, pilots? Do you forget how many air carrier workers are out there that aren't unionized? The bad part is, that those are the people that get affected the most when unions play their games and they are nothing more than innocent bystanders that become collateral damage when a union makes life miserable for all.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Sorry to read about the next round of layoffs fellas. That sucks big time and my sincere condolances to those it has affected.

I also believe B-19 was right. Fire away!

Hopefully this debate can be put to rest now.

These are union folks... they only believe what their union tells them.

Just like all those years they told us that the rich clientele was too rich to allow NJ to fail and the economy wouldn't affect them.

How big was that NJ loss last year as their clients were to rich to fail? And I guess it's important to define failure. I define it as the union fracs are still pulling back while the non-union fracs are still chugging along and even beginning to hire.

Thanx for your support!

 

[B19 Flyer]

Quite the generalization there. It calls into question your comprehension of other's writings. Many of us work without contracts, are happy that way, and have expressed the fact on "these boards." What else do you make up?

Those of you that work without contracts understand exactly what I'm saying, that the contract isn't the magic fix all that the unions promise it will be. The union has brainwashed all these people into thinking that paying dues is going to protect them and make the company instantly a better place to work. That isn't the case. In most cases, there was nothing wrong to begin with until the union came in promising utopia.

 

[fischman]

fischman, you and your union cronies for years said there wouldn't be a first round of layoffs at NJ. Then, when all the pilot golden parachutes were handed out, you and your gang patted yourselves on the back while all those pilots were forced to voluntarily give up their jobs, and you didn't call that a layoff. Then came the first real layoff and you still wouldn't admit the contract was failing.

Now.... in order for history to repeat itself, there will be at least one more layoff, and then the contract will be opened. That's how it always seems to work.

Oh, and one thing that I've always said about you that's never been false... ever... is that you are a stooge...

That is not what I said. This is aviation, and the only absolute is uncertainty. What I did say was that NetJets would not furlough in '09, which they didn't and I proved you WRONG.

I also proved you wrong over and over again when you stated that this "turmoil" to use your word, was created by NJASAP when in fact it was the company under out prior leadership which created this situation. NJASAP PROACTIVELY worked with the company to minimize the negative effects on NetJets families (at which time we as a Union again proved you WRONG as you ALWAYS cry about how reactionary unions are) which led to voluntary measures.

I also proved you wrong in that the company has not 1) come asking for concessions, 2) benefits being reduced, 3) CBA concessions being approved by the Union. Hasn't happened.

You see, this is how to PROVE someone wrong. I'd like to see you PROVE ANYTHING I have typed wrong. Hard, quantifiable, facts please. You CAN'T do it. Why? NJASAP does not match the mold. We are not the UAW, ALPA, or the Teamsters. I'd LOVE to see you try to PROVE ME WRONG.

"Stooge"? Name calling is the last resort of a weak mind. IS that why you can't prove anything?

 

[fischman]

Those of you that work without contracts understand exactly what I'm saying, that the contract isn't the magic fix all that the unions promise it will be. The union has brainwashed all these people into thinking that paying dues is going to protect them and make the company instantly a better place to work. That isn't the case. In most cases, there was nothing wrong to begin with until the union came in promising utopia.

Do YOU work without a contract?:erm: