So was B19 right or wrong?

[doh]

The same exact thing happened at United, American and Delta. It's union history repeating itself. Heros during good times, villians during bad.

It's why industry leading contracts fail. The NJ contract has already failed because it did not protect those workers that are furloughed.

B19 is correct in that it is impossible for everyone to be protected in all circumstances by the union. He is wrong in that he will not apply the same standard to management. Neither management nor the union is able to protect all workers in all situations. We at Flexjet have furloughs. If I apply the same impossible standard to our management, they have failed because they failed to protect all workers. It doesn't make sense in either case. Therefore B19s logic is EPIC FAIL!

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19 is correct in that it is impossible for everyone to be protected in all circumstances by the union. He is wrong in that he will not apply the same standard to management. Neither management nor the union is able to protect all workers in all situations. We at Flexjet have furloughs. If I apply the same impossible standard to our management, they have failed because they failed to protect all workers. It doesn't make sense in either case. Therefore B19s logic is EPIC FAIL!

Management in a non-union company does everything they can to maintain a stable, profitable company that will continue to do the best it can for all employees, not just a specific work group. When cuts happen, they are surgical to the areas within the company to where they need to be. Furloughs or layoffs may happen and when they do, the concept is that no work group is favored over another.

Unions however charge their brethren dues to protect a specific work group within a company. They are paid advocates. Those dues are meant to create security and that is what a union member pays for. That means if union employees are furloughed within a certain work group, the union has failed because they did not live up to their promise of protecting the people they are paid to protect which is the reason they put the union on the property in the first place.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Do you read what you write?

Yes... I stated exactly as I wanted to state. The "predictions" are not "predictions". The are simply the factual union cycle that creates hell for all employees affected by them.

 

[brokeflyer]

Management in a non-union company does everything they can to maintain a stable, profitable company that will continue to do the best it can for all employees, not just a specific work group. When cuts happen, they are surgical to the areas within the company to where they need to be. Furloughs or layoffs may happen and when they do, the concept is that no work group is favored over another.

Unions however charge their brethren dues to protect a specific work group within a company. They are paid advocates. Those dues are meant to create security and that is what a union member pays for. That means if union employees are furloughed within a certain work group, the union has failed because they did not live up to their promise of protecting the people they are paid to protect which is the reason they put the union on the property in the first place.

that is quite inaccurate. I don't really care for unions either, when I was in management I always thought they were rather out dated. However, management failed to get it done and someone has to keep them in line. Otherwise the destruction of the company is a real possibility. Then us managers take our huge parachute and move on to another company and apply the same poor performance as before.

from a pilot position, it's sad that we even need a union to keep management from doing dumb things. They all say that safety is their number one concern but that's only for the papers. Sacrificing a few passengers in the name of profit is acceptable to management but it isnt acceptable from a pilot perspective.

B19, I joke around a lot with you, its all good fun. But a word of advice, you're entitle to your opinion but your attitude about it is all wrong. Don't blame the pilots, they don't have a choice.

 

[doh]

Management in a non-union company does everything they can to maintain a stable, profitable company that will continue to do the best it can for all employees, not just a specific work group. When cuts happen, they are surgical to the areas within the company to where they need to be. Furloughs or layoffs may happen and when they do, the concept is that no work group is favored over another.

Unions however charge their brethren dues to protect a specific work group within a company. They are paid advocates. Those dues are meant to create security and that is what a union member pays for. That means if union employees are furloughed within a certain work group, the union has failed because they did not live up to their promise of protecting the people they are paid to protect which is the reason they put the union on the property in the first place.

Now I see where your misconception is. A union does not promise perfect protection from all economic woes. A union promises to represent your interests collectively (rather than individually) in dealing with management. The union provides greater bargaining power through the group than the individual would have on his own. This is not a promise of a perfect world. Only the promise of a better world. Glad I could clear that up for you. Move along, nothing more to see here...

 

[platinum750]

B-19 is right. Unions jam everything up. NJ is drowning because of that contract. RTS is an idiot.

 

[gunfyter]

So...

It the Unions fault that the Rich and Famous are having their homes go into foreclosure as talked about in the WSJ article I posted a link to?

Not Bush's fault, not Barney Frank's fault or Chris Dodd ... or Countrywide or Fannie Mae?

Its the Union's fault Margins were called in late 2007?

Got it. Thanks

 

[B19 Flyer]

So...

It the Unions fault that the Rich and Famous are having their homes go into foreclosure as talked about in the WSJ article I posted a link to?

Not Bush's fault, not Barney Frank's fault or Chris Dodd ... or Countrywide or Fannie Mae?

Its the Union's fault Margins were called in late 2007?

Got it. Thanks

No. It's the unions fault for not recognizing that the rich and famous were having their homes go into foreclosure and that it was pretty obvious that the contract negotiated during the good times wasn't going to hold up during the bad times causing mass layoffs and near billion dollar losses for NJ. The union would never consider an adjustment to the contract to match the shrinking economy.

It's a champaign contract that can only afford beer but forces champaign to be served even if it's unaffordable.

THAT is the unions fault, not the economy.

While the rest of the company has been suffering give backs and furloughs, the top seniority list pilots are still paid at the highest wage possible and getting rich off the contract.

You think that's right. I don't. The "pain" should be spread evenly, and the contract should be structured to avoid layoffs to the maximum extent possible.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Now I see where your misconception is. A union does not promise perfect protection from all economic woes. A union promises to represent your interests collectively (rather than individually) in dealing with management. The union provides greater bargaining power through the group than the individual would have on his own. This is not a promise of a perfect world. Only the promise of a better world. Glad I could clear that up for you. Move along, nothing more to see here...

They don't promise? Every pilot on these boards, (dimeline being one of them) thinks that the protections offered by the contract will be the end all to the evils of life.

Not true. The implied promises never pan out, as the FLOPS pilots are about to find out.

 

[B19 Flyer]

that is quite inaccurate. I don't really care for unions either, when I was in management I always thought they were rather out dated. However, management failed to get it done and someone has to keep them in line. Otherwise the destruction of the company is a real possibility. Then us managers take our huge parachute and move on to another company and apply the same poor performance as before.

from a pilot position, it's sad that we even need a union to keep management from doing dumb things. They all say that safety is their number one concern but that's only for the papers. Sacrificing a few passengers in the name of profit is acceptable to management but it isnt acceptable from a pilot perspective.

B19, I joke around a lot with you, its all good fun. But a word of advice, you're entitle to your opinion but your attitude about it is all wrong. Don't blame the pilots, they don't have a choice.

Broke, I've never blamed the pilots on these boards, but I do blame misrepresentation of what a union can do and how they portray in to the average line pilot.

You can't tell me as a former CP you didn't go through a grievance process where a pilot kept his job that should have been driving a dump truck instead of an airplane. It happens all the time. We both know that.

 

[gunfyter]

I think I am paid correctly.... And that the CBA negatively affects NO ONE....

If the CBA were to be adjusted ... NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON would benefit. EVERYONE who lost their job ... would be on the street regardless. Every single one.

That IS the History of concessions in the Aviation Industry.... Plain and simple.

No. It's the unions fault for not recognizing that the rich and famous were having their homes go into foreclosure and that it was pretty obvious that the contract negotiated during the good times wasn't going to hold up during the bad times causing mass layoffs and near billion dollar losses for NJ. The union would never consider an adjustment to the contract to match the shrinking economy.

It's a champaign contract that can only afford beer but forces champaign to be served even if it's unaffordable.

THAT is the unions fault, not the economy.

While the rest of the company has been suffering give backs and furloughs, the top seniority list pilots are still paid at the highest wage possible and getting rich off the contract.

You think that's right. I don't. The "pain" should be spread evenly, and the contract should be structured to avoid layoffs to the maximum extent possible.

 

[brokeflyer]

Broke, I've never blamed the pilots on these boards, but I do blame misrepresentation of what a union can do and how they portray in to the average line pilot.

You can't tell me as a former CP you didn't go through a grievance process where a pilot kept his job that should have been driving a dump truck instead of an airplane. It happens all the time. We both know that.

you sure got that right.

 

[wacoflyr]

They don't promise? Every pilot on these boards, (dimeline being one of them) thinks that the protections offered by the contract will be the end all to the evils of life.

Quite the generalization there. It calls into question your comprehension of other's writings. Many of us work without contracts, are happy that way, and have expressed the fact on "these boards." What else do you make up?

 

[RCR5]

Sorry to read about the next round of layoffs fellas. That sucks big time and my sincere condolances to those it has affected.

I also believe B-19 was right. Fire away!

Hopefully this debate can be put to rest now.

 

[AeroBoy]

Hopefully this debate can be put to rest now.

Ever think about going into comedy? That's funny right there, I don't care who you are...