midwest/frontier going to become 1 airline

[likeitis]

I'm trying to (still) figure out why you're mad at just the RAH pilots. As best as I can tell, all parties needed to agree to a timeline. Sounds like YX wanted it done faster (understandably) than the other 3 groups. The RAH MEC isn't running this show so I'm not sure why it's all their fault.

Because you are the only ones saying that all the parties agreed to something that wasn't the case. I haven't seen FAPA or even LYNX people spouting such nonsense. BTW there are 5 groups.

Frontier and Lynx aren't gaining anything at the expense of other people by delaying. RAH pilots are. All the recalls at F9 are because of the 3 new F9 aircraft coming online. So yes I blame the RAH pilots.

 

[Flying Illini]

Because you are the only ones saying that all the parties agreed to something that wasn't the case. I haven't seen FAPA or even LYNX people spouting such nonsense. BTW there are 5 groups.

Frontier and Lynx aren't gaining anything at the expense of other people by delaying. RAH pilots are. All the recalls at F9 are because of the 3 new F9 aircraft coming online. So yes I blame the RAH pilots.

As usual, pilots are left to clean up the mess created by management. At some point pilots will stop taking out their anger on fellow pilots. I hope I get to see that day during my career.


Who is the fifth group being integrated? Lynx, F9, YX, RAH.

 

[likeitis]

As usual, pilots are left to clean up the mess created by management. At some point pilots will stop taking out their anger on fellow pilots. I hope I get to see that day during my career.


Who is the fifth group being integrated? Lynx, F9, YX, RAH.

RAH management.

 

[AnimalTale]

I'm trying to (still) figure out why you're mad at just the RAH pilots.

Nothing personal but I'll explain, you are very smart and should understand:

1) You guys are flying aircraft that say MIDWEST on them except you arent MIDWEST and you dont get paid MIDWEST salaries: actually you get paid almost half of what the MIDWEST pilots got paid. Because of this unequal pay scenario, The "real" MIDWEST pilots are NOW unemployed.

2) You guys are flying E190 aircraft, in my opinion, a mainline aircraft. EXCEPT You arent even close to the pay scale that should go with that aircraft.

I understand you are doing what your UNION is telling you and you arent crossing any lines. I also understand Heller and BB are "kinda" whipsawing you and making the RAH pilots take the blame with their actions. So most of the blame is in the name of "BUSINESS". And right now, RAH mngmt is taking care of Business with what is available and a very co-operative labor group.

You can not fault anyone for blaming RAH and being angry at your UNION. People have lost their jobs (MIDWEST) and growth abilities (DEN F9) because there is an availability of LOW LABOR PILOTS (RAH) on a MAINLINE AIRCRAFT (E190). MNGMT has the upperhand now, that is fine.

I expect RAH guys to grow some COURAGE and DEMAND what is right:

1) PAY and Benefits for aircraft operated.
2) Pay and Benefits for the outstanding professional group you have.
3) AND to take care of the MIDWEST PILOTS, especially the junior ones who got screwed by their senior pilots.

Lets make it work.

CYA

 

[likeitis]

As usual, pilots are left to clean up the mess created by management. At some point pilots will stop taking out their anger on fellow pilots. I hope I get to see that day during my career.


Who is the fifth group being integrated? Lynx, F9, YX, RAH.

I think history shows that the way to overcome obstacles like this is when party who has gained puts out the hand to lift the downtrodden party up the ladder. What has happen here is that the party who has gained not only have they left their hands in their pockets but they have kicked away the ladder after reaching the top.

Another way would be to join together to fight management but by all evidence your EXCO is either woefully incompetent, in bed with BB or immoral.

 

[flying zephyr]

I wish that Animaltale had some say in what was going to happen. We all know that many pilots including greedy bassstards that work or worked at RAH, F9, and Midwest all only care about one thing: themselves. Most of these guys shouldn't even have an ATP(an airline transport pilot must be of upstanding moral character). I have had the extreme privilege of working with some of the best flight crews in the business, many genuinely caring about the job they did, but I saw the other side too and what is going on right now would make anyone of even the strongest constitution queasy. What have we become when we are climbing on the backs of carcasses that aren't even cold yet.

Yes Midwest pilots got screwed, yes rah pilots have an old bad contract, yes, anyone at Lynx had to see the writing on the wall as did F9 mngment. But the real point here is that no one is trying to rectify the problem and go after this in a unified way. I have seen utterly deplorable behavior by rah pilots and they know who they are. Young, cocky, entitlement ridden fools that think that because their mngmnt fleeced Midwest and MKE that it can't happen to them. I am saddened by the whole process.

I still wish all of you the best, NOT a BB statement, but God bless us all, we'll need it, especially if we all don't realize that we need to be unified for any of us to succeed. Otherwise I expect that RAH will eventually meet the same fate as MEH.

Good luck to all, fly safe and maybe someday we will unify.

 

[AnimalTale]

I wish that Animaltale had some say in what was going to happen. We all know that many pilots including greedy bassstards that work or worked at RAH, F9, and Midwest all only care about one thing: themselves. Most of these guys shouldn't even have an ATP(an airline transport pilot must be of upstanding moral character). I have had the extreme privilege of working with some of the best flight crews in the business, many genuinely caring about the job they did, but I saw the other side too and what is going on right now would make anyone of even the strongest constitution queasy. What have we become when we are climbing on the backs of carcasses that aren't even cold yet.

Yes Midwest pilots got screwed, yes rah pilots have an old bad contract, yes, anyone at Lynx had to see the writing on the wall as did F9 mngment. But the real point here is that no one is trying to rectify the problem and go after this in a unified way. I have seen utterly deplorable behavior by rah pilots and they know who they are. Young, cocky, entitlement ridden fools that think that because their mngmnt fleeced Midwest and MKE that it can't happen to them. I am saddened by the whole process.

I still wish all of you the best, NOT a BB statement, but God bless us all, we'll need it, especially if we all don't realize that we need to be unified for any of us to succeed. Otherwise I expect that RAH will eventually meet the same fate as MEH.

Good luck to all, fly safe and maybe someday we will unify.

The Truth. Nice Post.

CYA

 

[ricj41]

Lets say that the sli is complete in early summer if it stays on schedule. Does anyone know how the midwest pilots would be brought back to the line and under what contract they would fly. When a new plane arrives and they can hold seats on it under what contract do they do trainning and so on. Anyone have any ideas. This is why it will be real important to get a single contract once we have a single pilot list.

 

[Flying Illini]

Nothing personal but I'll explain, you are very smart and should understand:

1) You guys are flying aircraft that say MIDWEST on them except you arent MIDWEST and you dont get paid MIDWEST salaries: actually you get paid almost half of what the MIDWEST pilots got paid. Because of this unequal pay scenario, The "real" MIDWEST pilots are NOW unemployed.

2) You guys are flying E190 aircraft, in my opinion, a mainline aircraft. EXCEPT You arent even close to the pay scale that should go with that aircraft.

I understand you are doing what your UNION is telling you and you arent crossing any lines. I also understand Heller and BB are "kinda" whipsawing you and making the RAH pilots take the blame with their actions. So most of the blame is in the name of "BUSINESS". And right now, RAH mngmt is taking care of Business with what is available and a very co-operative labor group.

You can not fault anyone for blaming RAH and being angry at your UNION. People have lost their jobs (MIDWEST) and growth abilities (DEN F9) because there is an availability of LOW LABOR PILOTS (RAH) on a MAINLINE AIRCRAFT (E190). MNGMT has the upperhand now, that is fine.

I expect RAH guys to grow some COURAGE and DEMAND what is right:

1) PAY and Benefits for aircraft operated.
2) Pay and Benefits for the outstanding professional group you have.
3) AND to take care of the MIDWEST PILOTS, especially the junior ones who got screwed by their senior pilots.

Lets make it work.

CYA

See, now what you said makes sense to me. I guess I was viewing things from a different perspective. We (native RAH) didn't do this to you (YX,F9,Lynx). Our collective mgmt groups did.

At the end of the day, I think what transpired was bad for everyone, including the native RAH pilot group and especially bad for the FO's like myself. See, we were hired at a regional where we expected to bide our time, take our upgrade as CA's moved on, and then move on ourselves. In our wake the regional life-cycle continues. Hire on, low FO pay, low CA pay, get hired at a "real" airline. That's all been upset. We were hired on but all of a sudden, CA's are no longer "moving on." Many have decided to hang-out b/c why go to the bottom of another seniority list when the airbus and 190 that you could be flying there have come to you and your current seniority list. While you won't fly the airbus for at least 5 years and probably closer to 10+, at least it's now a possibility and you don't have to give up seniority/pay. That leaves the FO's stuck at a job that went from a regional upgrade timeframe to a national/LCC upgrade timeframe...but we're still stuck with the BS pay and workrules that come at a regional. We're all very, VERY aware that that has to change with this upcoming contract which is why we are all preparing for the inevitable need to strike (my strike fund is growing daily and I hope that's the case for everyone).

I truly feel bad for the YX FO's who will likely come over as FO's but at a far lower pay scale than what they left. Sure, it's a paycheck, but it's a bad paycheck to be doing the same thing you were doing last year. That's business and while I didn't do it to you and neither did any native RAH pilot, at least I understand the rawness of that deal. Meanwhile the masterminds behind it all sit around happy as could be that the pilots are at each others' throats. Divide and conquer.

 

[starchkr]

See, now what you said makes sense to me. I guess I was viewing things from a different perspective. We (native RAH) didn't do this to you (YX,F9,Lynx). Our collective mgmt groups did.

At the end of the day, I think what transpired was bad for everyone, including the native RAH pilot group and especially bad for the FO's like myself. See, we were hired at a regional where we expected to bide our time, take our upgrade as CA's moved on, and then move on ourselves. In our wake the regional life-cycle continues. Hire on, low FO pay, low CA pay, get hired at a "real" airline. That's all been upset. We were hired on but all of a sudden, CA's are no longer "moving on." Many have decided to hang-out b/c why go to the bottom of another seniority list when the airbus and 190 that you could be flying there have come to you and your current seniority list. While you won't fly the airbus for at least 5 years and probably closer to 10+, at least it's now a possibility and you don't have to give up seniority/pay. That leaves the FO's stuck at a job that went from a regional upgrade timeframe to a national/LCC upgrade timeframe...but we're still stuck with the BS pay and workrules that come at a regional. We're all very, VERY aware that that has to change with this upcoming contract which is why we are all preparing for the inevitable need to strike (my strike fund is growing daily and I hope that's the case for everyone).

I truly feel bad for the YX FO's who will likely come over as FO's but at a far lower pay scale than what they left. Sure, it's a paycheck, but it's a bad paycheck to be doing the same thing you were doing last year. That's business and while I didn't do it to you and neither did any native RAH pilot, at least I understand the rawness of that deal. Meanwhile the masterminds behind it all sit around happy as could be that the pilots are at each others' throats. Divide and conquer.

This is why I dont like the idea of any RAH pilot going above any F9 pilot during SLI. You knew what your expectations were going into the regional, and now "some" of you are expecting a quick and easy jump over into the bus without taking the hit that the rest of us took when we "moved on" to another carrier.

 

[707eng]

Their entitlement is amazing. I believe the captains at Republic will in for a shock, after integration. The few Republic FO’s I’ve meet seem to be looking for something better. They went to Republic knowing it was nothing more than a stepping stone.

 

[chqflyer]

No matter how the SLI works out, it will be tied up in court for years like the US/AWA deal. Once the dust settles, how about a permanent fence on the Airbuses until all current F9 pilots hold a captain seat? Then start allowing current RAH pilots to interview for available FO slots on the bus. It really seems like the only fair way to go without the massive windfall for RAH pilots.

 

[Bluestreak]

No matter how the SLI works out, it will be tied up in court for years like the US/AWA deal. Once the dust settles, how about a permanent fence on the Airbuses until all current F9 pilots hold a captain seat? Then start allowing current RAH pilots to interview for available FO slots on the bus. It really seems like the only fair way to go without the massive windfall for RAH pilots.

Hey,how about CHQ pilots interview for RW 170 slots ,hmmm ? Oh,and if F9 has furloughs,you go straight to the street-no displacing a CHQ/RW/S5 guy-isn't that how one list works ? If the Airbus goes bye-bye,so do the crews,is that what you want ? They can interview for a CHQ 145 F/O slot.It's only fair,right ? I can't work there,you can't work here.Only fair,hmm ?

 

[chqflyer]

Hey,how about CHQ pilots interview for RW 170 slots ,hmmm ? Oh,and if F9 has furloughs,you go straight to the street-no displacing a CHQ/RW/S5 guy-isn't that how one list works ? If the Airbus goes bye-bye,so do the crews,is that what you want ? They can interview for a CHQ 145 F/O slot.It's only fair,right ? I can't work there,you can't work here.Only fair,hmm ?

Whoa there guy, I'm an RAH pilot, not an F9 pilot. I just don't feel entitled to jump into an airbus no matter how the sli shakes out. No matter how you look at it, RAH is and always will be a regional airline. That is the corporate culture here and it will never change. To try and force our culture onto a real airline will simply not work. So I think the single list with fences is probably the most apropriate way to go. Just my opinion, it has about the same value as the dog-log I stepped on this morning.

 

[OpenClimb]

Hey,how about CHQ pilots interview for RW 170 slots ,hmmm ? Oh,and if F9 has furloughs,you go straight to the street-no displacing a CHQ/RW/S5 guy-isn't that how one list works ? If the Airbus goes bye-bye,so do the crews,is that what you want ? They can interview for a CHQ 145 F/O slot.It's only fair,right ? I can't work there,you can't work here.Only fair,hmm ?

I can't speak for anyone but myself. As a point of reference, I'll say that I'm an F9 FO with about 6 years seniority at F9.

I'd be great with what you've described above. I have no desire to fly under the RAH work rules or pay rates. If the F9 Airbus go away, I'm perfectly happy fending for myself in finding alternate employment.

If what you've described is what Republic pilots are looking for, then you've got my vote.

 

[YetAnother]

If the F9 Airbus go away, I'm perfectly happy fending for myself in finding alternate employment.

I doubt the Midwest guys feel the same way.

 

[Wesb737fo]

No dog in this fight, but, under what scenario would you see the F9 bus go away. It's the only a/c in the RAH " Branded " flying that has a competitive cost structure with SWA and AAI. Unless someone is lying about the numbers they published in their SEC filings.

 

[YetAnother]

Here is a cut and paste of a remark from Some Guy on All Things F9:

According to Republic, most of the Airbus leases expire between 2013-2017, so they have at least three more years (3 are on longer leases).

It would make no sense for Bedford to replace Frontier's aircraft with smaller E190s, and Embraer doesn't have anything bigger. He told industry analysts in December that Republic would refleet the Airbuses either with new Airbuses, Boeing 737-700/800s, or Bombardier CS300s, and that the announcement would come this quarter. But maybe you are right. Maybe Bedford lied.

Regardless of whether any of it is factual, it does allow one to understand the importance of a single seniority list with no fences. IF BB decided to refleet the Airbuses, who's to say he wouldn't put the new aircraft on a different certificate with 'Frontier' colors? New airplanes, cheaper crews.

The best way to protect against that is to enforce a single seniority list, no fences, and hope the arbitrator gives everyone a fair shakeout. If F9 pilots were fenced out of the rest of RAH, the single seniority list would mean nothing (At the very least it provides job security for F9 pilots in the event of furlough/fleet reduction). Without a single seniority list with no fences, there would be no motivation for BB to keep the branded flying at F9 (why pay a senior F9er to fly something he can put with an underpaid RAH employee in F9 colors?). It's already happened at YX. And now YXers will be flying RAH aircraft at RAH wages. The same thing could happen to F9ers.

All the employees that comprise what is now RAH (F9/YX/+) need to work together to improve the wages and work rules there across the board. If F9 and YX worked with their new RAH brothers and sisters (you may not like them but it looks like they're now family), they could collectively improve pay on ALL of the airframes. This would result in livable wages for everyone on the list, and a form of pay/job protection for anyone who could be downgraded from the Airbus in the future; whether that came from fleet reduction/transition, furloughed F9 guys and gals being recalled with no Airbus available in the bid, etc.

Everyone needs to check their egos at the door, and work together as one team to improve pay and QOL at the reverend's expense. One large unified pilot group is going to be MUCH better than a bunch of small, whining, bickering pilot groups that fight with each other over the same piece of pie instead of demanding a larger portion of the pie TOGETHER.

The way I see it? F9 people are worried about maintaining the status quo - at their peril. YX people are appropriately bitter about their situation, but the SLI will eventually happen and they will have jobs. Having a job won't mean anything though, unless the pay is better on all the airframes (so everyone has a livable wage regardless of where they fall on the seniority list after arbitration). 'Original' RAH guys are trying to improve their pay and quality of life. Right now they look at the Frontier pay/lifestyle and want the same. Work to get it for them on their current airframes and they will be content flying what they already are.. and for that matter, F9ers and YXers might not mind flying a 190 (especially if it means being based closer to home). But only IF the pay is good across the board.

OR none of this matters and Southwest and AirTran will eat you alive. If the pay doesn't improve at RAH with their next contract, I hope they do. Maybe it will open up some decent paying pilot positions at Southwest.

 

[ricj41]

Two things.
First you are assuming that the fence language that fapa is asking for would encompasse only 3 specific airplanes. The airbus 318, 319 and 320. Why are you assuming that? Our current scope language was changed to allow republic pilots to fly the e190s. It was also changed to include the 737, 321, 757 and any other aircraft along those weights to be flown by frontier pilots on the frontier airlines seniority list. The fence language would include those a/c along with any future airplanes above a certain takeoff weight.
Secondly, You are assuming that because certain a/c are fenced off for only frontier pilots that they would thus be excluded from flying other aircraft. Were is your evidence for that. Not that I feel I should get a captain seat on a 190.
IF BB wants to get rid off all of the airbuses and similar sized aircraft to try and get around a future fence so that he can pay pilots less is stupid. An all 190 fleet airline would be doomed for failure and he knows that. I wouldn't be surprised to see an anoucement for more airbusses in the coming months. If the airbus fleet doesn't grow then both frontier and midwest will fail. Along with BB. No doubt he would be fired if his huge gamble doesn't pay off.

 

[ultrarunner]

What is the status of the SLI. Are talks even going on between the groups at all?