midwest/frontier going to become 1 airline

[Flying Illini]

So like everyone keeps saying to the YX guys, "Why don't you just strike?"

Hint: It's a rhetorical question.

Rhetorical maybe, but I see what you're saying. However, an illegal job action when your company is selling out and tossing you out on the street vs an illegal job action when your company is still solvent are two very different things. Every airline has issues with mgmt, that's why we have the grievance process. The process sucks but it is what it is and there's a time and place for standing your ground rather than going through the time-consuming legal channels. In the case of the YX guys, there really would have been no consequence for an illegal work-stoppage since they were already losing their jobs.

 

[dougdrvr]

Rhetorical maybe, but I see what you're saying. However, an illegal job action when your company is selling out and tossing you out on the street vs an illegal job action when your company is still solvent are two very different things. Every airline has issues with mgmt, that's why we have the grievance process. The process sucks but it is what it is and there's a time and place for standing your ground rather than going through the time-consuming legal channels. In the case of the YX guys, there really would have been no consequence for an illegal work-stoppage since they were already losing their jobs.

Well...there would be the slight matter of losing 90+ weeks of unemployment. (which comes out to more than RAH FO pay, when tax time comes around)

 

[likeitis]

Well, yeah. That's not surprising at all. How many pilots at ANY company are happy with a 6.5yr old contract? No one here. Oh, and we didn't do ANYTHING in 2003 to impress you. At the time, as was mentioned before, RAH wasn't even a twinkle in CHQ's eye and the 2003 contract was a reflection of that. Who would have thought that we needed a contract to address the issues that we face today? Not you, not me, not anybody.

Not correct. Republic was in the works at that time. They even brought a 170 to Indy to look at. I saw it on the ramp. I saw this coming and voiced myself with the union at the time. I also voted no on the contract and when it passed I resigned my position.

 

[CitationLover]

I absolutely agree. Just remember, your beef is with YX mgmt and RAH management, not the pilots.

Oh, and as for the "deferred seat" in the 190's. That's a very sore subject between the pilots and the MEC. We're all pissed about it. I don't know how we can lose the grievance but if there's a way, the IBT will find it.

My beef is with the pilots too. They continue this nonsense and they continue to stall at the SLI talks thus causing the maximum number of MEH pilots to probably be stapled. That has NOTHING to do with YX or RAH mgmt, but rather the IBT idiots who also allowed our payrates to expire, those payrates that pay 50-75% more than what you have.

 

[trainer8]

My beef is with the pilots too. They continue this nonsense and they continue to stall at the SLI talks thus causing the maximum number of MEH pilots to probably be stapled. That has NOTHING to do with YX or RAH mgmt, but rather the IBT idiots who also allowed our payrates to expire, those payrates that pay 50-75% more than what you have.

SLI talks continue as scheduled with all parties participating, including a signed agreement. No stalling that I am aware of.

 

[Flying Illini]

Well...there would be the slight matter of losing 90+ weeks of unemployment. (which comes out to more than RAH FO pay, when tax time comes around)

Good point.

 

[Flying Illini]

My beef is with the pilots too. They continue this nonsense and they continue to stall at the SLI talks thus causing the maximum number of MEH pilots to probably be stapled. That has NOTHING to do with YX or RAH mgmt, but rather the IBT idiots who also allowed our payrates to expire, those payrates that pay 50-75% more than what you have.

Talks are proceeding according to the time frame agreed upon by all parties (RAH, Lynx, F9 and YX). What stalling are you referring to?

As far as "causing the maximum number of MEH pilot to probably be stapled" I will disagree. There was a date that was agreed upon that will be used for the purposes of the SLI. I don't remember the date but if you weren't on furlough at the time, then you were active and will be integrated as such.

Lastly, yes we all know that an LCC such as YX has better payrates than a regional. That's how it's always worked. We are in the process of negotiating our first contract now that we are "more than a regional." Get upset if it passes and includes regional rates for all the certificates/aircraft.

 

[likeitis]

Talks are proceeding according to the time frame agreed upon by all parties (RAH, Lynx, F9 and YX). What stalling are you referring to?

As far as "causing the maximum number of MEH pilot to probably be stapled" I will disagree. There was a date that was agreed upon that will be used for the purposes of the SLI. I don't remember the date but if you weren't on furlough at the time, then you were active and will be integrated as such.

How much control of a timeline do think you have if you are the only member in five who doesn't want to stall?

There wasn't any agreed upon date. The arbitrator in the outsourcing grievance stated that 137 pilots would be considered active. Does the SLI arbitrator need to follow this? No. Can the arbitrator use another date if he/she finds manipulation by buttford? Of course.

 

[Flying Illini]

How much control of a timeline do think you have if you are the only member in five who doesn't want to stall?

There wasn't any agreed upon date. The arbitrator in the outsourcing grievance stated that 137 pilots would be considered active. Does the SLI arbitrator need to follow this? No. Can the arbitrator use another date if he/she finds manipulation by buttford? Of course.

Very little control of the timeline. All parties have to agree to said timeline. I still don't know why your beef is with all the pilots though.

I'm not sure about your outsourcing grievance. What I do know is that our MEC told us with regard to our furloughs that there would be a specific date set to determine who is considered active and who is on furlough for the purposes of integration and that this date would apply across all certificates. Obviously we have called back some of our furloughs but for the purpose of this SLI, they will be considered furloughed.

 

[likeitis]

Very little control of the timeline. All parties have to agree to said timeline. I still don't know why your beef is with all the pilots though.

It would be one thing if all parties were employed and there wasn't what looks like a cut off of new positions post June 1. With what we all know of buttford's business plan it looks like if you aren't on the property by the end of May you may be SOL for a long time. Many of the Midwest pilots after the SLI is complete will be senior to pilots flying now but won't be able to take their rightful positions until buttford allows it and we all know he will wait until the very last minute to recall any of the experienced YX pilots.

He has went out of his way to make the Midwest pilots lives hell. He's taken away our promised pass rights. Many of our pilots have had to resign because RAH won't allow us to rollover or take a hardship on our retirements accounts unless we resign. Our pension is still up in the air. We still haven't been able to meet with the company to get any of the basic questions answered. Changing over to your medical plan has been a nightmare. Trying to get anyone in your company to answer the phone or return phone calls is next to impossible. I don't think it's any stretch of the imagination to see that he is doing everything in his power to dwindle the YX pilots numbers as fast as possible. I think he knows that he has a far better chance of pushing through another subpar contract with as many of the Midwest pilots off the list as possible.

 

[airplane wizard]

Bottom Feeder Express

 

[CitationLover]

It would be one thing if all parties were employed and there wasn't what looks like a cut off of new positions post June 1. With what we all know of buttford's business plan it looks like if you aren't on the property by the end of May you may be SOL for a long time. Many of the Midwest pilots after the SLI is complete will be senior to pilots flying now but won't be able to take their rightful positions until buttford allows it and we all know he will wait until the very last minute to recall any of the experienced YX pilots.

He has went out of his way to make the Midwest pilots lives hell. He's taken away our promised pass rights. Many of our pilots have had to resign because RAH won't allow us to rollover or take a hardship on our retirements accounts unless we resign. Our pension is still up in the air. We still haven't been able to meet with the company to get any of the basic questions answered. Changing over to your medical plan has been a nightmare. Trying to get anyone in your company to answer the phone or return phone calls is next to impossible. I don't think it's any stretch of the imagination to see that he is doing everything in his power to dwindle the YX pilots numbers as fast as possible. I think he knows that he has a far better chance of pushing through another subpar contract with as many of the Midwest pilots off the list as possible.

Jesus loves you likeitis!

Halleleuiah!

 

[Flying Illini]

It would be one thing if all parties were employed and there wasn't what looks like a cut off of new positions post June 1. With what we all know of buttford's business plan it looks like if you aren't on the property by the end of May you may be SOL for a long time. Many of the Midwest pilots after the SLI is complete will be senior to pilots flying now but won't be able to take their rightful positions until buttford allows it and we all know he will wait until the very last minute to recall any of the experienced YX pilots.

He has went out of his way to make the Midwest pilots lives hell. He's taken away our promised pass rights. Many of our pilots have had to resign because RAH won't allow us to rollover or take a hardship on our retirements accounts unless we resign. Our pension is still up in the air. We still haven't been able to meet with the company to get any of the basic questions answered. Changing over to your medical plan has been a nightmare. Trying to get anyone in your company to answer the phone or return phone calls is next to impossible. I don't think it's any stretch of the imagination to see that he is doing everything in his power to dwindle the YX pilots numbers as fast as possible. I think he knows that he has a far better chance of pushing through another subpar contract with as many of the Midwest pilots off the list as possible.

I'm not surprised that this stuff is happening. But per your post, it's all coming from RAH management, not the pilots. And admittedly, with the confidentiality agreements signed by all parties of the SLI, it's been very difficult to get any good info concerning cut-off dates and the like.

Good luck getting phone calls answered or returned. You have a better shot with email...but only slightly better. This is the stuff we live with on a daily basis, which is why most of us are looking to get in, get our time, and get out.

As for the bold print part (emphasis mine), he probably hopes this is the case but he has another thing coming. Believe me, the native RAH pilot group would love to have as many native YX pilots here as possible, especially when it comes time to turn the screws.

 

[Jetjockey]

The longer someone has been furloughed, the better the chances that he will find a new job. Bedford is counting on it. The RP MEC knows this too.

 

[likeitis]

I'm not surprised that this stuff is happening. But per your post, it's all coming from RAH management, not the pilots. And admittedly, with the confidentiality agreements signed by all parties of the SLI, it's been very difficult to get any good info concerning cut-off dates and the like.

Good luck getting phone calls answered or returned. You have a better shot with email...but only slightly better. This is the stuff we live with on a daily basis, which is why most of us are looking to get in, get our time, and get out.

As for the bold print part (emphasis mine), he probably hopes this is the case but he has another thing coming. Believe me, the native RAH pilot group would love to have as many native YX pilots here as possible, especially when it comes time to turn the screws.

But it is the pilots dragging their feet. If you would have demanded a expedited timeline of 2-3 months, like our MEC favored, their would be a chance that some Midwest pilots would be able to get into these new planes. But you pushed for a timeframe that conveniently ends after the last aircraft arrives. Under normal circumstance I have no problem with your MEC's actions on the SLI but with people losing their houses, cars, etc, it just is plain immoral. Especially if you are a person who ends up with 1500+ people below you who are flying your companies old routes in aircraft with your companies name on it, while you sit collecting gov't cheese.

 

[Megalops]

Hey RAH IBC, take a look at how Fapa stood firm on opening MKE base. Opening postponed, why? We have a contract. We expect it to be followed.

 

[Flying Illini]

But it is the pilots dragging their feet. If you would have demanded a expedited timeline of 2-3 months, like our MEC favored, their would be a chance that some Midwest pilots would be able to get into these new planes. But you pushed for a timeframe that conveniently ends after the last aircraft arrives. Under normal circumstance I have no problem with your MEC's actions on the SLI but with people losing their houses, cars, etc, it just is plain immoral. Especially if you are a person who ends up with 1500+ people below you who are flying your companies old routes in aircraft with your companies name on it, while you sit collecting gov't cheese.

So you're upset with the pilots at Lynx, F9 and RAH?

We all wanted this SLI completed as quickly as possible. Our Integration committee told us that the timeline that they posted was agreed to by all parties and this was the best-case timeline. We all wanted it done before May but we were told that this is what was agreed to.

 

[Flying Illini]

Hey RAH IBC, take a look at how Fapa stood firm on opening MKE base. Opening postponed, why? We have a contract. We expect it to be followed.

Was your contract written gray areas and loopholes by an individual who has been accused of stealing from the IBT and since removed from office? Was your contract written by an individual who has done so much financial damage to the Local 747 that it has been in trusteeship and is now being combined with a different local b/c there is nothing that can be salvaged?

I'm sure the guys that voted for our 2003 contract thought they were getting a fair REGIONAL contract. Turns out, it was incredibly poorly written and not only that, but the company flat-out refuses to honor the spirit of the contract.

Lessons learned, lessons learned.

 

[likeitis]

So you're upset with the pilots at Lynx, F9 and RAH?

We all wanted this SLI completed as quickly as possible. Our Integration committee told us that the timeline that they posted was agreed to by all parties and this was the best-case timeline. We all wanted it done before May but we were told that this is what was agreed to.

Why don't you get it? Agreed to because if the YX MEC didn't agree to it then it would be on hold indefinitely. By your EXCO saying all parties agreed to it is disingenuous at best.

 

[Flying Illini]

Why don't you get it? Agreed to because if the YX MEC didn't agree to it then it would be on hold indefinitely. By your EXCO saying all parties agreed to it is disingenuous at best.

I'm trying to (still) figure out why you're mad at just the RAH pilots. As best as I can tell, all parties needed to agree to a timeline. Sounds like YX wanted it done faster (understandably) than the other 3 groups. The RAH MEC isn't running this show so I'm not sure why it's all their fault.

 

[likeitis]

I'm trying to (still) figure out why you're mad at just the RAH pilots. As best as I can tell, all parties needed to agree to a timeline. Sounds like YX wanted it done faster (understandably) than the other 3 groups. The RAH MEC isn't running this show so I'm not sure why it's all their fault.

Because you are the only ones saying that all the parties agreed to something that wasn't the case. I haven't seen FAPA or even LYNX people spouting such nonsense. BTW there are 5 groups.

Frontier and Lynx aren't gaining anything at the expense of other people by delaying. RAH pilots are. All the recalls at F9 are because of the 3 new F9 aircraft coming online. So yes I blame the RAH pilots.

 

[Flying Illini]

Because you are the only ones saying that all the parties agreed to something that wasn't the case. I haven't seen FAPA or even LYNX people spouting such nonsense. BTW there are 5 groups.

Frontier and Lynx aren't gaining anything at the expense of other people by delaying. RAH pilots are. All the recalls at F9 are because of the 3 new F9 aircraft coming online. So yes I blame the RAH pilots.

As usual, pilots are left to clean up the mess created by management. At some point pilots will stop taking out their anger on fellow pilots. I hope I get to see that day during my career.


Who is the fifth group being integrated? Lynx, F9, YX, RAH.

 

[likeitis]

As usual, pilots are left to clean up the mess created by management. At some point pilots will stop taking out their anger on fellow pilots. I hope I get to see that day during my career.


Who is the fifth group being integrated? Lynx, F9, YX, RAH.

RAH management.

 

[AnimalTale]

I'm trying to (still) figure out why you're mad at just the RAH pilots.

Nothing personal but I'll explain, you are very smart and should understand:

1) You guys are flying aircraft that say MIDWEST on them except you arent MIDWEST and you dont get paid MIDWEST salaries: actually you get paid almost half of what the MIDWEST pilots got paid. Because of this unequal pay scenario, The "real" MIDWEST pilots are NOW unemployed.

2) You guys are flying E190 aircraft, in my opinion, a mainline aircraft. EXCEPT You arent even close to the pay scale that should go with that aircraft.

I understand you are doing what your UNION is telling you and you arent crossing any lines. I also understand Heller and BB are "kinda" whipsawing you and making the RAH pilots take the blame with their actions. So most of the blame is in the name of "BUSINESS". And right now, RAH mngmt is taking care of Business with what is available and a very co-operative labor group.

You can not fault anyone for blaming RAH and being angry at your UNION. People have lost their jobs (MIDWEST) and growth abilities (DEN F9) because there is an availability of LOW LABOR PILOTS (RAH) on a MAINLINE AIRCRAFT (E190). MNGMT has the upperhand now, that is fine.

I expect RAH guys to grow some COURAGE and DEMAND what is right:

1) PAY and Benefits for aircraft operated.
2) Pay and Benefits for the outstanding professional group you have.
3) AND to take care of the MIDWEST PILOTS, especially the junior ones who got screwed by their senior pilots.

Lets make it work.

CYA

 

[likeitis]

As usual, pilots are left to clean up the mess created by management. At some point pilots will stop taking out their anger on fellow pilots. I hope I get to see that day during my career.


Who is the fifth group being integrated? Lynx, F9, YX, RAH.

I think history shows that the way to overcome obstacles like this is when party who has gained puts out the hand to lift the downtrodden party up the ladder. What has happen here is that the party who has gained not only have they left their hands in their pockets but they have kicked away the ladder after reaching the top.

Another way would be to join together to fight management but by all evidence your EXCO is either woefully incompetent, in bed with BB or immoral.

 

[flying zephyr]

I wish that Animaltale had some say in what was going to happen. We all know that many pilots including greedy bassstards that work or worked at RAH, F9, and Midwest all only care about one thing: themselves. Most of these guys shouldn't even have an ATP(an airline transport pilot must be of upstanding moral character). I have had the extreme privilege of working with some of the best flight crews in the business, many genuinely caring about the job they did, but I saw the other side too and what is going on right now would make anyone of even the strongest constitution queasy. What have we become when we are climbing on the backs of carcasses that aren't even cold yet.

Yes Midwest pilots got screwed, yes rah pilots have an old bad contract, yes, anyone at Lynx had to see the writing on the wall as did F9 mngment. But the real point here is that no one is trying to rectify the problem and go after this in a unified way. I have seen utterly deplorable behavior by rah pilots and they know who they are. Young, cocky, entitlement ridden fools that think that because their mngmnt fleeced Midwest and MKE that it can't happen to them. I am saddened by the whole process.

I still wish all of you the best, NOT a BB statement, but God bless us all, we'll need it, especially if we all don't realize that we need to be unified for any of us to succeed. Otherwise I expect that RAH will eventually meet the same fate as MEH.

Good luck to all, fly safe and maybe someday we will unify.

 

[AnimalTale]

I wish that Animaltale had some say in what was going to happen. We all know that many pilots including greedy bassstards that work or worked at RAH, F9, and Midwest all only care about one thing: themselves. Most of these guys shouldn't even have an ATP(an airline transport pilot must be of upstanding moral character). I have had the extreme privilege of working with some of the best flight crews in the business, many genuinely caring about the job they did, but I saw the other side too and what is going on right now would make anyone of even the strongest constitution queasy. What have we become when we are climbing on the backs of carcasses that aren't even cold yet.

Yes Midwest pilots got screwed, yes rah pilots have an old bad contract, yes, anyone at Lynx had to see the writing on the wall as did F9 mngment. But the real point here is that no one is trying to rectify the problem and go after this in a unified way. I have seen utterly deplorable behavior by rah pilots and they know who they are. Young, cocky, entitlement ridden fools that think that because their mngmnt fleeced Midwest and MKE that it can't happen to them. I am saddened by the whole process.

I still wish all of you the best, NOT a BB statement, but God bless us all, we'll need it, especially if we all don't realize that we need to be unified for any of us to succeed. Otherwise I expect that RAH will eventually meet the same fate as MEH.

Good luck to all, fly safe and maybe someday we will unify.

The Truth. Nice Post.

CYA

 

[ricj41]

Lets say that the sli is complete in early summer if it stays on schedule. Does anyone know how the midwest pilots would be brought back to the line and under what contract they would fly. When a new plane arrives and they can hold seats on it under what contract do they do trainning and so on. Anyone have any ideas. This is why it will be real important to get a single contract once we have a single pilot list.

 

[Flying Illini]

Nothing personal but I'll explain, you are very smart and should understand:

1) You guys are flying aircraft that say MIDWEST on them except you arent MIDWEST and you dont get paid MIDWEST salaries: actually you get paid almost half of what the MIDWEST pilots got paid. Because of this unequal pay scenario, The "real" MIDWEST pilots are NOW unemployed.

2) You guys are flying E190 aircraft, in my opinion, a mainline aircraft. EXCEPT You arent even close to the pay scale that should go with that aircraft.

I understand you are doing what your UNION is telling you and you arent crossing any lines. I also understand Heller and BB are "kinda" whipsawing you and making the RAH pilots take the blame with their actions. So most of the blame is in the name of "BUSINESS". And right now, RAH mngmt is taking care of Business with what is available and a very co-operative labor group.

You can not fault anyone for blaming RAH and being angry at your UNION. People have lost their jobs (MIDWEST) and growth abilities (DEN F9) because there is an availability of LOW LABOR PILOTS (RAH) on a MAINLINE AIRCRAFT (E190). MNGMT has the upperhand now, that is fine.

I expect RAH guys to grow some COURAGE and DEMAND what is right:

1) PAY and Benefits for aircraft operated.
2) Pay and Benefits for the outstanding professional group you have.
3) AND to take care of the MIDWEST PILOTS, especially the junior ones who got screwed by their senior pilots.

Lets make it work.

CYA

See, now what you said makes sense to me. I guess I was viewing things from a different perspective. We (native RAH) didn't do this to you (YX,F9,Lynx). Our collective mgmt groups did.

At the end of the day, I think what transpired was bad for everyone, including the native RAH pilot group and especially bad for the FO's like myself. See, we were hired at a regional where we expected to bide our time, take our upgrade as CA's moved on, and then move on ourselves. In our wake the regional life-cycle continues. Hire on, low FO pay, low CA pay, get hired at a "real" airline. That's all been upset. We were hired on but all of a sudden, CA's are no longer "moving on." Many have decided to hang-out b/c why go to the bottom of another seniority list when the airbus and 190 that you could be flying there have come to you and your current seniority list. While you won't fly the airbus for at least 5 years and probably closer to 10+, at least it's now a possibility and you don't have to give up seniority/pay. That leaves the FO's stuck at a job that went from a regional upgrade timeframe to a national/LCC upgrade timeframe...but we're still stuck with the BS pay and workrules that come at a regional. We're all very, VERY aware that that has to change with this upcoming contract which is why we are all preparing for the inevitable need to strike (my strike fund is growing daily and I hope that's the case for everyone).

I truly feel bad for the YX FO's who will likely come over as FO's but at a far lower pay scale than what they left. Sure, it's a paycheck, but it's a bad paycheck to be doing the same thing you were doing last year. That's business and while I didn't do it to you and neither did any native RAH pilot, at least I understand the rawness of that deal. Meanwhile the masterminds behind it all sit around happy as could be that the pilots are at each others' throats. Divide and conquer.

 

[starchkr]

See, now what you said makes sense to me. I guess I was viewing things from a different perspective. We (native RAH) didn't do this to you (YX,F9,Lynx). Our collective mgmt groups did.

At the end of the day, I think what transpired was bad for everyone, including the native RAH pilot group and especially bad for the FO's like myself. See, we were hired at a regional where we expected to bide our time, take our upgrade as CA's moved on, and then move on ourselves. In our wake the regional life-cycle continues. Hire on, low FO pay, low CA pay, get hired at a "real" airline. That's all been upset. We were hired on but all of a sudden, CA's are no longer "moving on." Many have decided to hang-out b/c why go to the bottom of another seniority list when the airbus and 190 that you could be flying there have come to you and your current seniority list. While you won't fly the airbus for at least 5 years and probably closer to 10+, at least it's now a possibility and you don't have to give up seniority/pay. That leaves the FO's stuck at a job that went from a regional upgrade timeframe to a national/LCC upgrade timeframe...but we're still stuck with the BS pay and workrules that come at a regional. We're all very, VERY aware that that has to change with this upcoming contract which is why we are all preparing for the inevitable need to strike (my strike fund is growing daily and I hope that's the case for everyone).

I truly feel bad for the YX FO's who will likely come over as FO's but at a far lower pay scale than what they left. Sure, it's a paycheck, but it's a bad paycheck to be doing the same thing you were doing last year. That's business and while I didn't do it to you and neither did any native RAH pilot, at least I understand the rawness of that deal. Meanwhile the masterminds behind it all sit around happy as could be that the pilots are at each others' throats. Divide and conquer.

This is why I dont like the idea of any RAH pilot going above any F9 pilot during SLI. You knew what your expectations were going into the regional, and now "some" of you are expecting a quick and easy jump over into the bus without taking the hit that the rest of us took when we "moved on" to another carrier.