Dal ae

[ACL65PILOT]

Agreed, Hockey. The simple fact that they are having a hard time running a summer sked is great. That means that furloughs just would not make a bid of sense. Now that could change, but for now they see growth.

 

[av8tor76]

i kinda agree with twobits..we won't hire till senior guys start fading ..no furloughs.

 

[twobits]

ACL65PILOT, I admire your optimism. BTW, the JAL deal is bad for Delta pilots. This would allow them to fly all routes out of Tokyo with JAL - not DAL pilots. Therefore, all Far east flights will be JAL, except ATL-NRT and DTW-HKG IMHO.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

ACL65PILOT, I admire your optimism. BTW, the JAL deal is bad for Delta pilots. This would allow them to fly all routes out of Tokyo with JAL - not DAL pilots. Therefore, all Far east flights will be JAL, except ATL-NRT and DTW-HKG IMHO.

I will state that you are wrong on both accounts. Unless our union gives away our NRT slots they are contractual. I do not see our union doing that. We will get most of the NRT America, and South America routes, AF-KLM will do most but not all of Europe, and we will both do some of the North South like we do now.

I know it is hard to see but a deal with JAL and a JAL that is shrinking their international footprint, is one that we WANT a deal with. I know why? Well, we get their premium international traffic on our coded flights. That is worth billions in revenue for DAL in the AF deal and will be worth billions in the JAL deal. I get that we need to convert that for you and I the pilots in to green in our wallets. Simply put, a deal like this is good for our cash flow and revenue stream as a company, and therefore good for us. Long term here. In effect slower growth that is sustainable versus rapid short term grown is what we will see. I know you want quick growth but if we are going to do that and not take JAL in to the alliance, then guess what it will not last and we will hire then furlough. Simple truths.

As for hiring, wrong again. I will use the submissive, and probably because nothing is ever set in stone, but there are jets coming that are not staffed and we do not have the staffing for. They will require new hires to staff. Add the jets in the desert that will be brought back starting late this year, and we will need bodies from here on out. Three months from now this will be a lot clearer to everyone.

 

[twobits]

Maybe you are right, who knows. One thing is for sure, pilot's don't know! Management does, and they have a plan they are not sharing with us (for good reason - don't want to show their hand). How many mergers have we seen in the last 50 years.... don't answer that, it's impossible. How many mergers have happened in the last 50 years where any hiring happened in the successive 3 years? I don't know the answer, but it probably gives a good indication as to what we can expect at Delta. Just because the company is making more money, does not mean they are going to hand it out to it's employees willingly, that is what the contract is for. However, right you are that it is easier to get a better contract when DL is making money.

New airplanes are coming, and old airplanes are leaving. What does that net? I don't know that either.... the -9's will be gone sooner than later. The new airplanes are Big RJ's, flown by TBD - but DAL MEC better be ready for whipsaw between DAL and Regionals. The aircraft in the desert have new paint jobs on them, but that doesn't mean they are coming out anytime soon..... 767's and 757's are getting very old and tired, but are still good aircraft.

Routes that Delta and JAL fly that overlap can be eliminated by codesharing. For example, pull out your two route maps. NRT to these cities will be codeshare cities with JAL - HKG, SIN, BKK, SGN, MNL, TPE, SFO, JFK, CHI, PVG, PEK. The Korean flights to Narita will be codeshare with KE. DTW, ATL, SLC and LAX will likely stay Delta. HNL and GUM will be up for grabs between the two; probably still going to JAL. Say it ain't so? well, it might be. How much confidence do you have in your contract to save these jobs and routes? What about in the negotiating leverage DAL MEC has? Right now, the company is stragegically placing itself where it wants, and is the time for the MEC to step up and ensure DAL jobs are not lost (i.e. furlough).

 

[Ridgeback]

Reading these post there are always refrences to BIG RJ's being flown by TBD, get ready for the whipsaw. I thought the line had been drawn, no more 76 seat jets at Mesaba, COmpass, ect. Also didn't a crj900/190 and 195 pay scale just get put inplace at DELTA. It would seem to me that mgt has nothing to offer that would convince mailine guys to let those 76-100 seat jets go anywhere other than DELTA??

 

[twobits]

valid point Ridgeback. Hopefully, there will be no snafu's getting these aircraft on property when the time nears (as the -9's exit the fleet)! Work needs to be done on this payscale, as previously mentioned; but those are still jobs that will keep people working in tougher times - not today, because Delta management has been more optimistic than ever lately; and rightly so.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Look at the Western Merger. DAL hired. Pan Am they furloughed.

This is just based on what I am seeing, and I will give you that what I am seeing is a lot different that many.

As for the 100 seat jet. It will be at mainline. If not the wrong ppl are doing the work.

There are airplanes and they are calling them growth jets.

Just give it a few months.

 

[twobits]

ACL65PILOT,

Ron Allen is gone. NWA management is here. Remember what they did to the NWA mechanics? I understand that when you drink too much Kool-aid, sometimes you get a sugar high and get excited. If you are telling your buddies at regional's that there will be a job at Delta for them, then I'd probably start setting their expectations lower. Chances are, AA will hire before Delta (assuming only 75% of AA/TWA furloughees take their jobs back). History shows there is always a cycle, and that cycle is wierd. Delta hires a lot of guys, and then furloughs a bunch. look at it yourself. It is probably going to be a few years before any hiring, just lay that line down and if it's sooner, then great!

to be clear: THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF AIRLINE PILOTS. Do not create an artificial void. Supply/demand - management understands this in all aspects of their business, and right now they know there will not be a supply problem on the pilot side for a long time = bad for us. Don't make the chasm any bigger.

"No man, XXXXX isn't going to hire for 5 years, maybe longer"

is a good way to start negotiating your next contract!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

This is not Kool-Aid. Just stating what I am seeing. You points are good, just not where the ones that have their hands on the wheels see things going.

Trust me I can be a glass half full type of guy, but it generally does not good.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Twobits;

The company has figured out another way to limit our expectations for 2012. The need to pay down debt. We can be growing and hiring but not be able to afford to pay us more. With 17.5 billion in debt they will use this little fact at the table.

 

[JOPILOT]

Maybe Richard and Ed can kick in a few million! Or better yet raise the ticket prices above Greyhound's fares. JP

 

[GOULET!]

AA hires before Delta?! I highly doubt that. AA won't be hiring til 2013-2014 at the earliest. Delta will have 500 new hires by then.

 

[twobits]

Every time you fly with a Captain, ask them if they have ever been furloughed. Do the math, and figure out the chances of Delta hiring or furloughing over the next few years. History repeats itself. What do you think they are going to do with that 20% surplus of pilots next fall?

 

[lookin4better]

I for one would be happy to get hired at Delta for the chance to get furloughed....it is part of reality in the industry.....and I have a decent job right now, but I would still take the chance.... that's life!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Every time you fly with a Captain, ask them if they have ever been furloughed. Do the math, and figure out the chances of Delta hiring or furloughing over the next few years. History repeats itself. What do you think they are going to do with that 20% surplus of pilots next fall?

This company cannot seasonally furlough. If we lose JAL I will admit that with this last bid they will finally be set up to furlough. Doing this bid sets us up very well to furlough and or go the other direction. I see where your pessimism stems from, really I do.

I get my optimism from a few places, namely timely information from those that make the decisions. I would have sworn we were going to furlough last Feb when we cut capacity the last time. The opted not too, not because they are nice guys, but because they just could not predict what the future would hold and could not guarantee that doing so would save them money.

This JAL deal has major implications for us. Don't get it, I will bet you are correct as we will not need a lot of the feed to the Asian gateway cities, but if we do get it, we will need more bodies to perform more flying. The stuff that is just waiting for the decision on this will change you tune if and when it becomes public. I for one want the deal to go though. It will mean long term sustainable growth and revenue in all four corners of the globe.

FWIW, here at DAL -S we have furoughees from 90-91 and 2000-2001. Twice DAL has furloughed. Most of the CA's above the bottom of the 73N were never furloughed. I get you point and the statistics you are using. We are big and have excess, but looking into 2011 and beyond there is demand For that reason, they cannot break even on it.

 

[ugasucks]

Acl65, with all due respect Delta has had 3 furloughs. They like to say the one in '73 was not but ask any of those guys it was. They were making less then the rampers they worked next too. Trust me in their eyes it was a furoulgh. So please respect the one who came before us! Now back to JAL going bankrupt.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

JAL turnaround plan eyes move to Delta group: report

"JAL turnaround plan eyes move to Delta group: report


2:27pm EST
TOKYO (Reuters) - A state-backed fund in charge of turning around Japan Airlines (JAL) <9205.T> wants to see a tieup between JAL and Delta Air Lines <DAL.N>, Kyodo news reported on Monday.
The Enterprise Turnaround Initiative Corp of Japan (ETIC) has proposed in its restructuring plan that JAL form a business tieup with Delta with no capital injected by the American carrier, Kyodo said, citing unidentified sources close to the matter.
The report said ETIC eyed a switch to the Delta-led global SkyTeam alliance in April 2011.
The fund has estimated that an alliance with Delta would give JAL an annual benefit of 17.2 billion yen ($186 million), three times more than what expanded ties with American Airlines <AMR.N> would offer.
JAL is currently a member of the Oneworld alliance with American.
JAL, Asia's largest airline by revenue, will likely file for bankruptcy this month as part of a state-led restructuring, sources have told Reuters.
As JAL appears headed for bankruptcy, Delta and American have been courting it with rival offers of financial aid, eager to gain access to its routes to fast-growing Asian markets and to get a stronger foothold in Japan.
JAL had been aiming to decide this month whether to keep ties with American in the Oneworld alliance or join hands with Delta and the rival SkyTeam group.
However, Transport Minister Seiji Maehara said on Friday a decision would likely be delayed.
(Reporting by Chris Gallagher; editing by Karen Foster)
($1 = 92.48 yen)

© Thomson Reuters 2009. All rights reserved. Users may download and print extracts of content from this website for their own personal and non-commercial use only. Republication or redistribution of Thomson Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Thomson Reuters. Thomson Reuters and its logo are registered trademarks or trademarks of the Thomson Reuters group of companies around the world.
Thomson Reuters journalists are subject to an Editorial Handbook which requires fair presentation and disclosure of relevant interests."

--------------------------------------------------
"Rehab body wants JAL to tie with Delta

Plan includes making move to SkyTeam in April 2011
Kyodo News
The government-backed body in charge of turning around Japan Airlines intends to include in its rehabilitation plan a tieup between JAL and Delta Air Lines and have the struggling carrier switch to the SkyTeam alliance in April 2011, sources said Monday.
Under the plan being readied by the Enterprise Turnaround Initiative Corp. of Japan, JAL would also have to cut 15,600 jobs, or about 30 percent of its group workforce, by the business year through March 2013, the sources said.
ETIC is calculating that an alliance with Delta, the largest U.S. airline, would lead to a projected annual benefit of ¥17.2 billion, three times larger than what an expanded alliance with American Airlines would offer.
The benefit per year with American is estimated at ¥5.4 billion. American and JAL are both currently members of the oneworld alliance.
ETIC wants JAL to tie up with Delta without receiving capital from the U.S. airline, the sources said.
In recent months, both Delta and American have been wooing cash-strapped JAL with competing offers of financial aid.
No Japanese airline is a member of the SkyTeam alliance, which has more routes connecting Japan and Asia than does the oneworld alliance. Japan's other big airline, All Nippon Airways Co., is a member of the Star Alliance grouping.
As JAL prepares to file for a court-backed bankruptcy, ETIC is also highly likely to have the company delisted from the stock market.
ETIC had been trying to find a way to avoid a delisting because a high number of individual investors own shares in the airline. It eventually decided on the delisting after judging it wouldn't be able to get JAL's key creditor banks to agree to a debt waiver.
Transport minister Seiji Maehara is set to meet Tuesday with top executives of the banks to try to seek their understanding about JAL filing for bankruptcy and their continued support for the airline.
Under the turnaround plan, JAL and Delta would file for antitrust immunity for Japan-U.S. routes under the open skies agreement the two nations recently signed, the sources said.
JAL aims to beef up international routes at Tokyo's Haneda airport, where a fourth runway due to open in October will increase the number of flights. It intends to open a Haneda-Los Angeles route in fiscal 2011 and connect JAL with routes of the SkyTeam alliance.
ETIC plans to decide on its bailout package for JAL as early as Jan. 19, at the same time it will have the airline file for court protection under the Corporate Rehabilitation Law.
According to an estimate by ETIC, the carrier's liabilities exceed its assets by more than ¥860 billion, the sources said.
Under court protection, ETIC plans to reduce ¥730 billion of JAL's liabilities and invest ¥300 billion in the carrier so its assets exceed its liabilities by more than ¥160 billion, the sources said.
The government and ETIC are also arranging for 77-year-old Kazuo Inamori, honorary chairman of Kyocera Corp., to become chief executive officer of JAL during the turnaround process, they added.
Inamori is not only known for his management skills in bolstering Kyocera into one of the nation's leading electronic parts makers, but also for having rare close ties within the business community with the Democratic Party of Japan.
Even after bankruptcy proceedings, the government-backed body will guarantee more than ¥470 billion in receivables for payments of fuel and other commercial transactions necessary to keep JAL flying, they added. The carrier's creditor banks will be required to waive about ¥350 billion, out of approximately ¥430 billion in unsecured bank loans.
ETIC estimates JAL's consolidated operating loss will expand to about ¥265.1 billion for the current business year, compared with a year-earlier loss of ¥50.88 billion, due to a drop in passengers.

The Japan Times: Tuesday, Jan. 12, 2010
(C) All rights reserved


Go back to The Japan Times Online "

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Looks like a possible tie-up, but no large investments.

Here's something a little fresher...
http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2010/01/11/daily17.html


Japan Airlines will cut 15,600 jobs — one-third of its work force — and reject investment from Delta Air Lines Inc. and American Airlines.
News services said Sunday and Monday that the financially troubled JAL is expected to file for bankruptcy as early as next week and begin a three-year, government-led turnaround.
The carrier’s problems stem from a significant decline in international business travel and debt that exceeds $9.5 billion.
The state-backed Enterprise Turnaround Initiative Corp. of Japan will decline cash offers from American Airlines ($1.4 billion) and Delta and SkyPartners ($1 billion) because it is concerned that a foreign stake in JAL would complicate the carrier’s restructuring.
Instead, JAL will seek greater cooperation with either American, which is owned by AMR Corp. (NASDAQ: AMR) or Atlanta-based Delta (NYSE: DAL) after February.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Acl65, with all due respect Delta has had 3 furloughs. They like to say the one in '73 was not but ask any of those guys it was. They were making less then the rampers they worked next too. Trust me in their eyes it was a furoulgh. So please respect the one who came before us! Now back to JAL going bankrupt.

Fine, but it does not detract from my point.