Delta AE

[another cfii]

For my Northern brothers. Do you know off hand what's the demographics like for the junior MSP A320 pilots? Are there THAT many junior commuters out of the west coast that are eyeing to go to SLC? I've heard it both ways. Since only those being affected (MDed) can bump us out of SLC, I just wanna see a show of hands if anybody can give me an idea...

Thanks.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Well the memo was out as published.

 

[FBN0223]

For my Northern brothers. Do you know off hand what's the demographics like for the junior MSP A320 pilots? Are there THAT many junior commuters out of the west coast that are eyeing to go to SLC? I've heard it both ways. Since only those being affected (MDed) can bump us out of SLC, I just wanna see a show of hands if anybody can give me an idea...

Thanks.

MSP has considerably lower percentage of pilots who commute than DTW, but for those who live out west and are too junior for the SEA A330, MSP is the next logical choice. I fly the B757 from the west coast to MSP frequently, and it seems we always have B757/A320 pilots on board commuting. My guess is that, if given the opportunity, many from the west coast will bid in to SLC if LAX is not an option. I've been thinking about SLC myself, but it's difficult at best, to figure out how this big AE will go down. Good luck.

 

[Truckdriver]

For my Northern brothers. Do you know off hand what's the demographics like for the junior MSP A320 pilots? Are there THAT many junior commuters out of the west coast that are eyeing to go to SLC? I've heard it both ways. Since only those being affected (MDed) can bump us out of SLC, I just wanna see a show of hands if anybody can give me an idea...

Thanks.

If your on the 90 now, anyone can bump you out of SLC not just MD'd guys from MSP because the 320 category will be a new category open for anyone to bid. If your on the 90 you will be MD'd so you can bump anyone off the 757 or 737 in SLC if they are junior to you, but any DAL-N guy can bid an AE for the 320 and if he is senior to you, your MD won't matter because it can only be used to go into a category if someone is junior to you. I think that is the way this will work since it will be a new category. I'm guessing what we'll see is any DAL-N 320 or -9 guy who commutes to MSP from west of Denver bid the 320 in SLC. Those few junior 320 and -9 guys who get an MD in MSP could use those to get into LA, but all the other guys will only have the option of going for an AE into the SLC 320 category. It doesn't look good for the current SLC 90 guys. I'm hoping to stay in SLC, but choice number two is to MD to the 320 in MSP and hope to be relatively more senior there. Thought I had it made two years ago when I got awarded SLC and could drive to work, now I'll be back to commuting unless there aren't as many DAL-N guys as we think trying to get into SLC.

 

[another cfii]

If your on the 90 now, anyone can bump you out of SLC not just MD'd guys from MSP because the 320 category will be a new category open for anyone to bid. If your on the 90 you will be MD'd so you can bump anyone off the 757 or 737 in SLC if they are junior to you, but any DAL-N guy can bid an AE for the 320 and if he is senior to you, your MD won't matter because it can only be used to go into a category if someone is junior to you. I think that is the way this will work since it will be a new category. I'm guessing what we'll see is any DAL-N 320 or -9 guy who commutes to MSP from west of Denver bid the 320 in SLC. Those few junior 320 and -9 guys who get an MD in MSP could use those to get into LA, but all the other guys will only have the option of going for an AE into the SLC 320 category. It doesn't look good for the current SLC 90 guys. I'm hoping to stay in SLC, but choice number two is to MD to the 320 in MSP and hope to be relatively more senior there. Thought I had it made two years ago when I got awarded SLC and could drive to work, now I'll be back to commuting unless there aren't as many DAL-N guys as we think trying to get into SLC.

Thanks for clarifying that for me. I knew it was too good to be true. I think i'll bid the -9 in MSP, and get it over with. (At least i'll be able to hold a line, sigh...) I figure the training from a relatively hi-tech aircraft, ie 738 to the maddawg was an eye opener, so what's more if i lose the Autothrottle and FMS as well =P

I know we're not gonna get any sympathy from anybody around here, so we better suck it up, and get used to the long"er" commute... FYI, I know quite a few senior SLC90 guys will bail SLC all together, especially those DFW refugees. To them, the commute from MSP is almost the same, plus they won't need to re-train. But that won't be enough to stop the influx from the north.

 

[Sedona16]

Thanks for clarifying that for me. I knew it was too good to be true. I think i'll bid the -9 in MSP, and get it over with. (At least i'll be able to hold a line, sigh...) I figure the training from a relatively hi-tech aircraft, ie 738 to the maddawg was an eye opener, so what's more if i lose the Autothrottle and FMS as well =P

I know we're not gonna get any sympathy from anybody around here, so we better suck it up, and get used to the long"er" commute... FYI, I know quite a few senior SLC90 guys will bail SLC all together, especially those DFW refugees. To them, the commute from MSP is almost the same, plus they won't need to re-train. But that won't be enough to stop the influx from the north.

Sigh, wish we could undo this merger.

 

[FBN0223]

Sigh, wish we could undo this merger.

Don't we all!!!!

 

[KCPilot]

Thanks for clarifying that for me. I knew it was too good to be true. I think i'll bid the -9 in MSP, and get it over with. (At least i'll be able to hold a line, sigh...) I figure the training from a relatively hi-tech aircraft, ie 738 to the maddawg was an eye opener, so what's more if i lose the Autothrottle and FMS as well =P

When I was in training last month on the 738, we were complaining about the "fire hose" training we got. The instructors and FAA guy stated that NW still has the 6 week program like the old Delta training program. So those of us that will be heading to the DC-9 will at least have time to re-learn the steam gauge stuff!

 

[Lucky Strike]

When I was in training last month on the 738, we were complaining about the "fire hose" training we got. The instructors and FAA guy stated that NW still has the 6 week program like the old Delta training program. So those of us that will be heading to the DC-9 will at least have time to re-learn the steam gauge stuff!

When I got checked out on the -9 two yrs ago, I was in and out of the school house in a months time.

 

[filejw]

When I got checked out on the -9 two yrs ago, I was in and out of the school house in a months time.

i think 28 days is the goal...

 

[JOPILOT]

another cfii,

I am in the same boat as you! Although, do not give up hope yet that we might be able to hang on to the bottom of SLC...I have a feeling the bottom of SLC lists (reserve slots) will stay relatively junior since-- why would someone living in the west be willing to sit reserve in SLC if they can be a line holder further east? As a former 8- year commuter I know I would much rather have a further commute to a line than a shorter commute to reserve. Also, I know that a large portion of the SLC FO's on the MD90 are commuters and if they qualify their displacements to stay in the top 75% or 70% (lately) to guarantee a line they will be leaving the base as well, only to be replaced by someone incrementally more senior from the North that is more inclined to commute to SLC than say MSP...either way, maybe I will see you in the crew room in MSP or hopefully we can continue to scrape along the bottom of SLC until age 65 kicks in and we get some cushion...time will tell. We can't undo the merger now, so lets get it on and build some circular driveways in ATL! It may suck now, but look at it this way--we may have lost the battle but we won the war, just look at the seniority list! LOL

JP

 

[Truckdriver]

another cfii,

I am in the same boat as you! Although, do not give up hope yet that we might be able to hang on to the bottom of SLC...I have a feeling the bottom of SLC lists (reserve slots) will stay relatively junior since-- why would someone living in the west be willing to sit reserve in SLC if they can be a line holder further east? As a former 8- year commuter I know I would much rather have a further commute to a line than a shorter commute to reserve. Also, I know that a large portion of the SLC FO's on the MD90 are commuters and if they qualify their displacements to stay in the top 75% or 70% (lately) to guarantee a line they will be leaving the base as well, only to be replaced by someone incrementally more senior from the North that is more inclined to commute to SLC than say MSP...either way, maybe I will see you in the crew room in MSP or hopefully we can continue to scrape along the bottom of SLC until age 65 kicks in and we get some cushion...time will tell. We can't undo the merger now, so lets get it on and build some circular driveways in ATL! It may suck now, but look at it this way--we may have lost the battle but we won the war, just look at the seniority list! LOL

JP

I think you are correct JP. I'm planning on getting booted to MSP, although hoping to stay in SLC. There are alot of different factors that may keep the 320 junior in SLC. Another factor you have is someone commuting to MSP is flying out of a base with 350-ish pilots in each seat on the 320. A senior guy who commutes from the west coast may still have a better QOL commuting to MSP where there is a larger pilot group instead of commuting to SLC where there will be under 90 pilots per seat. Getting commutable trips with a 3 hour commute is still better than getting uncommutable trips with a 1 hour commute. As far as MSP goes, all but the bottom 8 90B guys in SLC could hold 320B in MSP right now. I'd be willing to bet money that if you do get booted to MSP, you could hold onto the 90 and not have to worry about the -9. I'm just hoping that the increase in NB flying lets most people stay where they want to. If not, we'll just be commuting for a year or two, which most of us have already done once before. It could be much worse than having to commute for awhile.

 

[Truckdriver]

we may have lost the battle but we won the war, just look at the seniority list! LOL

JP

That is why I can't complain too much. Once Dec 14 2012 comes and the DAL-N retirements kick in, we are much better off with the combined list than we would have been without it. However, this may all be a moot point because the world will end seven days later when the planets align, solar flares cook the earth, and the Yellowstone super volcano erupts on us.

 

[ExAF]

SLC Bus

I don't have any hard numbers to back this up, but my gut (backed up by limited conversations with MSP based bus drivers) tells me that if you want to stay at SLC, you will be able to stay there. I just don't think there are that many DAL-N guys that want to go there. If you are willing to sit reserve there, then I definitely don't think you will have a problem. Good luck either way.

 

[Truckdriver]

I don't have any hard numbers to back this up, but my gut (backed up by limited conversations with MSP based bus drivers) tells me that if you want to stay at SLC, you will be able to stay there. I just don't think there are that many DAL-N guys that want to go there. If you are willing to sit reserve there, then I definitely don't think you will have a problem. Good luck either way.

SLC really isn't a very commuter friendly base. Once some of the west coast guys really look at it, it might not be as good as it seems. It's great if you life here, but alot of the west coast cities have mostly RJ service into SLC. When faced with 5 mainline flights per day to MSP vs. a bunch of RJ's to SLC, I'd know I'd be getting on a mainline jet and commuting to MSP where there is a larger pilot base with more options.

 

[another cfii]

For me, if i can't hold anything but the kitchen sink in either LAX/SLC, i'll do ultra short call if they let me (insert sound of cat being dragged with claws screeching the carpet). If i get MDed to MSP, I'll go for the -9 as top choice, as it's my best chance of holding a line, and then I'll just go for the dollar sign. I have no qualms of going back to MSP in frigid Mar/Apr for training. I'll just be sure to practice my instrument scanning technique flying my homemade flight sim before I show up to class.

Another question. MD bids are run from the bottom to up, correct? If i put in a percentage qualifier of top 75%, and I was awarded the new category within the top 75%. And then the next senior MDed pilot also put in identical % qualifier and was awarded. So essentially I will be bumped toward the bottom if there're enough guy in front of me that wants the same category, is that correct??

Thanks again.

 

[Truckdriver]

Another question. MD bids are run from the bottom to up, correct? If i put in a percentage qualifier of top 75%, and I was awarded the new category within the top 75%. And then the next senior MDed pilot also put in identical % qualifier and was awarded. So essentially I will be bumped toward the bottom if there're enough guy in front of me that wants the same category, is that correct??

Thanks again.

I think MD's are run in seniority order, but converted and sent to training in inverse order. So, the above scenario should not be an issue. However, since this AE/VD/MD system is virtually impossible to understand I could be completely wrong. I'm actually starting to think that a commute to MSP if I can hold a line on the 320 might be better than reserve in SLC. If one does that, you could get a line in MSP, then WS and GS out of base in SLC and life might be better than reserve. Just my latest thought that will change by tomorrow.

 

[Monster Buck]

That is why I can't complain too much. Once Dec 14 2012 comes and the DAL-N retirements kick in, we are much better off with the combined list than we would have been without it. However, this may all be a moot point because the world will end seven days later when the planets align, solar flares cook the earth, and the Yellowstone super volcano erupts on us.

Retirements in 2012? only 1000 mand. ret. between now and 2016. Could be worse I guess but not very many until 8-10 years from now.

 

[JOPILOT]

I think VD are run first and trained first, followed by MD awarded in inverse order and trained in seniority order and then superceded by AE in seniority order in the end???
I am confused too...I have read the newsletter and the contract a few times, all in all it is most important to be confident on the % you are OK with in the categories you bid...Sorry for all the outloud mental masterbation. JP

 

[Truckdriver]

Retirements in 2012? only 1000 mand. ret. between now and 2016. Could be worse I guess but not very many until 8-10 years from now.

Technically it's 2013 because the age 65 retirements hit in Dec 2012. 100-200 per year starting in 2013 is better than the 7-8 per year we have had the last few years. Even just 100 widebody guys leaving per year makes life for the junior guy noticably better. If we had 100 per year leaving the last two years we would be running classes with newhires right now. In 8-10 years I think we will hit crisis mode because we see some years with close to 900 retirments.

 

[Truckdriver]

I am confused too...

Don't worry, it happens alot go guys who ride Cannondales!

 

[JOPILOT]

Don't worry, it happens alot go guys who ride Cannondales!

Especially the ones with a lefty shock in the front like mine...I about toppled over in my chair! I do miss my Fuel...maybe next time.

 

[Superpilot92]

Retirements in 2012? only 1000 mand. ret. between now and 2016. Could be worse I guess but not very many until 8-10 years from now.

roughly 4000+ pilots are expected to retire in the next 10ish years fwiw

 

[Sinca3]

roughly 4000+ pilots are expected to retire in the next 10ish years fwiw

Wow, and I still won't be within 50%

 

[KCPilot]

When I got checked out on the -9 two yrs ago, I was in and out of the school house in a months time.

Wow, I see I was WRONG again here...I guess this is why I stopped posting! I guess It's bad when the FAA is even lying to ya!

 

[Superpilot92]

Wow, and I still won't be within 50%

Those numbers assume that every pilot flies to 63 or 65. Most won't take it till the last possible day. Alps and company both think the ache guy will go to 62.5. So who knows but the chances are that that 4000+ number will happen faster than 10 years and the numbers will easily exceed this. We'll see

 

[hockeypilot44]

Those numbers assume that every pilot flies to 63 or 65. Most won't take it till the last possible day. Alps and company both think the ache guy will go to 62.5. So who knows but the chances are that that 4000+ number will happen faster than 10 years and the numbers will easily exceed this. We'll see

Those numbers also assume we keep the same amount of pilots. I think we'll be lucky to still have 10,000 pilots on property in 10 years.

 

[FBN0223]

Those numbers also assume we keep the same amount of pilots. I think we'll be lucky to still have 10,000 pilots on property in 10 years.

Bingo!!!!! When most of us started at NWA, we had no RJs(except for a small number of Avrojets). Flying on one of our regionals meant getting onboard a SAAB 340 to complete the last leg of your cross-country journey from MSP to Rhinelander. Now you can complete your cross-country journey via Delta without every flying on a DL jet.

Delta AE? This upcoming AE would have included EMB175 Capt. and FO positions at pay rates that would have made these positions attractive to those near the bottom. Instead ALPA decided to buy into, and sell fear, "Steenland Style." Our flying is now done by pilots who work for pennies on the dollar with the promise of flowing someday up to "Big D."

For the 63% of you who bought the program and voted for the McClain/Steenland/Dollaway contract, I hope you had a period of arduous self-examination. Hopefully that included a few mornings of getting up, looking in the mirror, and saying, "I suck."

This whole chain of events will very likely replay itself. Here you go boys....more money, improved job security, and no furlough clauses, we just need some scope relief.

I hope that the 63% have seen the light.

 

[clippyrip]

Bingo!!!!! When most of us started at NWA, we had no RJs(except for a small number of Avrojets). Flying on one of our regionals meant getting onboard a SAAB 340 to complete the last leg of your cross-country journey from MSP to Rhinelander. Now you can complete your cross-country journey via Delta without every flying on a DL jet.

Delta AE? This upcoming AE would have included EMB175 Capt. and FO positions at pay rates that would have made these positions attractive to those near the bottom. Instead ALPA decided to buy into, and sell fear, "Steenland Style." Our flying is now done by pilots who work for pennies on the dollar with the promise of flowing someday up to "Big D."

For the 63% of you who bought the program and voted for the McClain/Steenland/Dollaway contract, I hope you had a period of arduous self-examination. Hopefully that included a few mornings of getting up, looking in the mirror, and saying, "I suck."

This whole chain of events will very likely replay itself. Here you go boys....more money, improved job security, and no furlough clauses, we just need some scope relief.

I hope that the 63% have seen the light.

That is an interesting statement coming from a relatively senior guy at NWA. While I agree that we need to vote down the upcoming scope relief that Richard is sure to ask for, I do not have faith in the pilot group as a whole. He will flash the cash and our group will sell out the 100 seater to Compass. Count on it.

My new worry is the upcoming JAL deal. If that goes through, you can kiss the Inter-Asia flying good bye. It will all be done by JAL. Probably will lose some of the US to Asia flying to them as well. It's a smart management move. Buy a majority of JAL and then codeshare their own business to themselves at a lower rate. Watch them trash JALs pensions too.

Not trying to be a cynic, just looking at what I would do if I was management.

 

[Truckdriver]

My new worry is the upcoming JAL deal. If that goes through, you can kiss the Inter-Asia flying good bye. It will all be done by JAL. Probably will lose some of the US to Asia flying to them as well.

Yep. I'm sure glad we picked up that "crown jewel" in the merger.