Irony

[netjetwife]

Nota, it was a literal reference to actual housecleaning. I was taught by my squeaky-clean mom that the ceiling, walls, floor order is the most efficient and cleanest when dusting/washing a room. It was used as an analogy to show agreement with the NJ folks who were/are expecting more cuts to come from the managerial side where there appears to be an excess supply. When a company has to cut costs and unneeded workers it does seem logical to start with those who are paid the most--hence the top down analogy.

Likewise, in an economic climate that makes owner satisfaction/retention a priority, it is a valid approach to start cut backs in an area further from their notice rather than areas that can immediately and negatively impact the client's experience.

Edit note: my post was a detailed response to the questions Nota deleted. Perhaps there are cleaning-challenged posters who can use the tip... The debate on where and when to cut has validity so I'll leave my post. NJW

 

[BeeDubya]

If NJA will not allow NJI to be involved in their union until intergration why would they expect NJI to furlough on a VSL along with NJA pilot's????
They should get on with the program of intergration if they want to include NJI in furlough's, (If that happen's)
It appears that the NJA union wants to include NJI only when it's to their advantage???? Am I missing something here????

A few thoughts.

First, the timing of the integration is in the company's hands at this point. The only way to accelerate the process is for the company to complete it. We wanted it completed over 4 years ago.

Second, the Union views furlough as a negotiated benefit (including recall order and deferral rights). The question lingers, what happens to NJI pilots who are laid off upon a recall? Do they get to come back at their old date of hire or bottom of the list? It would seem that if the company recognized the VSL for purposes of furlough, the Union would recognize it for purposes of recall, however, if the company did not utilize the VSL for furlough, the Union may not be inclined to recognize NJI pilots' DOH upon "recall."

Hope this helps,
Brian

 

[jenex]

I honestly cant speak on behalf of the union concerning this specific issue.

However... here are some thoughts.

• If the company furloughs off the VSL they are in fact recognizing the rights of ALL pilots on the VSL to return in proper order to NetJets once things turn around.
• NJI could "furlough" pilots and basically say "addios" with NO recall rights whatsoever (highly unlikely, but legal)
• Without using the VSL, NJI could furlough out of seniority order to defray training costs.
• A VSL furlough could actually help NJI pilots... lets say they need to furlough 15% across the board. Thats ruffly 500 guys on the VSL, thus eliminating around 33 of our guys. if they did 15% each side, it would eliminate more than that.

Just a few things that make you step back and think. The integration needs to happen sooner than later in my opinion. If the groups are to be merged, lets get it over with. This thing is dragging out worse than a College Lit. class.


Wolf

Wolf,

Just because NJA wants furloughs to happen via VSL, there is no reason for the company to manage it that way.
If you get terminated(ie furloughed) in a right to work state, you dont have any recall rights.

Then after the furlough and if recalls happpen, they would not go by the VSL.

NJASAP is only looking out for NJA pilots period, as they are required by law to do. Until you are part of the union you could not be represented by them in any sort of recall.

If its not in a contract it doesn't exist, period!

 

[BeeDubya]

Then after the furlough and if recalls happpen, they would not go by the VSL.

NJASAP is only looking out for NJA pilots period, as they are required by law to do. Until you are part of the union you could not be represented by them in any sort of recall.

Sort of. It is correct that NJASAP does not represent the NJI pilots until the company sends the final integration notice. However, the Seniority List is a negotiated benefit. Seniority lists vary from place to place, for example which types of management can stay on the list and for how long. NJASAP and NetJets managment could negotiate for returning NJI pilots after a furlough, if the final integration notice had been sent at that time.

 

[jenex]

Sort of. It is correct that NJASAP does not represent the NJI pilots until the company sends the final integration notice. However, the Seniority List is a negotiated benefit. Seniority lists vary from place to place, for example which types of management can stay on the list and for how long. NJASAP and NetJets managment could negotiate for returning NJI pilots after a furlough, if the final integration notice had been sent at that time.

BW,
Like I had said, only if its in writing before furlough. The final integration happening before furlough is unlikely IMHO.

 

[gunfyter]

BW,
Like I had said, only if its in writing before furlough. The final integration happening before furlough is unlikely IMHO.

If furloughs occur via the VSL, I think that will make the vsl, The seniority list in the eyes of any arbiter. On recall the vsl will then have to be used. Regardless of when final notification occurs. That's IMHO.

IOW, a furlough using the vsl IS Final Notification for practical purposes. It sets precedent that won't be ignored. Once again IMHO.

 

[netjetwife]

GF, That sounds logical to me and I agree that fairness would prevail. As to notification, the VSL pretty clearly stated the company's intention from the day it was created, IMO. A combined list would serve no purpose otherwise. I think the final notice may be just a formality when it arrives. The actual/mental acceptance will have already happened, for most of the pilots, by that time.

 

[BeeDubya]

BW,
Like I had said, only if its in writing before furlough. The final integration happening before furlough is unlikely IMHO.

I would agree that the final integration occurring before a potential furlough is unlikely. That said, the recall process for laid off NJI pilots would not have to be in writing prior to a furlough, although it would likely need to be in place before a recall.

 

[notapilot]

Nota, it was a literal reference to actual housecleaning. I was taught by my squeaky-clean mom that the ceiling, walls, floor order is the most efficient and cleanest when dusting/washing a room. It was used as an analogy to show agreement with the NJ folks who were/are expecting more cuts to come from the managerial side where there appears to be an excess supply. When a company has to cut costs and unneeded workers it does seem logical to start with those who are paid the most--hence the top down analogy.

Likewise, in an economic climate that makes owner satisfaction/retention a priority, it is a valid approach to start cut backs in an area further from their notice rather than areas that can immediately and negatively impact the client's experience.

Edit note: my post was a detailed response to the questions Nota deleted. Perhaps there are cleaning-challenged posters who can use the tip... The debate on where and when to cut has validity so I'll leave my post. NJW

BS. This not what you meant and my erased message has nothing at all to do with this message you wrote. Like I said you are the worst type of hypocrite. It is starting to make sense why you are igonred at home and have to come on here starving for attention. You might think I am picking on you, but I am really concerned about you. The world is a beautiful place, go out and experience it. In your final days you will look back and realize that Netjets, unions, and FI really don't mean anything. I hope you find a peaceful balance in your life.

 

[jppt2000]

I honestly cant speak on behalf of the union concerning this specific issue.

However... here are some thoughts.

• If the company furloughs off the VSL they are in fact recognizing the rights of ALL pilots on the VSL to return in proper order to NetJets once things turn around.
• NJI could "furlough" pilots and basically say "addios" with NO recall rights whatsoever (highly unlikely, but legal)
• Without using the VSL, NJI could furlough out of seniority order to defray training costs.
• A VSL furlough could actually help NJI pilots... lets say they need to furlough 15% across the board. Thats ruffly 500 guys on the VSL, thus eliminating around 33 of our guys. if they did 15% each side, it would eliminate more than that.

Just a few things that make you step back and think. The integration needs to happen sooner than later in my opinion. If the groups are to be merged, lets get it over with. This thing is dragging out worse than a College Lit. class.


Wolf

Wow,
One of the biggest opponents of this merger, now sees the light.

 

[netjetwife]

Nota, where do I begin.... The analogy I used --and then explained further for your benefit-- is exactly what I meant. Start at the top and work down is a widely used, simple concept that can easily be applied to other tasks. In your deleted post you had asked who taught me that method and claimed that it made no sense and no one used it. Not so. Here's some more cleaning tips for you... http://homemanagement.suite101.com/article.cfm/topdown_wettodry_house_cleaning

Ignored at home?! Waaaay off on that one. When's he's home my husband usually has a lot of desk work to do and he enjoys having me in the study with him. I read and post. My husband is often too busy to follow the board(s) and he appreciates the fact that I can point him to threads/posts of interest and discuss industry events with him. With so many furloughed or at risk, moral support is very important these days.

Look-back thoughts: I can already see how far the NJA pilots have come, how many lives have been changed for the better, and the help they have given to other pilots. It has been worth it all and I'm proud of the contribution my family has made. In the end I'll be glad I supported an important cause instead of spending my board time watching TV.

I think it's important to build camaraderie within one's frac and also the industry. Close neighbors work together to build a stronger community. I value FI, but since it means nothing to you one has to wonder why you are posting here, Nota. Saying one thing and doing another sounds rather hypocritical to me....:erm:

 

[netjetwife]

Wow,
One of the biggest opponents of this merger, now sees the light.

Kudos to Wolf for helping to make the integration smoother. I think the more that different groups learn about each other, the more common-ground they will find. That's a good thing for all involved.

 

[RTRHD]

.

Like I said you are the worst type of hypocrite. It is starting to make sense why you are igonred at home and have to come on here starving for attention.

Come on man cut her some slack she is just trying to help. We are all in this together.


I know my grammar sucks or I miss spelled something.

 

[netjetwife]

RTRHD, thanks ... And I have no problem reading your posts. I can speak a little pilot lingo, but I'm even better at reading it...

 

[G200_PILOT]

Looking at the VSL, assuming that the magic number really IS 500, then you're looking at everyone that was hired in 2007 and 2008. Take away the bottom two guys on the VSL for obvious reasons, and we have 3305 pilots all together. If you take away 504 pilots, that's everyone hired after January 8, 2007. Out of that 504 pilots, 32 of them are NJI pilots. Even though that's a fairly small number, those 32 pilots are family and we need to make sure we take care of them.

I see a lot of names on that list I know and care about. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for them all. Never thought we'd be where we are today talking about the things we're talking about. Even if furloughs ARE coming, I hope they don't come prior to January. I'd like to see all my friends keep their jobs through the Holidays at least.

Prayers go out to all...

BTW... the "500" seems to be the most popular number. That's the ONLY reason I'm using it here. Don't know any more than anyone else here.

 

[Fozzy]

Even if furloughs ARE coming, I hope they don't come prior to January. I'd like to see all my friends keep their jobs through the Holidays at least.

I am not sure a Jan 1 or after furlough would necessarily be a good thing for everyone.

http://www.longfellowbenefits.com/Site/LEGISLATION/ARRAof2009COBRA/tabid/510/Default.aspx

 

[ultrarunner]

There is never a good time to let people go. The changes in COBRA notwithstanding, the sooner you let an employee know, the better.

There are no small furloughs or short-duration furloughs. The cost-benefit is just not there, and Warren's boys are wicked smart in that arena.

With that said, IMO, I would think 500 to 600 is plausible, especially given the fact that the parking of a significant portion of a fleet or two would coincide.

With that said, if the law sees that number as triggering a Warn Act notice, if I recall, anything over 500 is a 90-day notice. So that would be cutting it close on the current Cobra issue.

 

[G200_PILOT]

Ultra, I'm not up to speed on the workings of the WARN Act but if they do it in stages, then what type of notice would they need to give then? Say 250 now and 250 later.

Either way, I know what you guys are saying but those that I've talked to say that it would be nice to have a job through the holidays, that's all.

 

[ultrarunner]

Ultra, I'm not up to speed on the workings of the WARN Act but if they do it in stages, then what type of notice would they need to give then? Say 250 now and 250 later.

Either way, I know what you guys are saying but those that I've talked to say that it would be nice to have a job through the holidays, that's all.

Here is an excerpt G200:

Mass Layoff: A covered employer must give notice if there is to be a mass layoff which does not result from a plant closing, but which will result in an employment loss at the employment site during any 30-day period for 500 or more employees, or for 50-499 employees if they make up at least 33% of the employer's active workforce. Again, this does not count employees who have worked less than 6 months in the last 12 months or employees who work an average of less than 20 hours a week for that employer. These latter groups, however, are entitled to notice (discussed later).

An employer also must give notice if the number of employment losses which occur during a 30-day period fails to meet the threshold requirements of a plant closing or mass layoff, but the number of employment losses for 2 or more groups of workers, each of which is less than the minimum number needed to trigger notice, reaches the threshold level, during any 90-day period, of either a plant closing or mass layoff. Job losses within any 90-day period will count together toward WARN threshold levels, unless the employer demonstrates that the employment losses during the 90-day period are the result of separate and distinct actions and causes.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Either way, I know what you guys are saying but those that I've talked to say that it would be nice to have a job through the holidays, that's all.

Yes, it would. If they are going to F it would be nice if they waited until next year. People just don't hire at the end of the year, and the more time to bank money and allow the rest of the economy to recover (meaning more jobs) the better. Screw COBRA, I want a JOB.

 

[YankeeEcho]

Crew Reductions Math

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that NJI lost 16% of it's Pilots and 18.3% of it's Flight Attendants through the voluntary early-out process vs. 5.7% and 4.2% at NJA.
This suggests to me that NJI is closer to being 'right-sized' than NJA so further involuntary reductions may have to impact NJA more than NJI.
What is the flaw in this thinking?

 

[Pervis]

YE, the company has agreed to the VSL and would furlough by reverse seniority. Your logic would also apply to different fleets within NJA or NJI as well. It makes more sense to furlough the majority from a dying fleet like the Ultra, but many junior folks were hired into the newer fleets-Sovereign and Excell. Any furlough will wrong size a segment or two, while right sizing the overall company, if that's what they decide. Reverse seniority is the only fair way.

FWIW, another pilot flew the new boss recently, and was told pilots were not the problem. I don't believe we will furlough any more today than I did 6 months ago. Too costly to recover the costs of all the training and retraining associated with all the different types we fly. Then again, I've been wrong before.

 

[RTRHD]

I hope your info is right there Perv that would be great news.

 

[gunfyter]

Better news would be booming jet sales....

 

[Airboss]

Better news would be booming jet sales....

Just talked to a sales rep the other day. All I can say on this board is that sales are increasing, and people leaving due to the economy are decreasing.

 

[Rubber Ducky]

Just talked to a sales rep the other day. All I can say on this board is that sales are increasing, and people leaving due to the economy are decreasing.

I have heard the same... and then some

Prospects available resources are stabilizing and they are seeing this as an opportune time to make a purchase.

I'm not saying that the recession is over... but it could be over tomorrow.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

I'm not saying that the recession is over... but it could be over tomorrow.

And Iran is going to open a chain of Prissy Polly BBQ Pork stands in Tehran.


Look, I'm not trying to piss on the birthday cake... But when the 20 gazillion dollars we just spent has to get paid back and inflation takes over?

Yeah.. its going to be worse than it has the last 13 months. Whats really changed again? Nothing other than the Government printing money it cant backup.

 

[BeeDubya]

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that NJI lost 16% of it's Pilots and 18.3% of it's Flight Attendants through the voluntary early-out process vs. 5.7% and 4.2% at NJA.
This suggests to me that NJI is closer to being 'right-sized' than NJA so further involuntary reductions may have to impact NJA more than NJI.
What is the flaw in this thinking?

It would depend on how overstaffed NJI and NJA were. If NJI were more overstaffed than NJA, then even with a larger reduction (by percentage) NJA may be closer to being right-sized. You assume both were equally overstaffed (by percentage).

 

[doh]

I agree with this. I've said this before and I'll say it again; with pilots its about numbers not money. If you have x number of planes (demand), you need x number of pilots. Reducing pilot pay does nothing for the company.

I have to agree with both of you. On the airline side we negotiated pay cuts to "save jobs" (quote from management). The next day they laid off anyway, gave themselves bonuses for the savings from the paycuts, and laughed at us while giving us the one finger salute. X amount of demand equals X amount of pilots needed.

 

[doh]

Normal protocol for corporate downsizing. Get the managers to fire the workers then get the VPs to fire the managers. That way everyone's hands get dirty.

That sounds about right. The managers often know in advance that their positions are going away. They are offered a package if they stay until a certain date. This allows them to be there to cull the rest of the herd. My wife's last company did that.